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Re: [dsg] Re: A Very Brief Report on My Weekend Meditation "Retreat"

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  • upasaka@aol.com
    Hi, Chris - In a message dated 5/1/06 12:44:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... ==================== No no, no! I was obviously very unclear! He thinks that the
    Message 1 of 8 , May 1, 2006
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      Hi, Chris -

      In a message dated 5/1/06 12:44:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
      cforsyth1@... writes:

      > Thanks for your post about your retreat. Interesting that Ven
      > Gunaratana doesn't think one of what most would call the central
      > teachings of buddhism is significant ... the Ti-lakkhana.
      >
      >
      ====================
      No no, no! I was obviously very unclear! He thinks that the tilakkhana
      are critically important, and that the realization of them is what leads to
      awakening! What he thinks is not significant is the use of 'dhamma' instead of
      'sankhara' in the third line of the following:

      Sabbe sankhara anicca.
      Sabbe sankhara dukkha.
      Sabbe dhamma anatta.

      With metta,
      Howard

      /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
      in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
      phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • upasaka@aol.com
      Hi, Dan - In a message dated 5/1/06 1:04:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@yahoo.com ... ======================= Does it say in some sutta that all three
      Message 2 of 8 , May 1, 2006
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        Hi, Dan -

        In a message dated 5/1/06 1:04:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@...
        writes:

        > How does this square with the standard doctrine that with stream
        > entry the three fetters are shattered?
        >
        =======================
        Does it say in some sutta that all three must be uprooted at the same
        time? If it does, then Bhante Gunaratana must be wrong on that point, though
        not about the main matter of time delay between path and fruit, because the
        Dakkhinvibhanga Sutta does seem to support that.

        With metta,
        Howard

        /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
        in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
        phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • upasaka@aol.com
        Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/4/06 3:01:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... ==================== I see the matter quite oppositely, based on sutta and (what I
        Message 3 of 8 , May 4, 2006
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          Hi, Sarah -

          In a message dated 5/4/06 3:01:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
          sarahprocterabbott@... writes:

          > Howard, I know you were just reporting and not wishing to discuss this
          > further. I appreciate why you see it as some kind of contortion, but I
          > think the support for phala cittas immediately following magga cittas is
          > very strong. I think there was reference to it in one of the recent Vism
          > threads, maybe under anantara paccaya...(following in succession).
          >
          ====================
          I see the matter quite oppositely, based on sutta and (what I
          consider) "sensibleness" ;-), but I am content to simply differ in our opinion on
          this. :-)

          With metta,
          Howard

          /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
          in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
          phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • upasaka@aol.com
          Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 5/4/06 7:56:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... ===================== I really don t have too much to add. I tend towards
          Message 4 of 8 , May 4, 2006
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            Hi, Matheesha -

            In a message dated 5/4/06 7:56:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
            dhammachat@... writes:

            > Hi Howard,
            >
            > H: 2) I learned that I am well suited to standing meditation.
            > It seems to
            > >have several advantages for me.
            >
            > M: Could you explain a bit more?
            >
            =====================
            I really don't have too much to add. I tend towards getting sleepy
            during meditation, a form of sloth & torpor and my chief hindrance. In standing
            meditation, there is, for me, induced the same calm/peace as in sitting
            meditation but greater clarity, greater ease in observing changes and sensations in
            the body, and, most of all, far less sloth & torpor.


            With metta,
            Howard

            /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
            in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
            phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • sarah abbott
            Hi Howard (& Dan), ... D: How does this square with the standard doctrine that with stream ... H: Does it say in some sutta that all three must be
            Message 5 of 8 , May 8, 2006
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              Hi Howard (& Dan),

              --- upasaka@... wrote:
              D:> > How does this square with the standard doctrine that with stream
              > > entry the three fetters are shattered?
              > >
              > =======================
              H:> Does it say in some sutta that all three must be uprooted at
              the
              > same
              > time?
              ....
              S: It certainly spells it out very clearly in the Abhidhamma and the
              commentaries. For example, see the excellent commentary notes given by
              Nyanaponika to the 'Simile of the Cloth'(Vatthuupama Sutta), on-line if I
              recall, where it clearly elaborates on the eradication of the 16
              defilements by sotaapatti-magga, anaagaami-magga and arahatta-magga
              cittas. CMA and the Vism will also give the details.

              In the Nyantiloka dictionary, under 'sotaapanna', it quotes from A.III.87
              (and also an Abh. text):

              "If a man, after the disappearance of the 3 fetters (personality-belief,
              skeptical doubt, attachment to rules and ritual; s. samyojana), has
              entered the stream (to Nibbâna), he is no more subject to rebirth in lower
              worlds, is firmly established, destined to full enlightenment. After
              having passed amongst the heavenly and human beings only seven times more
              through the round of rebirths, he puts an end to suffering. Such a man is
              called 'one with 7 births at the utmost' (sattakkhattu-parama)."
              ...
              S: Here of course, 'entered the stream' refers to the single
              citta,sotaapatti-magga when these defilements are eradicated.
              .....
              >If it does, then Bhante Gunaratana must be wrong on that point,
              > though
              > not about the main matter of time delay between path and fruit, because
              > the
              > Dakkhinvibhanga Sutta does seem to support that.
              .....
              S: Such an interpretation of this sutta would not be in accordance with
              what we read in the Abhidhamma and commentaries. Do you have other suttas
              or textual sources to support this? (It's fine, if you'd rather not
              discuss it further).

              Metta,

              Sarah
              =========
            • upasaka@aol.com
              Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/8/06 4:28:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... ================== Well, the Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta is clear enough to me. I
              Message 6 of 8 , May 8, 2006
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                Hi, Sarah -

                In a message dated 5/8/06 4:28:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                sarahprocterabbott@... writes:

                > S: Such an interpretation of this sutta would not be in accordance with
                > what we read in the Abhidhamma and commentaries. Do you have other suttas
                > or textual sources to support this? (It's fine, if you'd rather not
                > discuss it further).
                >
                ==================
                Well, the Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta is clear enough to me. I haven't made
                a further search, and I don't think I will. I mentioned this matter as part
                of my "retreat report", and I don't have any "emotional investment" in the
                matter. LOL!

                With metta,
                Howard

                /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Herman Hofman
                Hi Howard, ... Yes, that is the way I see it too. Some more about this awakening. When can it be said Sabbe sankhara anicca ? When all sankhara have been seen
                Message 7 of 8 , May 8, 2006
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                  Hi Howard,

                  On 01/05/06, upasaka@... <upasaka@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi, Chris -
                  >
                  > >
                  > ====================
                  > No no, no! I was obviously very unclear! He thinks that the
                  > tilakkhana
                  > are critically important, and that the realization of them is what leads
                  > to
                  > awakening! What he thinks is not significant is the use of 'dhamma'
                  > instead of
                  > 'sankhara' in the third line of the following:
                  >
                  > Sabbe sankhara anicca.
                  > Sabbe sankhara dukkha.
                  > Sabbe dhamma anatta.



                  Yes, that is the way I see it too. Some more about this awakening. When can
                  it be said "Sabbe sankhara anicca"? When all sankhara have been seen as they
                  are? No, that wouldn't work. Not even the Buddha has seen all sankhara. This
                  approach would be an eternalist approach, with the excuse to keep on keeping
                  on, because all sankhara need to be seen to realise the truth of the matter.


                  It can be said "Sabbe sankhara anicca" when the structure of sankhara is
                  understood. That can be understood in the twinkling of an eye, and when it
                  is understood there is no need to keep on watching those dhammas just to
                  make sure there wasn't one that crept in that somehow wasn't anicca :-)




                  --
                  Kind Regards


                  Herman


                  There is ego, but not a self who has it.
                  (Hofman H. 2005)


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                • upasaka@aol.com
                  Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/8/06 6:28:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Howard: LOLOL! Right you are, Herman! ;-) ... ===================== With metta,
                  Message 8 of 8 , May 8, 2006
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                    Hi, Herman -

                    In a message dated 5/8/06 6:28:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                    hhofmeister@... quote me saying:

                    > No no, no! I was obviously very unclear! He thinks that the
                    > >tilakkhana
                    > >are critically important, and that the realization of them is what leads
                    > >to
                    > >awakening! What he thinks is not significant is the use of 'dhamma'
                    > >instead of
                    > >'sankhara' in the third line of the following:
                    > >
                    > > Sabbe sankhara anicca.
                    > > Sabbe sankhara dukkha.
                    > > Sabbe dhamma anatta.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yes, that is the way I see it too. Some more about this awakening. When can
                    > it be said "Sabbe sankhara anicca"? When all sankhara have been seen as they
                    > are? No, that wouldn't work. Not even the Buddha has seen all sankhara. This
                    > approach would be an eternalist approach, with the excuse to keep on keeping
                    > on, because all sankhara need to be seen to realise the truth of the matter.
                    >
                    >

                    > It can be said "Sabbe sankhara anicca" when the structure of sankhara is
                    > understood. That can be understood in the twinkling of an eye, and when it
                    > is understood there is no need to keep on watching those dhammas just to
                    > make sure there wasn't one that crept in that somehow wasn't anicca :-)

                    ----------------------------------------
                    Howard:
                    LOLOL! Right you are, Herman! ;-)
                    ----------------------------------------

                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Kind Regards
                    >
                    >
                    > Herman
                    >
                    =====================
                    With metta,
                    Howard

                    /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                    in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                    phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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