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Re: born with pa~n~naa

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  • Scott Duncan
    Dear Nina, Thank you very much for: N: I just repeat as I got it from Kh Sujin. When we are hearing a sound we learn that hearing is naama and sound is ruupa.
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 1, 2006
      Dear Nina,

      Thank you very much for:

      N: "I just repeat as I got it from Kh Sujin. When we are hearing a
      sound we learn that hearing is naama and sound is ruupa. Naama
      experiences an object, ruupa does not experience anything. We
      understand this on an intellectual level, but not yet through
      insight. We confuse hearing and sound, but when there is awareness,
      it can be aware of only one reality, nama or rupa."

      Hearing is naama, sound is ruupa. I find myself repeating this to
      myself. I think this is correct. I was considering this today, while
      contemplating sound and listening and thought the same. And this is
      only on the intellectual level. I seem naturally to focus on sound
      and hearing, for some reason, as I go about my day. I guess this is
      why I like this statement and find it to be correct.

      N: "After a sense object such as sound is experienced in an ear-door
      process, it is also experienced in a following mind-door process.
      Later on, in other mind-door processes we define the sound and think
      about it, then the object is a concept."

      That's right. I notice this. I can't experience pure "sound" yet -
      pa~n~na doesn't arise. I can notice how very very quickly there is
      thinking about sound. Like passing two people who are talking. I
      hear, as if the sound didn't even happen, only snippets of a
      conversation - already a whole and meaningful and everything.
      Certainly not sound.

      N: "Thus, each ruupa that is sense object, experienced in a
      sense-door process, is also experienced in a following mind-door
      process. But just now the mind-door process is as it were hidden, it
      seems that seeing, hearing, all follow upon each other. We do not know
      mind-door processes in between."

      There is so much that is not known.

      N: "Now it may be clearer that so long as we do not know what naama
      is, pure naama as Kh Sujin says, we are bound to be confused as to
      cittas and cetasikas. We can notice lobha and dosa, but do we know
      their true characteristics as naama? Sati and pa~n~naa can begin, but
      we cannot say that there is clear understanding. We do not really know
      the difference between citta and cetasika."

      That's true. I can't tell. Is it theoretically possible for pa~n~na
      to arise to such a degree that one can actually differentiate dhammas
      in this fashion?

      N: "When we speak about the difference between nama and rupa, we
      should not think that this means between seeing and visible object,
      hearing and sound, thus, pairwise, because it depends on the sati what
      types of realities appear when there is the first vipassanaa ~naa.na.
      Some people think that it has to be pairwise. That is not so."

      Sati arises when it does. For me, as I mentioned, sound/hearing seems
      to become a focus. Maybe someday I'll know something about this. But
      not all neat and pair-wise - however it arises.

      N: "When there are conditions for the arising of the first stage of
      vipassanaa ~naa.na, naama and ruupa are experienced one at a time in
      several mind-door processes. Then it is clear what a mind-door
      process is. Naama is clearly known as naama, not blended or mixed
      with ruupa such as is the case right now."

      I'm still prone to take the above literally, that is, that one would
      actually experience this - some sort of metaphor like "time-lapse
      photography" comes always to mind - but I don't really know how this
      is said to actually be experienced.

      N: "It struck me that you said, piiti is more coarse than happy
      feeling, and then I found that the jhaanafactor piti is more coarse,
      when reading the Vis."

      I think I've experienced it. I'm not sure. It feels "bodily" somehow.

      N: "Jhaanafactors have to be developed in order to attain jhaana, but
      as higher stages are attained not all factors are needed, they are
      abandoned. The coarser ones are abandoned stage by stage, because
      jhaana becomes more refined. The translation is confusing, because
      piiti is transl. as happiness and happy feeling as bliss."

      It is confusing to me.

      N: "I am referring to cittajaruupa, mind-produced ruupa, and that
      includes piiti that in particular conditions bodily phenomena. An
      example is given of a girl who wanted to hear Dhamma and could
      levitate the body in her enthusiasm. Also akusala piiti, apart from
      jhaana can condition levitation."

      The levitation would be ruupa? Cittajaruupa in particular? And,
      whether one or the other, of no final consequence, really.

      N: "In Bgk we discussed thinking: it is hard to know what one is
      thinking, because it falls away immediately. Kh Sujin said that when
      one asks what do you think, it is hard to answer this. We cannot know
      precisely."

      I find it easy to say what I'm thinking because I imagine that it is
      coherent, and hangs together, and is meaningful. I have yet to
      experience thinking that falls away immediately. It seems to just
      flow on. Ignorance.

      A pleasure as always, Nina.

      With loving kindness,

      Scott.
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Scott, ... I can t experience pure sound yet - pa~n~na doesn t arise. I can notice how very very quickly there is thinking about sound. Like passing two
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 3, 2006
        Dear Scott,
        ---------------
        I can't experience pure "sound" yet -
        pa~n~na doesn't arise. I can notice how very very quickly there is
        thinking about sound. Like passing two people who are talking. I
        hear, as if the sound didn't even happen, only snippets of a
        conversation - already a whole and meaningful and everything.
        Certainly not sound.
        --------
        N: It does not matter, then thinking is the reality that appears.
        ------------

        N: "Now it may be clearer that so long as we do not know what naama
        is, pure naama as Kh Sujin says, ....Sati and pa~n~naa can begin, but
        we cannot say that there is clear understanding. We do not really know
        the difference between citta and cetasika."
        --------
        S:That's true. I can't tell. Is it theoretically possible for pa~n~na
        to arise to such a degree that one can actually differentiate dhammas
        in this fashion?
        -------
        N: Sure, otherwise there would be no Path as taught by the Buddha.
        Only, we do not know when, but again, this does not matter. We can
        begin again and again, as Kh Sujin says.
        ----------

        N: "When we speak about the difference between nama and rupa, we
        should not think that this means between seeing and visible object,
        hearing and sound, thus, pairwise, because it depends on the sati what
        types of realities appear when there is the first vipassanaa ~naa.na.
        Some people think that it has to be pairwise. That is not so."
        -------
        S: Sati arises when it does. For me, as I mentioned, sound/hearing seems
        to become a focus. Maybe someday I'll know something about this. But
        not all neat and pair-wise - however it arises.
        -----
        N: As you say, however it arises. For another person hardness or
        feeling may appear more often, no rule at all.
        ---------

        N: "When there are conditions for the arising of the first stage of
        vipassanaa ~naa.na, naama and ruupa are experienced one at a time in
        several mind-door processes. Then it is clear what a mind-door
        process is. Naama is clearly known as naama, not blended or mixed
        with ruupa such as is the case right now."
        -------
        S: I'm still prone to take the above literally, that is, that one would
        actually experience this - some sort of metaphor like "time-lapse
        photography" comes always to mind - but I don't really know how this
        is said to actually be experienced.
        -----------
        N: I do not know about photos (hardly ever take one), but one thing
        is sure: we cannot have any idea how this is. When time comes. I just
        remember Kh Sujin's words: now the mind-door is as it were hidden,
        but then, at the moment of insight, the sense-door is as it were
        hidden, since insight knowledge realizes through the mind-door nama
        as nama and rupa as rupa.
        ---------

        N: "It struck me that you said, piiti is more coarse than happy
        feeling, and then I found that the jhaanafactor piti is more coarse,
        when reading the Vis."
        -------
        S: I think I've experienced it. I'm not sure. It feels "bodily" somehow.
        ----
        N: It causes bodily phenomena.
        ---------

        N: "Jhaanafactors have to be developed in order to attain jhaana, but
        as higher stages are attained not all factors are needed, they are
        abandoned. The coarser ones are abandoned stage by stage, because
        jhaana becomes more refined. The translation is confusing, because
        piiti is transl. as happiness and happy feeling as bliss."
        ------
        S:It is confusing to me.
        ------
        N: This is Nyanamoli. Therefore better stick to the Pali: piiti and
        sukha (meaning here somanassa).
        ----------
        N: "I am referring to cittajaruupa, mind-produced ruupa, and that
        includes piiti that in particular conditions bodily phenomena. An
        example is given of a girl who wanted to hear Dhamma and could
        levitate the body in her enthusiasm. Also akusala piiti, apart from
        jhaana can condition levitation."
        ---------
        S:The levitation would be ruupa? Cittajaruupa in particular? And,
        whether one or the other, of no final consequence, really.
        -------
        N: Yes, bodily phenomena, cittajaruupa, and piiti in particular
        condiitoned that. Not so important, not essential. It just happened.
        When we see so called miracles they are phenomena due to the proper
        conditions.
        ----------
        Nina.








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Scott Duncan
        Dear Nina, Thank you very much, as always. N: It does not matter, then thinking is the reality that appears. Yes. This is it, isn t it? Each reality as it
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 3, 2006
          Dear Nina,

          Thank you very much, as always.

          N: "It does not matter, then thinking is the reality that appears."

          Yes. This is it, isn't it? Each reality as it appears.

          S: "Is it theoretically possible for pa~n~na to arise to such a
          degree that one can actually differentiate dhammas in this fashion?

          N: "Sure, otherwise there would be no Path as taught by the Buddha.
          Only, we do not know when, but again, this does not matter. We can
          begin again and again, as Kh Sujin says."

          Again, yes. It doesn't matter but I'm glad to have an answer to this
          question!

          N: "When there are conditions for the arising of the first stage of
          vipassanaa ~naa.na, naama and ruupa are experienced one at a time in
          several mind-door processes. Then it is clear what a mind-door
          process is. Naama is clearly known as naama, not blended or mixed
          with ruupa such as is the case right now."

          N: "I just remember Kh Sujin's words: now the mind-door is as it were
          hidden, but then, at the moment of insight, the sense-door is as it
          were hidden, since insight knowledge realizes through the mind-door
          nama as nama and rupa as rupa."

          Okay, this is really deep. And it makes sense somehow. Insight
          knowledge is a mind-door phenomenon. In effect this is saying that a
          reversal of the ordinary way occurs. The usual sense-door process is
          occluded and the realisation occurs through the mind door. This would
          mean that the realisation itself is, of course, naama. How is it that
          ruupa is known as ruupa?

          S:" The levitation would be ruupa? Cittajaruupa in particular? And,
          whether one or the other, of no final consequence, really."

          N: "Yes, bodily phenomena, cittajaruupa, and piiti in particular
          conditioned that. Not so important, not essential. It just happened.
          When we see so called miracles they are phenomena due to the proper
          conditions."

          Thanks, that makes sense. I'm learning a lot from you, Nina.

          With loving kindness,

          Scott.
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Scott, Kel answered your questions very well. Perhaps I can add something. S: But it is through the mind-door that seeing can be knowing, is this
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 8, 2006
            Dear Scott,

            Kel answered your questions very well. Perhaps I can add something.

            S: But it is through the mind-door that "seeing" can be "knowing," is
            this right?
            ------
            N: Seeing knows or cognizes the object, visible object. Seeing is
            also a kind of knowing.
            ------
            S:That is, pa~n~na does not arise at the sense door, just
            citta with the universals. It is only through the mind-door that the
            mental factors operate.
            --------
            N: As Kel said, the sense-door javanas can be accompanied by
            pa~n~naa, thus, even before an object is defined. This shows us, how
            fast cittas run, and that whatever votthapana determines is according
            to accumulations. There is no time to *do* anything, to promote the
            arising of kusala and pa~n~naa.
            Also the cetasikas accompanying cittas of a sense-door process
            perform their functions. As I said before, applied thinking and
            sustained thinking (vitakka and vicara) accompany the receiving-
            consciousness, sampa.ticchanacitta and the other cittas of the sense-
            door process. This is not thinking in conventional sense, they direct
            citta towards the object, they touch or hit the object.
            -------

            S: I read in The Debate of King Milinda, chapter 3, numbers 7 and 8:

            "Does mind-consciousness arise whenever eye-consciousness arises?"
            "Yes, O King, where the one is there the other is."
            "Which arises first?"
            "First eye-consciousness then mind-consciousness."
            "Does eye-consciousness issue a command to mind-consciousness or vice
            versa?"
            "No there is no communication between them..."

            "Where there is mind consciousness, Naagasena, is there always contact
            and feeling?"
            "Yes, where there is mind-consciousness there is always contact and
            feeling. Also perception, intention, initial application, and
            sustained application."
            --------
            N: As Kel said, this is also in a sense-door process. Initial
            application, and
            sustained application are the translations of vitakka and vicara.
            Mind-consciousness is the translation of mano-vi~n~naa.na. This
            includes all cittas apart from the sense-cognitions and mano-dhaatu
            which is sense-door adverting-consciousness and the two types of
            sampaticchanacitta.
            Thus, mind consciousness or mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu can refer to
            santiira.nacitta, votthapanacitta and the javanas of a sense-door
            process and to registration-consciousness.
            Maybe your dilemma is solved now?

            The Milinda passage illustrates that cittas do not give commands to
            each other: do this, do that.
            They are elements and they arise according to their proper conditions.
            Nina. _,_._,___



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Scott Duncan
            Dear Nina, Thank you. N: Maybe your dilemma is solved now? I think so. I ll think about it more. You (and Kel) have helped clarify. N: The Milinda
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 8, 2006
              Dear Nina,

              Thank you.

              N: "Maybe your dilemma is solved now?"

              I think so. I'll think about it more. You (and Kel) have helped clarify.

              N: "The Milinda passage illustrates that cittas do not give commands to
              each other: do this, do that.
              They are elements and they arise according to their proper conditions."

              I like the Debate of King Milinda.

              With loving kindness,

              Scott.
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