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Re: [dsg] Renewed Understanding of MN 148 Chachakka Sutta

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  • sarah abbott
    Hi Swee Boon & all, We were discussing the ayatanas here... I remember Jon replied, but I d ... .... S: I would like to stress that the ayatanas are referring
    Message 1 of 45 , Nov 1, 2006
      Hi Swee Boon & all,

      We were discussing the ayatanas here... I remember Jon replied, but I'd
      like to also add a few comments as you kindly addressed us both:

      --- nidive <nidive@...> wrote:

      Jon quoted from B.Bodhi's note in CMA:

      > > << << <<
      > > The twelve sense bases offer another perspective on the whole. From
      > > this perspective the totality of concrete entities is viewed by way
      > > of the doors and objects of consciousness.
      ....
      S: I would like to stress that the ayatanas are referring to the 'meeting'
      of various dhammas. From the commentary itself: "Places of dwelling,
      distribution, meeting, and production are also commonly called 'spheres'.
      Therefore, they are also spheres, since they are the dwelling places of
      eye-consciousness and the rest, with their various doors and objects;
      since they are the place of distribution for those things that occur by
      their being distributed; since they are the place for the meeting of those
      things meeting by way of door and object; and since they are the place for
      the production of those things arising there. Now these are twelve: the
      six internal spheres, which are the doors, and the six external spheres,
      which are their objects...."
      ....
      >>Bases (1)-(5) are
      > > identical with the five kinds of sensitive material phenomena and
      > > bases (7)-(11) with the five kinds of objective material phenomena.
      > > The mind base at (6), however, has a wider range than the mind door.
      > > It is identified with the aggregate of consciousness in its
      > > totality, comprising all eighty-nine types of citta. The mental-
      > > object base does not completely coincide with mental object
      > > (dhammarammana), but includes only those entities not found among
      > > the other bases. Thus it excludes the first five objective bases,
      > > the five types of sensitive matter, and citta, which is identical
      > > with the mind base. It also excludes concepts (pannatti), since
      > > the notion of base (ayatana) extends only to ultimate realities,
      > > i.e. things existing by way of intrinsic nature (sabhava), and
      > > does not extend to things that owe their existence to conceptual
      > > construction. The mental-object base comprises the fifty-two mental
      > > factors, the sixteen kinds of subtle matter, and Nibbana.
      > > >> >> >>
      ....
      SB:> After reading this passage, the idea struck me that the internal
      > intellect medium is not to be understood as cittas or cetasikas, but
      > rather as just old kamma.
      ....
      S: The internal ayatanas are to be understood as referring to all kinds of
      consciousness and the sense bases such as eye-base and ear-base. Now, some
      kinds of consciousness, such as seeing and hearing, do refer to vipaka
      cittas or 'old kamma' as Jon discussed. Also, the sense-bases are also
      produced by 'old kamma' as you indicate.
      ....
      SB:> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.than.html
      >
      > "Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma,
      > fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The
      > tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma,
      > fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > And it is from these six old kamma that makes possible the arising of
      > new kamma. How so?
      >
      > Example:
      >
      > Internal Intellect + External Idea -> Consciousness
      ....
      S: For a moment of seeing consciousness to arise, there has to be the
      'meeting' of:
      a) internal ayatana of eye-base, external ayatana of visible object,
      internal ayatana of seeing consciousness (manayatana) and external ayatana
      of mental factors (dhammayatana) at the same moment.
      ...
      >
      > Internal Intellect && External Idea && Consciousness == Contact
      >
      > Contact -> Feeling
      >
      > Feeling -> Craving that makes for further becoming (ie. new kamma)
      >
      > The last part of { feeling -> craving } is expanded upon in The Ball
      > of Honey sutta.
      ...
      S: Yes, all true. I think you are discussing two different topics of
      a)ayatanas and b)old and new kamma, so it's a little complicated. You gave
      some good sutta quotes for b).
      ...
      >
      SB:> Oh, by the way, I still maintain that the external dhamma-ayatana
      > consists of ideas.
      ....
      S: I think we have to disagree here. See 'ayatanas' or 'Sabba sutta' in
      U.P.
      The external dhamma-ayatana only includes cetasikas, subtle rupas (and
      nibbana in context). Ayatana does not mean the same as arammana. Ideas can
      be objects of thinking, but ayatanas refers to the 'coming together' or
      'meeting' of paramattha dhammas. I think there is a lot of
      misunderstanding in this area.
      ....
      J:> > The mental-object base comprises the fifty-two mental factors,
      > > the sixteen kinds of subtle matter, and Nibbana.
      >
      > The external dhamma-ayatana cannot comprise the fifty-two cetasikas
      > since these are factors (contact, feeling, perception, thinking) that
      > appear after the meeting of the intellect (old kamma), idea and
      > intellect consciousness.
      ....
      S: The cetasikas arise with the consciousness. There cannot be the arising
      of any citta without the 'meeting' or association with various cetasikas.
      ....
      >
      > As for the sixteen kinds of subtle matter, the Buddha never spoke
      > about them in the suttas as far as I know.
      ....
      S: He may not have referred to them as 'subtle matter', but they are
      referred to. For example, I'm sure you can find references to masculinity,
      femininity, life-force, space, nutritive essence and others.
      ....
      > And lastly, it can't include nibbana since nibbana is not said to
      > arise and fall away (I think Bhikkhu Bodhi (is he the one who wrote
      > CMA?) is way off here from the Buddha, sad to say).
      ....
      S: Nibbana is not always included in dhamma-ayatana. It depends on the
      context.

      Apologies for this delay and any overlap with Jon's response.

      Metta,

      Sarah
      ======
    • sarah abbott
      Hi Swee Boon & all, We were discussing the ayatanas here... I remember Jon replied, but I d ... .... S: I would like to stress that the ayatanas are referring
      Message 45 of 45 , Nov 1, 2006
        Hi Swee Boon & all,

        We were discussing the ayatanas here... I remember Jon replied, but I'd
        like to also add a few comments as you kindly addressed us both:

        --- nidive <nidive@...> wrote:

        Jon quoted from B.Bodhi's note in CMA:

        > > << << <<
        > > The twelve sense bases offer another perspective on the whole. From
        > > this perspective the totality of concrete entities is viewed by way
        > > of the doors and objects of consciousness.
        ....
        S: I would like to stress that the ayatanas are referring to the 'meeting'
        of various dhammas. From the commentary itself: "Places of dwelling,
        distribution, meeting, and production are also commonly called 'spheres'.
        Therefore, they are also spheres, since they are the dwelling places of
        eye-consciousness and the rest, with their various doors and objects;
        since they are the place of distribution for those things that occur by
        their being distributed; since they are the place for the meeting of those
        things meeting by way of door and object; and since they are the place for
        the production of those things arising there. Now these are twelve: the
        six internal spheres, which are the doors, and the six external spheres,
        which are their objects...."
        ....
        >>Bases (1)-(5) are
        > > identical with the five kinds of sensitive material phenomena and
        > > bases (7)-(11) with the five kinds of objective material phenomena.
        > > The mind base at (6), however, has a wider range than the mind door.
        > > It is identified with the aggregate of consciousness in its
        > > totality, comprising all eighty-nine types of citta. The mental-
        > > object base does not completely coincide with mental object
        > > (dhammarammana), but includes only those entities not found among
        > > the other bases. Thus it excludes the first five objective bases,
        > > the five types of sensitive matter, and citta, which is identical
        > > with the mind base. It also excludes concepts (pannatti), since
        > > the notion of base (ayatana) extends only to ultimate realities,
        > > i.e. things existing by way of intrinsic nature (sabhava), and
        > > does not extend to things that owe their existence to conceptual
        > > construction. The mental-object base comprises the fifty-two mental
        > > factors, the sixteen kinds of subtle matter, and Nibbana.
        > > >> >> >>
        ....
        SB:> After reading this passage, the idea struck me that the internal
        > intellect medium is not to be understood as cittas or cetasikas, but
        > rather as just old kamma.
        ....
        S: The internal ayatanas are to be understood as referring to all kinds of
        consciousness and the sense bases such as eye-base and ear-base. Now, some
        kinds of consciousness, such as seeing and hearing, do refer to vipaka
        cittas or 'old kamma' as Jon discussed. Also, the sense-bases are also
        produced by 'old kamma' as you indicate.
        ....
        SB:> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.than.html
        >
        > "Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma,
        > fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The
        > tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma,
        > fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.
        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        > And it is from these six old kamma that makes possible the arising of
        > new kamma. How so?
        >
        > Example:
        >
        > Internal Intellect + External Idea -> Consciousness
        ....
        S: For a moment of seeing consciousness to arise, there has to be the
        'meeting' of:
        a) internal ayatana of eye-base, external ayatana of visible object,
        internal ayatana of seeing consciousness (manayatana) and external ayatana
        of mental factors (dhammayatana) at the same moment.
        ...
        >
        > Internal Intellect && External Idea && Consciousness == Contact
        >
        > Contact -> Feeling
        >
        > Feeling -> Craving that makes for further becoming (ie. new kamma)
        >
        > The last part of { feeling -> craving } is expanded upon in The Ball
        > of Honey sutta.
        ...
        S: Yes, all true. I think you are discussing two different topics of
        a)ayatanas and b)old and new kamma, so it's a little complicated. You gave
        some good sutta quotes for b).
        ...
        >
        SB:> Oh, by the way, I still maintain that the external dhamma-ayatana
        > consists of ideas.
        ....
        S: I think we have to disagree here. See 'ayatanas' or 'Sabba sutta' in
        U.P.
        The external dhamma-ayatana only includes cetasikas, subtle rupas (and
        nibbana in context). Ayatana does not mean the same as arammana. Ideas can
        be objects of thinking, but ayatanas refers to the 'coming together' or
        'meeting' of paramattha dhammas. I think there is a lot of
        misunderstanding in this area.
        ....
        J:> > The mental-object base comprises the fifty-two mental factors,
        > > the sixteen kinds of subtle matter, and Nibbana.
        >
        > The external dhamma-ayatana cannot comprise the fifty-two cetasikas
        > since these are factors (contact, feeling, perception, thinking) that
        > appear after the meeting of the intellect (old kamma), idea and
        > intellect consciousness.
        ....
        S: The cetasikas arise with the consciousness. There cannot be the arising
        of any citta without the 'meeting' or association with various cetasikas.
        ....
        >
        > As for the sixteen kinds of subtle matter, the Buddha never spoke
        > about them in the suttas as far as I know.
        ....
        S: He may not have referred to them as 'subtle matter', but they are
        referred to. For example, I'm sure you can find references to masculinity,
        femininity, life-force, space, nutritive essence and others.
        ....
        > And lastly, it can't include nibbana since nibbana is not said to
        > arise and fall away (I think Bhikkhu Bodhi (is he the one who wrote
        > CMA?) is way off here from the Buddha, sad to say).
        ....
        S: Nibbana is not always included in dhamma-ayatana. It depends on the
        context.

        Apologies for this delay and any overlap with Jon's response.

        Metta,

        Sarah
        ======
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