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Re: [dsg] Re: Ditthi (Jon)

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  • Jonothan Abbott
    Hi Phil A quick comment and clarification on my part. ... You are right, wrong view is a specific cetasika. But it only ever arises with cittas rooted in
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 30, 2006
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      Hi Phil

      A quick comment and clarification on my part.

      Phil wrote:

      > Hi Jon
      >
      >
      >
      >>Yes, all forms of lobha (of which wrong view is one)
      >>
      >>
      >
      > Ph: Oh - this is new to me. Wrong view as a form of lobha. I guess
      >I thought lobha was one cetasika and wrong view another one.
      >Distinct - associated, but distinct.
      >
      >

      You are right, wrong view is a specific cetasika. But it only ever
      arises with cittas rooted in lobha. Sorry for any confusion.

      Jon
    • Phil
      Hi Jon (and all) ... Right, I d forgotten about that - this is an interesting point. Cittas rooted in dosa are never accompanied by wrong view. Interesting,
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 1, 2006
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        Hi Jon (and all)

        > > Ph: Oh - this is new to me. Wrong view as a form of lobha. I guess
        > >I thought lobha was one cetasika and wrong view another one.
        > >Distinct - associated, but distinct.
        > >
        > >
        >
        > You are right, wrong view is a specific cetasika. But it only ever
        > arises with cittas rooted in lobha.

        Right, I'd forgotten about that - this is an interesting point.
        Cittas rooted in dosa are never accompanied by wrong view. Interesting,
        one would think "hate" would be accompanied by wrong view. This might
        be another thing that helps us to understand how lobha leads to dosa.
        Attachment with wrong view to dhammas conditioning dosa when the
        attachment is frustrated, but the wrong view is all in the lobha.

        What about killing? Surely the citta that propels an act of killing
        is rooted in dosa, but there is no ditthi accompanying it? I guess the
        ditthi is there, rooted in lobha, but at a different split second
        moment apart. Dosa > lobha rooted citta accompanied by wrong view that
        says its ok to kill> dosa> dosa > SPLAT!!! Not a thought out process,
        just a flash of an impulse that communicates "ok to kill" in a non-
        verbal view? (The splat is a mosquito, folks. Not a motorcyle driver.
        But the dynamic, if correct - I doubt it - wouldn't be any different.
        Or would it? Maybe the "view" element would be more pronounced since
        killing a human would demand more justification from wrong view.

        Just thinking out loud.


        phil
      • Jonothan Abbott
        Hi Phil ... I d be surprised if this is actually said. Of course, failure to understand dhammas could go hand in hand with (be symptomatic of) wrong view. ...
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
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          Hi Phil

          Phil wrote:

          >>However, wrong view is particularly pernicious because by
          >>definition it involves the idea that it is right
          >>(otherwise it wouldn't be a *view*).
          >>
          >
          > Well, still not clear on this because when I'm listening sometimes
          >it seems wrong view is not a *view* per se but just a failure to
          >understand dhammas.
          >

          I'd be surprised if this is actually said. Of course, failure to
          understand dhammas could go hand in hand with (be symptomatic of) wrong
          view.

          >But I guess it is a *view* if we see people,
          >think there are people, for example? Obviously this is what we are
          >doing 99.99% of the time, or whatever, so do we have wrong view
          >99.99% of the time or whatever? I think you will answer below.
          >
          >
          >
          >>Wrong view is the held belief that things are other than they
          >>truly are. So the (mere) failure to see things as they
          >>truly are is not wrong view.
          >>
          >
          > Ph: Ok, above question answered. But still left with a sense that
          >I sometimes hear otherwise. That's not a problem. I'll keep
          >listening. Having everything fall together and make perfect sense
          >would be a sign of wanting to have everything fall together and make
          >perfect sense - and having it that way by the wanting. I appreciate
          >a certain confusion.
          >

          ;-)), ;-))

          >>Of the sanna vipallassas, only those that perceive the impermanent
          >>as permanent and the not-self as self are eradicated at
          >>stream-entry (along with wrong view).
          >>
          >>Those that perceive the perceive the impure as pure and the painful
          >>as pleasant remain and are not eradicated until later stages.
          >>
          >
          > Ph: Cool! Thanks. Could you tell me the pali names of the
          >vipallassas again.
          >

          From Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary
          (http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vipallaasa.htm):

          * vipallāsa
          'perversions' or 'distortions'. -
          ''There are 4 perversions which may be either:
          * of perception (saññā-vipallāsa),
          * of consciousness (citta v.)
          *or of views (ditthi-v.).

          And which are these four? To regard:
          *what is impermanent (anicca) as permanent;
          * what is painful (dukkha) as pleasant (or happiness-yielding);
          *what is without a self (anattā) as a self;
          *what is impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful''

          >Also, what is the opposite of vipallassas, when
          >theing are perceived "correctly" if you will. "vi-" is a prefix
          >meaning "not", right. So is is "pallassa?" Nah, just panna I guess.
          >

          I don't know of any 'opposite' Panna sounds good.

          > Thanks. Talk to you again next week. This is a subject that just
          >needs to soak in gradually and will for years. Can't be crammed or
          >understood by trying harder to understand it - in my lazy opinion,
          >maybe.
          >

          Just as and when is fine with me.

          Jon
        • Phil
          Hi no one in particular This would be no news to anyone here, but thinking about killing can now see that it would be more likely to be rooted in lobha, with
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
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            Hi no one in particular

            This would be no news to anyone here, but thinking about killing can
            now see that it would be more likely to be rooted in lobha, with wrong
            view, and not dosa. The dosa (never accompanied by wrong view) would
            condition the killing, but the actual act would be done with cittas
            rooted in lobha (usually with wrong view that says, ever so briefly,
            there's no danger in killing). For example, the mosquito causes dosa
            because we have so much lobha for whatever kind of comfort the mosquito
            intereferes with, but at the moment of killing it there is
            lobha/satsifaction as the little bugger is located and killed,
            returning us to our comfort zone. (Or so we think....)

            Obviously, I'm not intending to celebrate killing, just reflecting on
            the dhammas that are involved in the act.

            Phil

            > Ph: What about killing? Surely the citta that propels an act of
            killing
            > is rooted in dosa, but there is no ditthi accompanying it? I guess
            the
            > ditthi is there, rooted in lobha, but at a different split second
            > moment apart. Dosa > lobha rooted citta accompanied by wrong view
            that
            > says its ok to kill> dosa> dosa > SPLAT!!! Not a thought out process,
            > just a flash of an impulse that communicates "ok to kill" in a non-
            > verbal view? (The splat is a mosquito, folks.
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Hi Phil, no. The act of killing is done with citta rooted in dosa: citta does not want the object. But there are many other akusala cittas alternating, such as
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
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              Hi Phil,
              no. The act of killing is done with citta rooted in dosa: citta does
              not want the object. But there are many other akusala cittas
              alternating, such as thinking of your comfort, or wrong view.
              Nina.
              Op 3-okt-2006, om 3:26 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven:

              > For example, the mosquito causes dosa
              > because we have so much lobha for whatever kind of comfort the
              > mosquito
              > intereferes with, but at the moment of killing it there is
              > lobha/satsifaction as the little bugger is located and killed,
              > returning us to our comfort zone. (Or so we think....)



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Phil
              Hi Nina Welcome back! Looking forward to hearing about your trip and discussions you had. Hmmm, I guess you haven t been killing many mosquitoes recently. It
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
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                Hi Nina

                Welcome back! Looking forward to hearing about your trip and
                discussions you had.

                Hmmm, I guess you haven't been killing many mosquitoes recently.
                It sure feels like a very good-feeling citta (ie not dosa) is at
                work at the very moment. (When it's in the middle of the night and
                you're being kept from sleeping, work the next day etc.)

                In any case, this is a good reminder - what our experience tells
                us is happening is not always what is happening. It is best to study
                Abhidhamma and understand intellectually what happens. Any seeming
                discrepancy between what the Abhidhamma teaches and what our
                experience tells us is going on is due to our accumulated ignorance.
                So I will take your word on this as an Abhidhamma expert that the
                act of killing is always done with citta rooted in dosa.

                Phil


                > Hi Phil,
                > no. The act of killing is done with citta rooted in dosa: citta
                does
                > not want the object. But there are many other akusala cittas
                > alternating, such as thinking of your comfort, or wrong view.
                > Nina.
                > Op 3-okt-2006, om 3:26 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven:
                >
                > > For example, the mosquito causes dosa
                > > because we have so much lobha for whatever kind of comfort the
                > > mosquito
                > > intereferes with, but at the moment of killing it there is
                > > lobha/satsifaction as the little bugger is located and killed,
                > > returning us to our comfort zone. (Or so we think....)
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Hi Phil, It is not always easy to know the different cittas since they succeed one another extremely fast. But when killing, citta finds the object
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 3, 2006
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                  Hi Phil,
                  It is not always easy to know the different cittas since they succeed
                  one another extremely fast. But when killing, citta finds the object
                  undesirable.
                  You can use other means to keep mosquitos away: ethereal oils such as
                  lavender, or citronella helps. Or deet. We use deet when hiking near
                  marshes.
                  You could try these ways, let me know whether it helps.
                  Nina.
                  Op 3-okt-2006, om 7:01 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven:

                  > Any seeming
                  > discrepancy between what the Abhidhamma teaches and what our
                  > experience tells us is going on is due to our accumulated ignorance.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Phil
                  Hi Nina ... as ... Thanks. This summer was much better. Last year, even with a screen, they somehow got in. This summer we used lemongrass, which is incredibly
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 3, 2006
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                    Hi Nina



                    > You can use other means to keep mosquitos away: ethereal oils such
                    as
                    > lavender, or citronella helps. Or deet. We use deet when hiking near
                    > marshes.

                    Thanks. This summer was much better. Last year, even with a screen,
                    they somehow got in. This summer we used lemongrass, which is
                    incredibly effective. If anyone has a problem, use an aromatherapy
                    diffuser with lemongrass and it's almost 100% effective.

                    But in the middle of the night, if there *is* a mosquito, all
                    thoughts of Dhamma go out the door. Kusala hasn't developed to that
                    degree yet, no way. That's ok. Not good, but there is nothing to be
                    done about it by making resolutions. Kusala will develop to that
                    degree, or it won't.

                    I don't kill flies or cockroaches, though. The other day I was
                    teaching some children and there was a fly. I swatted it with a cushion
                    to stun it, then cupped it in my hands as it buzzed and let it out the
                    front door of the school. Of course, I was conceited and thought the
                    kids would think it was a cool thing to do but they just thought I was
                    nuts.

                    Mosquitos are another matter, especially when one is pestering
                    Naomi. "Shikata ga nai" as we say in Japanese, killing them can't be
                    avoided at times, not by me. There is kusala dhamma that prevents me
                    from killing flies and cockroaches, there are conditions for that
                    abstention, but there is not conditionned kusala dhamma that prevents
                    me from killing mosquitoes. That's all there is to it, for now. Of
                    course, this post will add in some very small way to the factors
                    conditioning kusala.

                    Of course I know there is a price to pay for killing mosquitos, but I
                    am not a Buddhist saint (sotapanna etc.) and will not try to imitate
                    one in the belief that by doing so I will become one. The eradication
                    of akusala and cultivation of kusala cannot work that way, it will just
                    result in more attachment. The Buddha's way is to have less attachment,
                    not more attachment.

                    No need for further reply Nina, thanks. You must have so many posts
                    to write!

                    Phil
                  • upasaka@aol.com
                    Hi, Nina (and Phil) - In a message dated 10/3/06 12:11:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... =================== First of all, Nina, inasmuch as you are posting
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 3, 2006
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                      Hi, Nina (and Phil) -

                      In a message dated 10/3/06 12:11:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                      vangorko@... writes:

                      > Hi Phil,
                      > no. The act of killing is done with citta rooted in dosa: citta does
                      > not want the object. But there are many other akusala cittas
                      > alternating, such as thinking of your comfort, or wrong view.
                      > Nina.
                      >
                      ===================
                      First of all, Nina, inasmuch as you are posting now, I presume you
                      have returned home. I hope the remainder of your trip was wonderful and that your
                      flight back pleasant! It was a true delight to visit with you and Lodewijk,
                      to whom I also send my warmest greetings! I will remember our get together very
                      fondly. It made a cherished impression on me. :-)
                      As for your reply to Phil, from my own introspection I agree entirely,
                      at least as regards typical scenarios. When one is engaged over a(n even
                      brief) period of time in an unwholesome action, there arise and cease a multitude
                      of mindstates almost all of which are akusala, and which vary in exact type
                      and in intensity among themselves. (The few kusala states involved might be
                      occasional moments of regret or "second thought".)
                      As for killing, hatred or fear (or both alternatingly) are most likely
                      to be mainly in effect, and, at the *exact* moment at which the decisive
                      action is taken, I believe it would be hatred that likely dominates. I base this
                      not on study, but on past unfortunate experience with certain harmful little
                      creatures (insects and such). Fortunately, for many years it has become my
                      practice to remove from the house unwanted and uninvited (LOL!) "guests" instead of
                      inflicting harm on them. I have found that even the most "repulsive" of
                      creatures can come to be seen with a degree of actual fondness when dealing with
                      them kindly over a period of time, a fact that has amazed me.
                      But what is going on when engaged in killing is a complex matter, and
                      what I wrote above doesn't always apply. I think of "mercy killings" of those
                      dying a torturous death. I also think of regretful killing in defense of
                      innocents such as police and soldiers may have to engage in. Of course, what states
                      actually arise depends in the specific person involved and the specific
                      circumstances in place. But in situations such as these I think the "typical"
                      analysis given above is likely off the mark at least in part.

                      With metta,
                      Howard

                      /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                      in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                      phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • sarah abbott
                      Hi Phil & all, 2 brief anecdotes I d like to add- ... .... S: 1)I have a sweet, kind, calm-looking Tai chi teacher until a mosquito lands on her. They send her
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 6, 2006
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                        Hi Phil & all,

                        2 brief anecdotes I'd like to add-

                        --- Phil <philco777@...> wrote:
                        > Mosquitos are another matter, especially when one is pestering
                        > Naomi.
                        ....
                        S:
                        1)I have a sweet, kind, calm-looking Tai chi teacher until a mosquito
                        lands on her. They send her into a frenzy, she stops her tai chi movements
                        and it's impossible to avoid noticing the dosa rather than any lobha as
                        she swats at them....

                        I used to have dosa about her actions -- it used to really bother me when
                        students or adults acted in a cruel way to insects. I almost used to think
                        it was good to be bothered about it. Nowadays it bothers me a lot less.
                        Again, everyone has their own way, their own kind of kilesa and kamma.
                        What's the point about getting bothered about the others' and just feeling
                        more uneasy or annoyed?

                        2)We have a good surfer friend who has been extremely kind to us at the
                        beach. He's an expert, but is so tolerant of newbies like ourselves and
                        played a key role in encouraging us to take to the waves. He's also a
                        devoted family man and I'd never known him anything but relaxed, tolerant
                        and easy-going, until....

                        There was a big scene at the beach when we arrived the other day. The
                        police were out in numbers, an ambulance and lots of commotion. Apparently
                        a Chinese lady had been upset by our friend's playful dog and had hit back
                        by abusing his Japanese pregnant wife who was meant to be in charge of the
                        dog, calling her a 'pig'. Our friend was so incensed that his wife was
                        abused that he had got really lost his cool. The Chinese lady had then
                        called the police and complained about being attacked by the dog and we
                        arrived to watch the rest of the circus.

                        Anyway, just examples of how behaviour can change so rapidly when the
                        'weak spot' is found. Just like the story of Kali (in MN 21) who decided
                        to test her gentle, kind mistress, Vedehika by getting up later and later
                        every day until Vedihika snapped and knocked her over the head with a
                        rolling-pin.

                        Just a ramble....

                        I enjoyed yours as usual:-)

                        Metta,

                        Sarah
                        ======
                      • Phil
                        Hi Sarah ... movements ... as ... Yeah, the kids go crazy when there s a fly in the room. But since I m their teacher, I have to get the fly out. It s my
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 6, 2006
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                          Hi Sarah


                          > 1)I have a sweet, kind, calm-looking Tai chi teacher until a mosquito
                          > lands on her. They send her into a frenzy, she stops her tai chi
                          movements
                          > and it's impossible to avoid noticing the dosa rather than any lobha
                          as
                          > she swats at them....


                          Yeah, the kids go crazy when there's a fly in the room. But since I'm
                          their teacher, I have to get the fly out. It's my profesional duty,
                          which I respect.

                          As for mosquitos, it's my kilesa, but I doubt I will hesitate to kill
                          one if it's at me in the middle of the night - not in this lifetime, no
                          way. (but who knows.) I think it would be a bit silly for a busy
                          worldling who has to work the next day to sacrifice sleep and allow
                          hime or herself to be bloodsucked for a Dhamma ideal. And it's a
                          marital duty to look after Naomi's wellbeing. We are who we are and
                          where we are and there is no need to imitate monks. That's my take on
                          it - a good example of wrong view, but so be it. I'll pay the price!
                          I'd better not go on one of the India trips or I'll cause a turmoil. I
                          also have a habit of slapping beggars, you see.

                          Phil

                          p.s it'll be interesting to see if I have a different take on this in
                          a few years!
                        • Jonothan Abbott
                          Hi Phil ... Not sure that wrong view has any particular role to play in fact of lobha being a condition for dosa. Even without wrong view, the frustration of
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 7, 2006
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                            Hi Phil

                            Phil wrote:
                            > Right, I'd forgotten about that - this is an interesting point.
                            > Cittas rooted in dosa are never accompanied by wrong view. Interesting,
                            > one would think "hate" would be accompanied by wrong view. This might
                            > be another thing that helps us to understand how lobha leads to dosa.
                            > Attachment with wrong view to dhammas conditioning dosa when the
                            > attachment is frustrated, but the wrong view is all in the lobha.
                            >

                            Not sure that wrong view has any particular role to play in fact of
                            lobha being a condition for dosa. Even without wrong view, the
                            frustration of attachment leads to dosa.

                            > What about killing? Surely the citta that propels an act of killing
                            > is rooted in dosa, but there is no ditthi accompanying it? I guess the
                            > ditthi is there, rooted in lobha, but at a different split second
                            > moment apart. Dosa > lobha rooted citta accompanied by wrong view that
                            > says its ok to kill> dosa> dosa > SPLAT!!! Not a thought out process,
                            > just a flash of an impulse that communicates "ok to kill" in a non-
                            > verbal view?

                            I think the intention to kill arises because of the aversion and not
                            because of holding the idea that 'OK to kill'. The idea of 'not OK to
                            kill' can happily coexist with wrong view ;-))

                            The kind of situation where wrong view could clearly come into play
                            would be where the view was held that taking life promotes wholesomeness
                            or pleasant results. Examples would be: animal sacrifice as leading to
                            purification of past deeds (or whatever); Angulimala (who was following
                            the advice of his spiritual teacher).

                            > (The splat is a mosquito, folks. Not a motorcyle driver.
                            > But the dynamic, if correct - I doubt it - wouldn't be any different.
                            > Or would it? Maybe the "view" element would be more pronounced since
                            > killing a human would demand more justification from wrong view.
                            >
                            > Just thinking out loud.
                            >

                            An interesting area. But even without the view element, plain old lobha
                            and dosa could account for the unwholesome deeds.

                            Jon
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