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Re: Antaraaparinibbaayati: "attainer of Nibbaana in the interval"

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  • abhidhammika
    Dear Scott D, Sarah, Nina, Michael Kalyaano, Mike N, Robert K and all How are you? Scott quoted Bhikkhu Bodhi as writing: ...If we understand the term
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 30, 2006
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      Dear Scott D, Sarah, Nina, Michael Kalyaano, Mike N, Robert K and all

      How are you?

      Scott quoted Bhikkhu Bodhi as writing:

      "...If we understand the term antaraaparinibbaayi literally, as it
      seems we should, it then means one who attains Nibbaana in the
      interval between two lives, perhaps while existing in a subtle body
      in the intermediate state...Though the Theravaadin proponents argue
      against this interpretation of antaraaparinibbaayi...,the evidence
      from the suttas leans strongly in its favour..." (Note 65,
      Bojjha.ngasa.myutta, Sa.myutta Nikaaya, pp. 1902-1903.)"

      The above statement of Bhikkhu Bodhi was unfortunately wrong because
      it failed to do justice to the Buddha's own definition of the term
      "antaraaparinibbaayi".

      The Buddha uses the term "antaraaparinibbaayi" as a technical term
      reserved for an Anaagaamii, a Non-returner. So this term does not
      permit us from interpreting outside the original Theravada meaning
      described and defined by the Buddha in the Pali Suttam Texts.

      Before I quote the Buddha's description of this technical term, I
      would like to make a brief comment on the Pali word "antara" whose
      meaning is merely 'between'. As its English equivalent can be used
      for any two things or two events or two qualities or two times or
      any two states, the word 'antara' can also be used. This means that
      the prefix 'antara' does not mean 'between two lives' as Bhikkhu
      Bodhi claimed to understand the term literally.

      Scott also wrote in reply to Sarah:

      "It seems more common for him to note when he thinks the commentaries
      have missed the boat; he does, however, seem to make full use of the
      commentaries. This is why I favour his translations of suttas over
      others."

      Scott, from your above statement, do you have Bhikkhu Bodhi's
      translation of Samyuttanikaaya? I think Sarah has it.

      If Scott or Sarah has that translation, can you post a relevant
      passage of it here in reply to this post as I am going to provide
      the Pali quote from Samyuttanikkaya where the Buddha describes and
      defines the term 'antaraaparinibbaayi'. To make your copy chore
      easier, I will chose the passage from a very short Suttam only. :-)

      Here comes the Suttam quote.

      -----------------------------

      6. Dutiyaphalasuttam

      536. ".. .Katame satta phalaa sattaanisamsaa? Di.t.theva
      dhamme pa.tikacca aññam aaraadheti, no ce di.t.theva dhamme
      pa.tikacca aññam aaraadheti, atha mara.nakaale aññam aaraadheti.
      No ce di.t.theva dhamme aññam aaraadheti, no ce mara.nakaale
      aññam aaraadheti, atha pañcannam orambhaagiyaanam samyojanaanam
      parikkhayaa antaraaparinibbaayii hoti,..."

      --------------------------------

      The above Suttam can be found as Section 536, the Sixth Suttam under
      7. Bodhipakkhiyavaggo, 4. Indriyasamyuttam, Mahavaggo,
      Samyuttanikaayo.

      With best wishes,

      Suan Lu Zaw

      www.bodhiology.org




      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan"
      <scduncan@...> wrote:



      Dear All,

      Bhikkhu Bodhi writes:

      "...If we understand the term antaraaparinibbaayi literally, as it
      seems we should, it then means one who attains Nibbaana in the
      interval between two lives, perhaps while existing in a subtle body
      in the intermediate state...Though the Theravaadin proponents argue
      against this interpretation of antaraaparinibbaayi...,the evidence
      from the suttas leans strongly in its favour..." (Note 65,
      Bojjha.ngasa.myutta, Sa.myutta Nikaaya, pp. 1902-1903.)

      This relates to the discussion of the cuti citta. I'll add the sutta
      references Bh. Bodhi refers to tomorrow. I wonder how anantara and
      samanantara conditions relate to this. Any comments?

      With loving kindness,

      Scott.

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan"
      <scduncan@...> wrote:


      I'll add the sutta references Bh. Bodhi refers to:

      "This interpretation, adopted by several non-Theravaada schools of
      early Buddhism, seems to be confirmed by the Purisagati Sutta (AN IV
      70-74), in which the simile of the flaming chiip suggests that seven
      types (including the three kinds of antaaraparinibbayaati) are
      mutually exclusive and have been graded according to the sharpness of
      their faculties. Additional support comes from AN II 134, 25-29,
      which explains antaaraparinibbayaati as one who has abandoned the
      fetter of rebirth (upapattisa.myojana) without yet having abandoned
      existence (bhavasa.myojana)."
      Sa.mmyutta Nikaaya, Bojjha.ngasa.myutta Note 65, p. 1903.

      Scott.


      Sarah: "I think that B.Bodhi's comments to suggest that this is the
      correct 'literal' interpretation and that the 'evidence from the
      suttas leans strongly in its favour' miss the target here."

      Scott: It seems more common for him to note when he thinks the
      commentaries have missed the boat; he does, however, seem to make
      full use of the commentaries. This is why I favour his translations
      of suttas over others. It was the strong opinion offered by Bh.
      Bodhi that caught my attention. He doesn't often seem to opine as
      strenuously on such central points and yet here I found such an
      opinion to be interesting.
    • Scott Duncan
      Dear Suan, I think I found what you were asking for: 6. Dutiyaphalasuttam 536. .. .Katame satta phalaa sattaanisamsaa? Di.t.theva dhamme pa.tikacca
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 30, 2006
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        Dear Suan,

        I think I found what you were asking for:

        6. Dutiyaphalasuttam

        536. ".. .Katame satta phalaa sattaanisamsaa? Di.t.theva
        dhamme pa.tikacca a��am aaraadheti, no ce di.t.theva dhamme
        pa.tikacca a��am aaraadheti, atha mara.nakaale a��am aaraadheti.
        No ce di.t.theva dhamme a��am aaraadheti, no ce mara.nakaale
        a��am aaraadheti, atha pa�cannam orambhaagiyaanam samyojanaanam
        parikkhayaa antaraaparinibbaayii hoti,..."

        "...What are the seven fruits and benefits?

        One attains final knowledge early in this very life. If one does not
        attain final knowledge early in this very life, then one attains final
        knowledge at the time of death. If one does not attain final
        knowledge early in this very life, or at the time of death, then with
        the utter destruction of the five lower fetters one becomes an
        attainer of Nibbaana within the interval..."

        With loving kindness,

        Scott.
      • abhidhammika
        Dear Scott Thank you for posting Bhikkhu Bodhi s translation, which is passable, but could have been more accurate. I have been reading relevant Pali Suttams
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 31, 2006
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          Dear Scott

          Thank you for posting Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, which is
          passable, but could have been more accurate.

          I have been reading relevant Pali Suttams where the Buddha
          describes 'antaraaparinibbaayaaii'.

          I will write my findings when I have more spare time. What I can say
          now is that antaraaparinibbaayaaiis are the most advanced ones among
          the Anaagaamiis, the Non-returners.

          Also, the Pali Suttams are against Bhikkhu Bodhi's so-called literal
          interpretation and underestanding.

          By the way, have you ever watched Chinese Ghost Stories movies?
          Those ghosts are what Mahayanists and Taoists believe to be the
          between-beings (antarabhava) between this life and the next life.

          With regards,

          Suan

          www.bodhiology.org





          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan"
          <scduncan@...> wrote:

          Dear Suan,

          I think I found what you were asking for:

          6. Dutiyaphalasuttam

          536. ".. .Katame satta phalaa sattaanisamsaa? Di.t.theva
          dhamme pa.tikacca a��am aaraadheti, no ce di.t.theva dhamme
          pa.tikacca a��am aaraadheti, atha mara.nakaale a��am
          aaraadheti.
          No ce di.t.theva dhamme a��am aaraadheti, no ce mara.nakaale
          a��am aaraadheti, atha pa�cannam orambhaagiyaanam samyojanaanam
          parikkhayaa antaraaparinibbaayii hoti,..."

          "...What are the seven fruits and benefits?

          One attains final knowledge early in this very life. If one does not
          attain final knowledge early in this very life, then one attains
          final
          knowledge at the time of death. If one does not attain final
          knowledge early in this very life, or at the time of death, then with
          the utter destruction of the five lower fetters one becomes an
          attainer of Nibbaana within the interval..."

          With loving kindness,

          Scott.
        • Scott Duncan
          Dear Suan, S: Thank you for posting Bhikkhu Bodhi s translation, which is passable, but could have been more accurate. I know you are busy but I would be
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 31, 2006
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            Dear Suan,

            S: "Thank you for posting Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, which is
            passable, but could have been more accurate."

            I know you are busy but I would be interested, for the instruction in
            Pali, to know where this might have been more accurately rendered.

            S: "By the way, have you ever watched Chinese Ghost Stories movies?
            Those ghosts are what Mahayanists and Taoists believe to be the
            between-beings (antarabhava) between this life and the next life."

            No, I've not watched these movies. I have had experience with death
            and was tempted to interpret certain grief-related affective
            experiences and accompanying fantasies as being evidence for the
            presence of the departed one in the hours closely following her death.
            I think that the belief in between-beings and an in-between likely
            reflects clinging to self-view and results from the proliferation of
            thought following the experience of dosa.

            With loving kindness,

            Scott.
          • abhidhammika
            Dear Scott, Michael Kalyaano, Nina, Sarah, Mike N, Robert K, Jon How are you? Scott wrote: I would be interested, for the instruction in Pali, to know where
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 1, 2006
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              Dear Scott, Michael Kalyaano, Nina, Sarah, Mike N, Robert K, Jon

              How are you?

              Scott wrote:

              "I would be interested, for the instruction in Pali, to know where
              this might have been more accurately rendered."

              The Buddha was teaching the psychology of awakening and how it can
              happen in stages in these groups of Suttams. In so doing, he uses
              relevant technical terms. It is the responsiblity of translators to
              do justice to these technical terms when they translate these
              Suttams.

              In the Dutiyaphala Suttam, the Buddha uses the Pali word "aññam
              (from aññaaa)" as a technical term.

              The term "aññaa" has two meanings, one being "knowing or knowledge",
              the other being "the state of Arahatta".

              Bhikkhu Bodhi has translated the Pali line "Di.t.theva dhamme
              pa.tikacca aññam aaraadheti," as "One attains final knowledge early
              in this very life."

              As you see, he was translating the term "aññaa" as 'final knowledge'.

              Scott, please remember that your original post in this thread was
              about Bhikkhu Bodhi's insistence on literal translation of Pali
              terms, the example being the term "Antaraaparinibbaayii".

              So, if we were to translate the term "aññaa" literally, we have two
              choices.

              1. One attains knowledge early in this very life.
              2. One attains the state of Arahatta early in this very life.

              As you see, the Choice One is too vague because the term "knowledge
              or knowing" is too general and is not a technical term.

              So, we are left with the Choice Two which is the required
              translation because the term "aññaa" was properly and literally
              translated as "the state of Arahatta" and as a technical term as the
              Buddha intended in the context of the Psychology of Awakening in
              their Stages.

              Now, the question is why did Bhikkhu Bodhi abandon his insistence on
              literal translation in translating the term "aññaa"? And, why did he
              fail to do justice to this important technical term?

              Scott, you are a Doctor, a psychiatrist. I will let you figure out
              what might have been transpiring in the mind of Bhikkhu Bodhi when
              he was translating those technical terms in those Suttams. Of
              course, if you needed my help in this analysis, let me know. :-)

              Scott also wrote:

              "No, I've not watched these movies. I have had experience with death
              and was tempted to interpret certain grief-related affective
              experiences and accompanying fantasies as being evidence for the
              presence of the departed one in the hours closely following her
              death. I think that the belief in between-beings and an in-between
              likely reflects clinging to self-view and results from the
              proliferation of thought following the experience of dosa."

              Thank you for your kind description of your personal experience with
              death.

              With regards,

              Suan

              www.bodhiology.org





              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan"
              <scduncan@...> wrote:

              Dear Suan,

              S: "Thank you for posting Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, which is
              passable, but could have been more accurate."

              I know you are busy but I would be interested, for the instruction in
              Pali, to know where this might have been more accurately rendered.

              S: "By the way, have you ever watched Chinese Ghost Stories movies?
              Those ghosts are what Mahayanists and Taoists believe to be the
              between-beings (antarabhava) between this life and the next life."

              No, I've not watched these movies. I have had experience with death
              and was tempted to interpret certain grief-related affective
              experiences and accompanying fantasies as being evidence for the
              presence of the departed one in the hours closely following her
              death. I think that the belief in between-beings and an in-between
              likely reflects clinging to self-view and results from the
              proliferation of thought following the experience of dosa.

              With loving kindness,

              Scott.
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