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Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Five-fold path (Howard and Jon)

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  • Jonothan Abbott
    Rob Thanks very much for this passage from the Atthasalini, which is directly on point (more so perhaps than anything I have been able to find myself). ... If
    Message 1 of 160 , Aug 1, 2001
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      Rob

      Thanks very much for this passage from the Atthasalini, which is directly
      on point (more so perhaps than anything I have been able to find myself).

      --- robertkirkpatrick@... wrote: > --- In
      dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > ==============================
      > > I'm sorry to say that I find this idea very odd. What about
      > Right
      > > Livelihood and Right Speech? These are elements of cittas??? And
      > what of all
      > > the very conventional formulations of the 8-fold noble path in the
      > suttas?
      > > These are recent developments? If this is the Abhidhamma
      > understanding, then
      > > it sure seems that the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the Sutta Pitaka are
      > further
      > > apart than i had realized.
      > > Perhaps I am totally missing what you are saying. Please lead
      > me
      > out
      > > of my confusion!
      > >
      > > With metta,
      > > Howard
      > ________________
      > Dear Howard and Ji\on,
      > The following quote may be relevant here.
      > From the atthasalini, p204 where they talk about the fivefold
      > path:
      > "For althogh the pAth is eightfold, yet, in the wordly
      > consciousness the tthree abstinces are not obtained at one and
      > the same instant. hence it is said to be fivefold only. BUT it
      > may be objected, there is this scripture;'The path by which one
      > came is a phrase for the eightfold ariyan path'(samyutta 1v
      > 195)In this sutta the path of insight preceeding the
      > transcendental path is eightfold. now since the mundane path as
      > implied by the term 'path by which they came'is eightfold,
      > should it not be eightfold here also?'
      > Nay, it should not be. the suttanta teaching is carried out by
      > expounding. In this way he said, for instance, 'verily his
      > bodily acts, vocal acts and life were quite pure'(majhhimma 111
      > 289). BUT this abhidhamma teaching is bare teaching without
      > exposition. in the worldly consciousness the three abstinces are
      > not obtained at one and the same instant and therefore the Path
      > is fivefold"ENDQUOTE.
      >
      > It helps us to read the texts if we know that satipatthana and
      > the eighfold (fivefold) path are identical. A moment of
      > satipatthana is a moment of the fivefold path. it is the
      > beginning of insight into paramattha dhamma.
      > These things gradually become clearer to me over the years.
      > robert

      If I may expand a little for the sake of the other members interested in
      this thread.

      The passage confirms, as I read it, that only at supramundane moments do
      all 8 path factors arise together, while at mundane moments 5 path factors
      arise.

      I of course agree, as I think Rob is suggesting, that references in the
      suttas to 8-fold path moments (moments which must necessarily be
      supramundane) can be read as referring also to the mundane 5-fold
      version(ie. moments of satipatthana) in appropriate contexts. The point
      is though that we are talking about a moment of consciousness that is
      accompanied by the path-factors, and this makes it a moment of a quality
      quite different to that of any other kusala moment (such as, for example,
      a moment of jhana), since kusala moments that are not of the level of
      satipatthana (ie. are not path-factor moments) do not lead away from
      samsara but to continuation in the round of existence.

      This is why the emphasis of the Buddha's teaching should be seen in terms
      of the development of satipatthana rather than of other forms of kusala,
      although we do not for one moment neglect the latter since without them
      the opportunity for continued development of satipatthana (ie. continued
      rebirth in planes where the dhamma is alive) will not be there.

      Jon

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    • icarofranca
      Dear Jon: Jon: Icaro ... As the MahaBoddhisatta Gloria Gaynor could say off, I will survive! ... Jon: Always welcome (and anyone else, for that matter). ...
      Message 160 of 160 , Jan 22, 2004
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        Dear Jon:

        Jon: Icaro
        >
        > Good to be hearing from you again!

        -------------------------------------------------------------------

        As the MahaBoddhisatta Gloria Gaynor could say off,"I will survive!"

        ------------------------------------------------------------------

        Jon: Always welcome (and anyone else, for that matter).

        -------------------------------------------------------------------

        Connie had introduced me at other DS Group at yahoo's! Good girl!!!

        -------------------------------------------------------------------

        >
        > Well said (if I understand you correctly).

        --------------------------------------------------------------------

        With time and exercise I will shape ny English more and more!

        -------------------------------------------------------------------

        Jon: I'm not quite with you here, but I'm sure it's all good stuff!

        ----------------------------------------------------------------------

        Many people think that Kamma was teaching out by Buddha as a
        ultimate reality. Not at all!
        But it's a strong ground for any doctrine one can raise up.

        -------------------------------------------------------------------

        Jon: Thanks for the reminder of that source. Spot on! I'll keep it
        in
        > mind (or course, you're welcome to come in with a quote any itme)
        >
        > Nice talking to you again.

        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Keep boosting, man!

        Mettaya, Ícaro
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