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[dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry

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  • ken_aitch
    Hi Sarah, ... S: Ken H, you mentioned that he had heard many Dhamma-talks and practiced insight-development - maybe not in this lifetime..... . When it
    Message 1 of 106 , Apr 1, 2007
      Hi Sarah,

      -------------------
      S: > Ken H, you mentioned that 'he had heard many Dhamma-talks and
      practiced insight-development - maybe not in this lifetime.....'.
      When it comes to the attainment of insights (vipassana), I believe
      they occurred in the present lifetime after hearing the teachings.
      --------------------

      Yes, I see that now. When I wrote that, I hadn't read all of the
      links Han gave us, and so I didn't know whether Anaathapindika had
      heard about the Buddha and his teaching before he actually met him.
      If he had then (it stands to reason) he would have heard many Dhamma
      talks in that current lifetime, and he would have put into practice
      what he had heard. If he hadn't (as turns out to be the case), then
      maybe there was only the one Dhamma talk that he heard directly from
      the Buddha. And, of course, he would have put that into practice
      right there and then, while the talk continued.

      -----------------------
      S: > Of course, like the Theriis,
      all the 'ingredients' would have been in place and the supporting
      conditions developed in former Buddha-sasanas as you say.

      As for the 'talk specifically designed for the needs of a Stream-
      enterer', I'm not sure. The sotapanna is destined to become fully
      enlightened regardless of any talk. However, of course ariyan
      disciples appreciate hearing the dhamma more than worldlings and
      these were the right words at the right time for further insight.
      -------------------------

      In the article that Han is quoting, we have read that: "The
      Buddha greeted him and talked to him on various
      aspects of his teaching. Anaathapindika was
      immediately converted and became a Sotaapanna.>

      Therefore, we know that, even in the early days immediately following
      the Buddha's enlightenment, certain Dhamma talks were given to
      worldling laymen. But did ariyan laymen receive the same talks that
      ariyan monks received? In the sutta, Sariputta says, "This sort of
      talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in
      white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth."
      And Anaathapindika replies, "In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please
      let this sort of talk on the Dhamma be given to lay people clad in
      white."

      I notice that the talk in question was not about overcoming wrong
      view; it was about overcoming clinging. That's why I thought it was
      one specifically tailored to the needs of an *ariyan* learner. (And
      yes, I do know that *everyone* needs to know about *all* aspects of
      Dhamma before they can experience any level of enlightenment!) :-)

      --------------------------------
      S: > Interesting. I'll look forward to reading any further comments
      you have on this.
      --------------------------------

      Thanks, and I'll look forward to yours. Meanwhile, however, you have
      some serious wave riding to do, so leave it till after your `surfari.'

      Ken H
    • Charles DaCosta
      Hi all, Maybe We should not consider the titles as representing something high-mighty. I would like to think that all Buddhists practicing morality have
      Message 106 of 106 , May 10, 2007
        Hi all,



        Maybe We should not consider the titles as representing something
        high-mighty. I would like to think that all Buddhists practicing morality
        have entered the steam of Dharma.



        Charles DaCosta

        _____

        From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of buddhatrue
        <....>

        This wasn't their original function, but unfortunately this is what
        they have become. In some ways I prefer Zen Buddhism which
        completely does away with these categories and simply has those who
        are enlightened and those who are not.

        Metta,
        James
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