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Re: [dsg] re: our discussions in Paris, no 5.

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  • han tun
    Dear Nina and Lodewijk, ... sutta and may believe that concentration alone could lead to the eradication of defilements. But I am sure you have no
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 2, 2006
      Dear Nina and Lodewijk,

      > N: I could add something for those who read this
      sutta and may believe that concentration alone could
      lead to the eradication of defilements. But I am sure
      you have no misunderstanding about this. I think that
      samaadhi 4 is going together with sammaa-di.t.thi of
      the eightfold Path, so that the aasavas can be
      eradicated. It has a function as Path factor, as right
      concentration of the eightfold Path.

      --------------------

      Han: Dear Nina, I have no misunderstanding that
      concentration alone could lead to the eradication of
      taints (aasavakkhaya). There are many suttas where
      Buddha taught insight knowledge must follow (or
      develop together with) jhaana attainments to eradicate
      the taints. The best example that I like is MN 118
      Aanaapaanasati Sutta. In the book translated by
      Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi, on page 1325, Note
      1121, it was mentioned that <This tetrad (i.e., fourth
      tetrad) deals entirely with insight, unlike the
      previous three, which deal with both serenity and
      insight. “Contemplating fading away” and
      “contemplating cessation” can be understood both as
      the insight into the impermanence of formations and as
      the supramundane path realizing Nibbaana, called the
      fading away of lust (i.e., dispassion, viraaga) and
      the cessation of suffering. “Contemplating
      relinquishment” is the giving up of defilements
      through insight and the entering into Nibbaana by
      attainment of the path.> Thus, the fourth tetrad which
      deals entirely with insight is the final step towards
      the liberation; and aniccaanupassii (contemplating
      impermanence), viraagaanupassii (contemplating fading
      away), nirodhaanupassii (contemplating cessation), and
      patinissaggaanupassii (contemplating relinquishment)
      are often used in other suttas as well to indicate the
      fulfillment of Noble Eightfold Path and the
      realization of Nibbaana.

      Here also, in AN IV.41 Samaadhi Bhaavanaa Sutta which
      I had quoted, towards the later part of the sutta, the
      Buddha said: <And what is the development of
      concentration that leads to the destruction of the
      taints? Here, a monk dwells contemplating rise and
      fall (udayabbayaanupassii viharati) in the five
      aggregates subject to clinging: “Such is form, such
      its arising (ruupassa samudayo), such its passing away
      (ruupassa atthangamo); such is feeling ….. such is
      perception ….. such are the volitional formations …..
      such is consciousness, such its arising, such its
      passing away.” This is the development of
      concentration that leads to the destruction of the
      taints.> Bhikkhu Bodhi’s Notes on this paragraph:
      <This is concentration associated with insight
      meditation directed to the rise and fall of the five
      aggregates. Perception of rise and fall brings to
      light the characteristic of impermanence, and on the
      basis of this the meditator discerns that whatever is
      impermanent is suffering and non-self. See Vism. XX,
      93-104.>

      Respectfully,
      Han



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    • nina van gorkom
      Dear Han, Yes, I know that you do not have misunderstandings as to samatha and insight, you know all the texts very well. You quoted Ven. Bodhi, referring to
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 4, 2006
        Dear Han,
        Yes, I know that you do not have misunderstandings as to samatha and
        insight, you know all the texts very well.

        You quoted Ven. Bodhi, referring to Vis. XX, 93-104.

        This is difficult to realize very precisely. I mean the arising and falling
        away of precisely one naama or one ruupa at a time. The Vis. states in 93
        that this knowledge comes after comprehension knowledge, and this means
        knowing nama and rupa as conditioned dhammas. I cannot say much, since I do
        not have direct knowledge even of the difference between naama and ruupa,
        which is the first stage of insight.

        I listened to Kh. Sujin speaking about death. Seeing it as khanika marana,
        momentary death. We usually think of conventional death, sammutti marana,
        the end of a lifespan. But when we realize the falling away of seeing or
        hearing by insight we can understand momentary death.

        When people have fear of death, it is really the moments before death. The
        dying-consciousness, cuti-citta, is only one moment, and just like the
        bhavangacitta arising in deep sleep. One will not realize this citta, it is
        so fast. Just as the citta now is succeeded by the following citta is cuti
        citta followed by the rebirth-consciousness.

        I understand this intellectually, but not through insight. I think we are
        uncertain about the future, what will happen. What kind of rebirth.
        Another person remarked that we love ourselves so much that we do not like
        the idea of having to part from our individuality now. How true.
        Han, I would value it to know your personal view and experience about this.
        You are a medical doctor and have seen many people die.
        Nina.

        op 03-06-2006 00:31 schreef han tun op hantun1@...:

        > Bhikkhu Bodhi’s Notes on this paragraph:
        > <This is concentration associated with insight
        > meditation directed to the rise and fall of the five
        > aggregates. Perception of rise and fall brings to
        > light the characteristic of impermanence, and on the
        > basis of this the meditator discerns that whatever is
        > impermanent is suffering and non-self. See Vism. XX,
        > 93-104.>
      • han tun
        Dear Nina, ... moments before death. The dying-consciousness, cuti-citta, is only one moment, and just like the bhavangacitta arising in deep sleep. One will
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 4, 2006
          Dear Nina,

          > N: When people have fear of death, it is really the
          moments before death. The dying-consciousness,
          cuti-citta, is only one moment, and just like the
          bhavangacitta arising in deep sleep. One will not
          realize this citta, it is so fast. Just as the citta
          now is succeeded by the following citta is cuti citta
          followed by the rebirth-consciousness. I understand
          this intellectually, but not through insight. I think
          we are uncertain about the future, what will happen.
          What kind of rebirth. Another person remarked that we
          love ourselves so much that we do not like the idea of
          having to part from our individuality now. How true.
          Han, I would value it to know your personal view and
          experience about this. You are a medical doctor and
          have seen many people die.

          ----------------------------

          Han:
          I am also interested in momentary death (khanika
          marana), and the conventional death (sammutti marana),
          and the moments just before death. That’s why I had
          posted messages on “dying moments” in Discussion
          Groups.

          In Abhidhamma books: <To those who are about to die,
          by the power of kamma that is going to condition the
          next rebirth, one of the following three objects
          always presents itself through one of the six doors:
          (1) kamma object, or (2) kamma-nimitta, or (3)
          gati-nimitta.> My main question in my posts was: can
          we not do something to have favorable nimittas, or are
          we entirely and helplessly at the mercy of the kamma
          “conditions” that will produce those nimittas at the
          last crucial moments. I want to believe that we can
          influence, to some extent, to have positive nimittas
          by performing meritorious deeds throughout our lives
          to accumulate habitual or aacinna-kamma, hoping that
          this kamma will produce results in the absence of
          death-proximate or aasanna-kamma, or even over-riding
          it. Whether it is possible or not from the point of
          view of abhidhamma doctrine does not matter for me; I
          want to believe it in that way anyhow. I want to
          believe it that way, because that belief will be one
          big incentive for me to do wholesome deeds all the
          time and not to do any unwholesome deeds.

          Talking about death, with modern medical science, it
          is difficult to determine how a dying person would
          react, because in most cases the dying patients in the
          hospitals are under heavy sedation to reduce
          apprehension or pain as in terminal cancer patients,
          or they are put on live-saving appliances and
          machines. Before and during World War II, in the
          villages and small towns where I lived, there was no
          western medical doctor and we had to depend on
          traditional practitioners and traditional
          birth-attendants. There I had witnessed people dying
          in their natural way. Elderly people usually stopped
          farming (Burma is basically an agricultural country)
          at the age of around 60, and they went to monasteries
          everyday to offer alms to the monks and to listen to
          their dhamma talks, observing eight or ten precepts,
          and doing veyaavacca or services at the monasteries.
          When these people died they usually died peaceful
          without any fear of death. It might be due to their
          belief that since they had done meritorious deeds
          their future rebirth in blissful realms had been
          secured.

          Among younger people I still remember two cases where
          death came swiftly due to uncontrollable bleeding. One
          case was a mother giving birth and the local
          birth-attendant could not control the post-partum
          bleeding. Another case was a shooting accident during
          hunting, the bullet passing through the liver causing
          uncontrollable bleeding. In both cases, the first
          reaction was fear of death. But once they knew that
          they were going to die, they seemed to resign to death
          and died peacefully. I notice that those who die of
          excessive bleeding remain conscious up to the last
          moment. Therefore they usually have clear mind and
          they can talk up to the last minute. The mother who
          was dying during child birth calmly asked her husband
          to look after her children after her death. The man
          who was shot during hunting accident could also talk
          to the last minute and he told his friends what he
          wanted them to tell his wife and died without any
          fear. So, I think once a person knows that he is going
          to die he can in most cases surmount the fear, and the
          concern that he shows is not so much for himself, but
          for the ones whom he loves.

          Therefore your comment is very true: <”I understand
          this intellectually, but not through insight. I think
          we are uncertain about the future, what will happen.
          What kind of rebirth.”> The uncertainty of what will
          happen or where we will be reborn is much more
          fearsome than the actual death itself. Therefore, if I
          believe that I will have a good rebirth because of my
          meritorious deeds I will not be afraid of death. That
          belief in itself might even form kusala kamma
          accumulations to condition the arising of good
          nimittas. Even if it does not work that way, the
          appearance of nimittas and the arising of cuti citta
          will be so fast I might not even notice it!

          Your other comment: <”Another person remarked that we
          love ourselves so much that we do not like the idea of
          having to part from our individuality now.”> I think
          for most of us, as I mentioned above, the bigger
          concern might be not willing to part from our loved
          ones rather than not willing to part from our
          individuality. But, of course, it will depend on the
          cultural background of the individuals.

          Respectfully,
          Han



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        • nina van gorkom
          Dear Han, thank you for your beautiful post on death, I really appreciate it. You said you had written more posts on it, could you please repost them on dsg? I
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 5, 2006
            Dear Han,
            thank you for your beautiful post on death, I really appreciate it.
            You said you had written more posts on it, could you please repost them on
            dsg?
            I give you a few of my reactions.

            op 05-06-2006 08:48 schreef han tun op hantun1@...:
            . Before and during World War II, in the
            > villages and small towns where I lived, there was no
            > western medical doctor and we had to depend on
            > traditional practitioners and traditional
            > birth-attendants. There I had witnessed people dying
            > in their natural way. Elderly people usually stopped
            > farming (Burma is basically an agricultural country)
            > at the age of around 60, and they went to monasteries
            > everyday to offer alms to the monks and to listen to
            > their dhamma talks, observing eight or ten precepts,
            > and doing veyaavacca or services at the monasteries.
            > When these people died they usually died peaceful
            > without any fear of death. It might be due to their
            > belief that since they had done meritorious deeds
            > their future rebirth in blissful realms had been
            > secured.
            -------
            N: I like this example about people in the country very much. A simple life
            full of kusala, and there is no place for fear of death.
            ----------
            >
            H: Among younger people I still remember two cases where
            > death came swiftly due to uncontrollable bleeding. .... In both cases, the
            first reaction was fear of death. But once they knew that
            > they were going to die, they seemed to resign to death
            > and died peacefully. I notice that those who die of
            > excessive bleeding remain conscious up to the last
            > moment. Therefore they usually have clear mind and
            > they can talk up to the last minute. The mother who
            > was dying during child birth calmly asked her husband
            > to look after her children after her death. The man
            > who was shot during hunting accident could also talk
            > to the last minute and he told his friends what he
            > wanted them to tell his wife and died without any
            > fear. So, I think once a person knows that he is going
            > to die he can in most cases surmount the fear, and the
            > concern that he shows is not so much for himself, but
            > for the ones whom he loves.
            --------
            N: these are touching examples of people not thinking of themselves, only
            having concern for others. Yes, the best way to overcome fear.
            --------->
            H: The uncertainty of what will
            > happen or where we will be reborn is much more
            > fearsome than the actual death itself. Therefore, if I
            > believe that I will have a good rebirth because of my
            > meritorious deeds I will not be afraid of death. That
            > belief in itself might even form kusala kamma
            > accumulations to condition the arising of good
            > nimittas. Even if it does not work that way, the
            > appearance of nimittas and the arising of cuti citta
            > will be so fast I might not even notice it!
            ------
            N: Yes, it is all so fast. Confidence in the Triple Gem can grow when we
            develop more understanding of what he taught. There can be gratefulness for
            the Dhamma, we still have an opportunity to hear it.
            --------
            H: Your other comment: <”Another person remarked that we
            > love ourselves so much that we do not like the idea of
            > having to part from our individuality now.”>
            > I think
            > for most of us, as I mentioned above, the bigger
            > concern might be not willing to part from our loved
            > ones rather than not willing to part from our
            > individuality. But, of course, it will depend on the
            > cultural background of the individuals.
            -------
            N: I think that this love of self is so deep-rooted.
            --------
            H:
            . I want to believe that we can
            > influence, to some extent, to have positive nimittas
            > by performing meritorious deeds throughout our lives
            > to accumulate habitual or aacinna-kamma, hoping that
            > this kamma will produce results in the absence of
            > death-proximate or aasanna-kamma, or even over-riding
            > it. Whether it is possible or not from the point of
            > view of abhidhamma doctrine does not matter for me; I
            > want to believe it in that way anyhow. I want to
            > believe it that way, because that belief will be one
            > big incentive for me to do wholesome deeds all the
            > time and not to do any unwholesome deeds.
            --------
            N: I think it is saddhaa, confidence in kusala which gives you a sense of
            urgency. We do not have to think about influencing kamma; as you said, there
            is no time just before death.
            I discussed this point with Lodewijk and he thinks that the development of
            the perfections, paramis, is the greatest help. All good deeds, daana, siila
            and bhaavana are included in them. We can learn to develop them without
            thinking of any gain for ourselves, such as a happy rebirth, but solely with
            the aim to have less defilements. Only then are they perfections. When we do
            not think of ourselves, as you showed with your examples, there is no place
            for fear.
            This is the way of dhammaadhipatteyya, dhamma as the predominant influence,
            as I wrote to Phil.
            Khun Sujin, in her book about the perfections, shows of each perfection how
            it is to be developed. And, she said, we do not have to think: I want to
            develop the perfections, then there can still be a thought of self love. No
            thinking, just doing.
            I quoted on the Pali list a text of the Saddhaniti that I find appropriate.
            The Saddaniti, is a grammar written by the Thera Aggava.msa of Pagan, in
            1154. You may be familiar with it, since it is Burmese.

            The Saddaniti states with regard to the meaning of dhamma as pa~n~naa:

            <Yassete caturo dhammaa, saddhassa gharamesino;
            For the householder with confidence there are these four dhammas:

            sacca.m dhammo dhiti caago, sa ve pecca na socatii"ti
            truth, dhamma, courage and generosity, and he truly does not grieve after
            dying.

            Aadiisu pa~n~naaya.m.
            In such passages dhamma refers to wisdom. >

            Yes, I think it is right understanding of naama and ruupa that can lead to
            lessening our fear of death.

            *****
            Nina.
          • han tun
            Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your valuable remarks. I do not have the Saddaniti. I must look for it when I next go to Yangon. As regards my previous
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 5, 2006
              Dear Nina,

              Thank you very much for your valuable remarks.
              I do not have the Saddaniti. I must look for it when I
              next go to Yangon.

              As regards my previous posts on “dying moments” which
              I had posted in other forum I have deleted them from
              my files because I did not hear what I wanted to hear
              from others. I can be, at times, very stubborn in my
              own foolish way. (:>)

              If I were to write it again it would be like listening
              to an old gramophone. When a gramophone record gets
              very old the grooves on it are damaged and the needle
              would go round and round in the same groove without
              proceeding to the rest of the record. I would say
              something and others would say no. I would say yes and
              others would say no. It will get nowhere! (:>)

              Respectfully,
              Han


              --- nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
              > Dear Han,
              > thank you for your beautiful post on death, I really
              > appreciate it.
              > You said you had written more posts on it, could you
              > please repost them on dsg?
              > --------
              > N: I think it is saddhaa, confidence in kusala which
              > gives you a sense of urgency. We do not have to
              > think about influencing kamma; as you said, there
              > is no time just before death.
              > I discussed this point with Lodewijk and he thinks
              > that the development of the perfections, paramis, is
              > the greatest help. All good deeds, daana, siila
              > and bhaavana are included in them. We can learn to
              > develop them without thinking of any gain for
              > ourselves, such as a happy rebirth, but solely with
              > the aim to have less defilements. Only then are they
              > perfections.
              -----------
              > I quoted on the Pali list a text of the Saddhaniti
              > that I find appropriate.
              > The Saddaniti, is a grammar written by the Thera
              > Aggava.msa of Pagan, in 1154. You may be familiar
              > with it, since it is Burmese.
              >
              > The Saddaniti states with regard to the meaning of
              > dhamma as pa~n~naa:
              >
              > <Yassete caturo dhammaa, saddhassa gharamesino;
              > For the householder with confidence there are these
              > four dhammas:
              > sacca.m dhammo dhiti caago, sa ve pecca na
              > socatii"ti
              > truth, dhamma, courage and generosity, and he truly
              > does not grieve after dying.
              > Aadiisu pa~n~naaya.m.
              > In such passages dhamma refers to wisdom. >
              >
              > Yes, I think it is right understanding of naama and
              > ruupa that can lead to lessening our fear of death.
              > *****
              > Nina.


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            • nina van gorkom
              Dear Han, op 06-06-2006 03:16 schreef han tun op hantun1@yahoo.com: As regards my previous posts on “dying moments” which I had posted in other forum I
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 6, 2006
                Dear Han,

                op 06-06-2006 03:16 schreef han tun op hantun1@...:

                As regards my previous posts on “dying moments” which
                I had posted in other forum I have deleted them from
                my files because I did not hear what I wanted to hear
                from others. I can be, at times, very stubborn in my
                own foolish way. (:>)
                -------
                N: I know that it can be hard to take unpleasant words, but this belongs to
                the eight worldly conditions of praise, blame, etc. Within five minutes
                there can be praise and blame, but we have to learn to take them in our
                stride. The hearing is result of kamma, nobody can control it.
                Kh. Sujin would say, it is the clinging to self. Of course, we all do. The
                question is: are we learning? Do we know when there is self love?
                It helps me to consider the perfection of patience the Bodhisatta developed.
                He said, if there are no contrarious people how could I develop patience? My
                patience is far from good, but I know that if I neglect patience I will
                never attain enlightenment in the future. We have to keep an eye on the
                future, we have to be farsighted, like the Bodhisatta.
                Someone kept on saying to me: now you keep quiet, you keep quiet. It worked
                on my nerves. Kh Sujin said: let her say this again and again. See, she
                gives reminders to us in the situations of life and these are like a test.
                She said: daily life is the test for your understanding.
                Perhaps you did not like to hear what you heard when you were present at the
                session in the Foundation, is that not so? I can understand this, but in
                future you may come to appreciate bitter medicine and appreciate being
                reminded of clinging to self.
                It is not pleasant to hear, but for worldlings it is the truth. I believe
                that we need to hear this again and again, never enough.
                Truthfulness, sacca, is another perfection the Bodhisatta developed.
                --------
                H: If I were to write it again it would be like listening
                to an old gramophone. I would say
                something and others would say no. I would say yes and
                others would say no. It will get nowhere! (:>)
                ------
                N: I like to listen anyway to your old record.
                The yes and no: Sarah said that there is no need for agreement. An important
                principle on the list, I would say. Some people will profit from what you
                write but you may not know this, since they do not tell you. So what? It is
                your kusala intention to write, that is all. Others may not agree, so what?
                Why should we mind if people do not agree?
                I hope Sarah will add something to this.

                Nina.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • han tun
                Dear Nina, Nina: Perhaps you did not like to hear what you heard when you were present at the session in the Foundation, is that not so? I can understand this,
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 6, 2006
                  Dear Nina,

                  Nina: Perhaps you did not like to hear what you heard
                  when you were present at the session in the
                  Foundation, is that not so? I can understand this, but
                  in future you may come to appreciate bitter medicine
                  and appreciate being reminded of clinging to self. It
                  is not pleasant to hear, but for worldlings it is the
                  truth. I believe that we need to hear this again and
                  again, never enough. Truthfulness, sacca, is another
                  perfection the Bodhisatta developed.

                  Han: When I posted my messages at the other forum I
                  was not even a member of DSG and I had not yet been to
                  the session in the Foundation. When I said “I have
                  deleted them from my files because I did not hear what
                  I wanted to hear from others”, I was referring to the
                  response from other members of that forum.

                  ------------------------------

                  N: I like to listen anyway to your old record. The yes
                  and no: Sarah said that there is no need for
                  agreement.

                  Han: What do you mean by “The yes and no”?

                  Respectfully,
                  Han



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                • nina van gorkom
                  Dear Han (and Christine at the end), op 07-06-2006 02:10 schreef han tun op hantun1@yahoo.com: Han: When I posted my messages at the other forum I was not even
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 7, 2006
                    Dear Han (and Christine at the end),
                    op 07-06-2006 02:10 schreef han tun op hantun1@...:

                    Han: When I posted my messages at the other forum I
                    was not even a member of DSG and I had not yet been to
                    the session in the Foundation. When I said “I have
                    deleted them from my files because I did not hear what
                    I wanted to hear from others”, I was referring to the
                    response from other members of that forum.

                    ------------------------------

                    N: I like to listen anyway to your old record. The yes
                    and no: Sarah said that there is no need for
                    agreement.

                    Han: What do you mean by “The yes and no”?
                    ------
                    N: I was referring to debates containing agreements and disagreements, but
                    it is not all that important. I find it useful that Sarah reminds us that
                    there is no need for
                    agreement. It helps us not to take too much to heart what others say, we do
                    our best.

                    As to chahaakaarehi, you were right. akaara is mode, and chahi
                    (instrumentalis)+akaara becomes chahaakaara, and then the ending ehi: in six
                    modes.
                    Something adding to Ven. Dhammanando's reference to the subco Diigha
                    Nikaaya: I understand that there were these six inclinations in his later
                    lives. But, it is also true that the Bodhisatta never stopped accumulating
                    all the perfections until his attainment of Buddhahood. And another matter:
                    all ten perfections are interrelated.
                    We should see the connection between them, as I see it.
                    ****
                    Nina.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • han tun
                    Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanations. I wrote my posts on “Dying Moments” as far back as December 2002 in one forum. (I remember this
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 7, 2006
                      Dear Nina,

                      Thank you very much for your kind explanations.

                      I wrote my posts on “Dying Moments” as far back as
                      December 2002 in one forum. (I remember this date
                      because it was my very first exposure to Dhamma
                      Discussion Groups on the internet.) I repeated them in
                      another forum about a year or two later. (I do not
                      remember the exact dates now.) But now I cannot find
                      these old records. You will not believe me (Tep knows
                      very well my computer expertise!), I still do not know
                      how to open Files in the computer. I keep the
                      information in floppy diskettes. They are not
                      catalogued and I can loose them very easily.
                      Therefore, I have lost my old records but I will write
                      them again.

                      One thing I would like to request you and other
                      members is to have patience with me because I will be
                      quoting passages from the books before I write my
                      thoughts and conclusions. You all may be very familiar
                      with those quotes, but please bear with me because my
                      later thoughts and conclusions will be based on those
                      quotes.

                      I will write them under a subject title of “Dying
                      Moments.”.

                      Respectfully,
                      Han


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                    • han tun
                      Dying Moments – 1 Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Sarah and others, I am writing these posts to know exactly what happens just before a person dies, and what can be
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 7, 2006
                        Dying Moments – 1

                        Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Sarah and others,

                        I am writing these posts to know exactly what happens
                        just before a person dies, and what can be done to
                        have a favorable rebirth at the next life. In so
                        doing, I will be quoting a series of extracts on which
                        I will base my thoughts and conclusions later on.

                        The following is taken from The Essence of Buddha
                        Abhidhamma, by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon.

                        In Chapter V on Vithimut, there are four groups of
                        fours as follows.

                        Fourfold Catukkas.

                        ‘Catukka’ means ‘a group of four’. The fourfold
                        catukkas are:
                        (a) Bhuumi-catukka, four planes of existence.
                        (b) Patisandhi-catukka, four modes of rebirth.
                        (c) Kamma-catukka, four kinds of action.
                        (d) Maranuppatti-catukka, fourfold advent of death.

                        ----------

                        Out of these four groups, the subject matter which I
                        am writing concerns with groups (c) and (d).
                        First, let us see group (c).

                        (c) Kamma-catukka, four kinds of action.

                        (1) kicca-kamma catukka, with respect to function.
                        (2) paakadaanapariyaaya-kamma catukka, with respect to
                        priority in bearing results.
                        (3) paakakaala-kamma catukka, with respect to the time
                        of taking effect.
                        (4) pakathaana-kamma catukka, with respect to the
                        place where the kammic effect takes place.

                        ----------

                        Again, out of these four kinds of action, the subject
                        matter concerns with No. (2).

                        (2) paakadaanapariyaaya-kamma catukka, with respect to
                        priority in bearing results.

                        (i) garuka-kamma, weighty kammas.
                        (ii) aasanna-kamma, death-proximate kamma that is
                        performed or remenmbered just before death.
                        (iii) aacinna-kamma, habitual kamma which is performed
                        regularly, or it may be a kamma which is performed
                        once, and is recollected and remembered all the time.
                        (iv) katattaa-kamma, unspecified kamma which is done
                        once and soon forgotten.

                        Garuka-kamma or weighty kamma is so strong that no
                        other kamma can stop its function in the next life. In
                        other words, it certainly produces its results in the
                        next life. Bad weighty kammas are: creating a schism
                        in the Sangha, wounding of the Buddha, murdering an
                        arahant, matricide, and patricide.
                        Niyata-micchaaditthi, permanent false view is also one
                        of the bad weighty kammas. On the other hand, 5
                        ruupaavacara-kusla kammas and 4 aruupaavacara-kusala
                        kammas are good weighty kammas. Lokuttara-magga is
                        also a weighty force that closes the doors of the four
                        apaaya abodes for ever.

                        If we do not have any garuka-kamma, which is often the
                        case, then we must rely on aasanna-kamma to condition
                        our next life. To get a good aasanna-kamma, sons and
                        daughters or relatives and friends should arrange
                        wholesome deeds such as offering robes to monks or
                        listening to Dhamma-preaching for the person on his or
                        her death-bed. The dying person should also be
                        reminded of his past good deeds.

                        To be sure to get a good aasanna-kamma, however, we
                        should develop an aacinna-kamma while we are alive.
                        The best aacinna-kamma is tranquility or insight
                        meditation which can be performed all the time. When
                        it becomes habitual, it will be remembered and
                        practiced near the time of death.

                        ------------------------------

                        To be continued.

                        Respectfully,
                        Han



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                      • nina van gorkom
                        Dear Han, thank you very much. Dr. Mehm Tin Mon was mentioned before here, a very good author. Good you quote from him. We are never bored with texts that are
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 8, 2006
                          Dear Han,
                          thank you very much. Dr. Mehm Tin Mon was mentioned before here, a very good
                          author. Good you quote from him.
                          We are never bored with texts that are quoted again.
                          Yes, I think it is beneficial to develop the kusala kamma that is insight
                          and gain greater and greater confidence in this kamma.
                          Nina.
                          op 08-06-2006 06:29 schreef han tun op hantun1@...:

                          The following is taken from The Essence of Buddha
                          Abhidhamma, by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • han tun
                          Dying Moments – 2 Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Sarah and others, The following is taken from The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma, by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon. The Simile of
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 8, 2006
                            Dying Moments – 2

                            Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Sarah and others,

                            The following is taken from The Essence of Buddha
                            Abhidhamma, by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon.

                            The Simile of a Cattle-shed.

                            [This is the continuation of the kamma-catukka
                            (garuka-kamma, aasanna-kamma, aacinna-kamma,
                            katattaa-kamma)]

                            Suppose that many cattle are kept in a big shed for
                            the night. In the morning the door of the shed is
                            opened to let the cattle go out to the pasture. Now
                            which one will come out first?

                            All the cattle want to get out as soon as possible. If
                            there is an exceptionally strong big one, this one
                            will walk majestically to the door and come out first.
                            This one is like a garuka-kamma which is uncontested
                            to bear its result in the next life.

                            Now, if there is no exceptionally strong big one, the
                            one nearest the door may come out first. This is
                            similar to the aasanna-kamma bearing its fruit in the
                            next life.

                            Sometimes a vigilant one, which has regularly noticed
                            the time when the shed is opened, may walk to the door
                            just before it is opened and come out first when the
                            door is opened. This is like the aacinna-kamma
                            producing its result in the next life.

                            Sometimes an unexpected frail one, by being pushed by
                            stronger ones, may come out of the shed first. This is
                            similar to the case when an unexpected katattaa-kamma
                            has the chance to condition the next life.

                            ------------------------------

                            To be continued.

                            Respectfully,
                            Han



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                          • sarah abbott
                            Dear Nina (& Han), ... ..... S: :-) A good reminder! ... ... S: I like this one too! Yes, it doesn t matter at all if people disagree or have other ideas of
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 9, 2006
                              Dear Nina (& Han),

                              --- nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                              >Do we know when there is self love?
                              > It helps me to consider the perfection of patience the Bodhisatta
                              > developed.
                              > He said, if there are no contrarious people how could I develop
                              > patience?
                              .....
                              S: :-) A good reminder!
                              ....
                              > Someone kept on saying to me: now you keep quiet, you keep quiet. It
                              > worked
                              > on my nerves. Kh Sujin said: let her say this again and again.
                              ...
                              S: I like this one too! Yes, it doesn't matter at all if people disagree
                              or have other ideas of how we should behave.
                              ...
                              > Others may not agree, so
                              > what?
                              > Why should we mind if people do not agree?
                              > I hope Sarah will add something to this.
                              ...
                              S: I'm not sure what more to add. As Han mentioned, he wasn't referring to
                              anything here or in Bkk when he made a comment about his past posts.

                              As you say, 'so what?' if people don't agree with us or if we don't agree
                              with others. It's bound to be like that all the time. Isn't it an
                              indication of being easy to speak to when people know they can comment
                              freely? And aren't we all wrong a lot of the time in what we say? As
                              K.Sujin said before, seeing how little we know and how often we make
                              mistakes in what we think or say is a way of appreciating the great wisdom
                              of the Buddha.

                              Han, I appreciate all your posts. There was a very good one on the Samadhi
                              Sutta, also your reply to Christine on the inclinations with the Pali was
                              helpful and now I'm very glad to read your series on Death and further
                              discussions with Nina and Lodewijk. Thank you.

                              Metta,

                              Sarah
                              p.s Han, we'll look f/w to meeting you in Bangkok when we visit,
                              mid-August.
                              =====
                            • han tun
                              Dying Moments – 3 Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Sarah and others, The following is taken from The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma, by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon. Maranaasanna
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jun 9, 2006
                                Dying Moments – 3

                                Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Sarah and others,

                                The following is taken from The Essence of Buddha
                                Abhidhamma, by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon.

                                Maranaasanna Nimittas (kamma-related objects at the
                                dying moments)

                                In the present life, a person will be alive as long as
                                the kusala-kamma (wholesome deed), which has given him
                                rebirth in this life, keeps on supporting him, i.e.,
                                keeps on producing bhavanga cittas (life-continuum) as
                                kamma-resultant. Just before that supporting kamma
                                fades out, of the many kusala-kammas and
                                akusala-kammas which compete with one another to have
                                the chance of bearing kamma-resultant, one kamma will
                                emerge as the winner.

                                Kamma-object.

                                The successful kamma may appear in the life-continuum
                                (mind-door) of the person as kamma-object. When this
                                happens the person may recollect the good or bad
                                action which he has performed in the past in
                                connection with the successful kamma. The moral or
                                immoral consciousness, experienced at that particular
                                moment, arises now as a fresh consciousness. In other
                                words, it is a recurring of the consciousness which
                                one has experienced in performing the action.

                                Kamma-nimitta.

                                At times, it may be a sign or symbol associated with
                                the successful kamma that appears at one of the
                                sense-doors. It may be one of the five physical
                                objects viewed through one of the five doors as a
                                present object, or viewed through the mind door as a
                                past object. This past or present object associated
                                with the successful kamma is called ‘kamma-nimitta’ or
                                ‘sign of kamma.’

                                For example, let us suppose that a person listens to
                                the Dhamma at his dying moment and this good kamma
                                becomes the successful kamma to bear kamma-resultant
                                for the next life. In this case, the present audible
                                Dhamma words grasped through the ear becomes the
                                ‘kamma-nimitta.’

                                In another case, let us suppose that a dying teacher
                                sees through his mental eye (mano-vi~n~naana) the
                                students he has taught. This is also ‘kamma-nimitta’
                                in the form of a past object which appears at the
                                mind-door.

                                Or, say, in another case, a dying butcher hears the
                                groans of the cattle he has killed. This past audible
                                object is also ‘kamma-nimitta’ presented to him
                                through the mind-door.

                                Gati-nimitta.

                                At times, some symbol of the place in which he is to
                                be reborn according to the successful kamma may appear
                                at the mind-door.

                                For example, celestial beings or celestial mansions,
                                etc., may appear to the dying person if he is to be
                                reborn in one of the celestial abodes; or miserable
                                people in hell or hellhounds, etc., may appear to him
                                if he is to be reborn in hell. These objects related
                                to the place of rebirth are known as ‘gati-nimitta’ or
                                ‘sign of destiny.’
                                ----------
                                Thus, when a person is dying, one of the three types
                                of maranaasanna-nimitta, namely, ‘kamma’,
                                ‘kamma-nimitta’ or ‘gati-nimitta’, will always appear
                                at one of the six sense-doors. The person will die
                                soon after and will be reborn in the next life. Then
                                his patisandhi-citta, bhavanga-citta and cuti-citta in
                                the new life will all grasp the maranaasanna-nimitta
                                of the past life.

                                ------------------------------
                                To be continued.

                                Respectfully,
                                Han




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                              • han tun
                                Dear Sarah (and Nina), Thank you very much for your kind remarks. Towards the end of my Dying Moments series, it will become clear what I meant by “I did not
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jun 9, 2006
                                  Dear Sarah (and Nina),

                                  Thank you very much for your kind remarks.

                                  Towards the end of my Dying Moments series, it will
                                  become clear what I meant by “I did not hear what I
                                  wanted to hear from others” and “I can be, at times,
                                  very stubborn in my own foolish way” which were
                                  entirely related to my previous postings in other
                                  forums.

                                  Please also join in the discussions when I reach the
                                  part on my 'conclusions' in the later part of the
                                  Dying Moments series.

                                  I look forward to seeing you in Bangkok in mid-August.

                                  Respectfully,
                                  Han


                                  --- sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Dear Nina (& Han),

                                  > S: I'm not sure what more to add. As Han mentioned,
                                  > he wasn't referring to anything here or in Bkk when
                                  > he made a comment about his past posts.
                                  >
                                  > Han, I appreciate all your posts. There was a very
                                  > good one on the Samadhi Sutta, also your reply to
                                  > Christine on the inclinations with the Pali was
                                  > helpful and now I'm very glad to read your series on
                                  > Death and further discussions with Nina and
                                  > Lodewijk. Thank you.
                                  >
                                  > Metta,
                                  > Sarah
                                  > p.s Han, we'll look f/w to meeting you in Bangkok
                                  > when we visit, mid-August.
                                  > =====
                                  >

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                                • gazita2002
                                  Hello Sarah, Nina, Han and all I remember a conversation in Gangtok, about patience and how we often mistake our patience for kusala when it is just the
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jun 11, 2006
                                    Hello Sarah, Nina, Han and all

                                    I remember a conversation in Gangtok, about patience and how we
                                    often mistake 'our' patience for kusala when it is just the
                                    opposite. A.Sujin was saying that sometimes it can be viriya
                                    cetasika that we take for me-being-patient.

                                    I recall being very surprised about this as I had previously
                                    thought that whenever 'I' was patient eg waiting in a queue, quietly
                                    telling myself that to refrain from yelling 'hurry up' was kusala
                                    however it invariably is not.

                                    Of course, only sati of the presently arising dhamma would know
                                    whether it was kusala or not. Otherwise, it is really only
                                    guesswork on our part. I imagine one has to be very truthful about
                                    ones intentions at times of 'patience'. Is it truly patience,
                                    Khanti, or are we fooling ourselves.
                                    For me, it feels like a long, long time before then is any
                                    knowing what the present moment consists of; seems like lots of
                                    thinking about this moment but no actually knowing it.

                                    Patience :-0 courage and good cheer,
                                    azita.

                                    PS.GO THE SOCCEROOS !!!!!!!


                                    --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott
                                    <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dear Nina (& Han),
                                    >
                                    > --- nina van gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                                    > >Do we know when there is self love?
                                    > > It helps me to consider the perfection of patience the Bodhisatta
                                    > > developed.
                                    > > He said, if there are no contrarious people how could I develop
                                    > > patience?
                                    > .....
                                    > S: :-) A good reminder!
                                    > ....
                                    > > Someone kept on saying to me: now you keep quiet, you keep
                                    quiet. It
                                    > > worked
                                    > > on my nerves. Kh Sujin said: let her say this again and again.
                                    > ...
                                    > S: I like this one too! Yes, it doesn't matter at all if people
                                    disagree
                                    > or have other ideas of how we should behave.
                                    > ...
                                    > > Others may not agree, so
                                    > > what?
                                    > > Why should we mind if people do not agree?
                                    > > I hope Sarah will add something to this.
                                    > ...
                                  • nina van gorkom
                                    Dear Azita, op 12-06-2006 06:48 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@yahoo.com.au: I remember a conversation in Gangtok, about patience and how we often mistake
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jun 12, 2006
                                      Dear Azita,
                                      op 12-06-2006 06:48 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...:

                                      I remember a conversation in Gangtok, about patience and how we
                                      often mistake 'our' patience for kusala when it is just the
                                      opposite. A.Sujin was saying that sometimes it can be viriya
                                      cetasika that we take for me-being-patient.
                                      -------
                                      N: Excellent reminder. How often we fool ourselves.
                                      I used to be oversensitive when others had denigrating remarks about
                                      Abhidhamma and now this is better. But I am thinking of my patience.
                                      Each akusala citta, also the citta rooted in lobha, means: impatience.
                                      Kh. Sujin explained that when we cling we are not patient.
                                      ------
                                      A: Of course, only sati of the presently arising dhamma would know
                                      whether it was kusala or not. Otherwise, it is really only
                                      guesswork on our part. I imagine one has to be very truthful about
                                      ones intentions at times of 'patience'. Is it truly patience,
                                      Khanti, or are we fooling ourselves.
                                      For me, it feels like a long, long time before then is any
                                      knowing what the present moment consists of; seems like lots of
                                      thinking about this moment but no actually knowing it.
                                      ------
                                      N: Lots of guesswork and thinking, I am glad you mention this. Patience with
                                      developing understanding.
                                      Looking forward to more posts from you!
                                      Nina.



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