Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [dsg] A Very Brief Report on My Weekend Meditation "Retreat"

Expand Messages
  • nina van gorkom
    Hi Howard, thanks for your report. There are a few problems. Fruition-consciousness is vipaakacitta and it does not eradicate any defilement. Ven. Bhikkhu says
    Message 1 of 11 , May 1, 2006
      Hi Howard,
      thanks for your report. There are a few problems. Fruition-consciousness is
      vipaakacitta and it does not eradicate any defilement. Ven. Bhikkhu says
      doubt and self view are uprooted later on, but only magga-citta eradicates.
      This is strange, because there are no other maggacirras arising before
      fruition.
      Nina.
      op 01-05-2006 04:43 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...:

      > Bhante went into detail about the practicing for fruitions. For
      > example, stream entry is marked by belief in efficacy of rite and ritual being
      > uprooted, then further practice, typically over a long period of time, leads
      > to
      > eventual uprooting of skeptical doubt, and then finally self view is uprooted,
      > at
      > which point is attained the fruition of stream entry.
    • upasaka@aol.com
      Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/1/06 3:35:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... ======================== I may have misrepresented Bhante. I think what he meant was
      Message 2 of 11 , May 1, 2006
        Hi, Nina -

        In a message dated 5/1/06 3:35:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
        vangorko@... writes:

        > Hi Howard,
        > thanks for your report. There are a few problems. Fruition-consciousness is
        > vipaakacitta and it does not eradicate any defilement. Ven. Bhikkhu says
        > doubt and self view are uprooted later on, but only magga-citta eradicates.
        > This is strange, because there are no other maggacirras arising before
        > fruition.
        > Nina.
        >
        ========================
        I may have misrepresented Bhante. I think what he meant was that
        fruition occured after the third fetter was uprooted, not as its cause. (The
        uprooting of the 3rd fetter "marked" the arising of fruition.) Interesting that BB
        speaks of doubt and self view as being uprooted later. That is what Bhikkhu
        Gunaratana said as well, with only belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual
        being uprooted at the initial moment of path consciousness.

        With metta,
        Howard

        /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
        in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
        phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • sarah abbott
        Hi Howard, (Steve & all), ... ... .... S: These suttas are not easy to understand and we discussed this same one and other similar ones in some detail a
        Message 3 of 11 , May 3, 2006
          Hi Howard, (Steve & all),

          --- upasaka@... wrote:
          > 3) Bhante said several things that I found of interest.
          <...>
          > The
          > other matter of interest pertains to the paths and fruits. He does NOT
          > consider
          > path consciousness to be immediately followed by fruition consciousness,
          > and
          > what he points to as evidence is the talk of "the 8 persons" in several
          > suttas,
          > and very specifically to the Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta of the Majhima
          > Nikaya
          > which talks about making offerings to the 8 persons. (It is kind of
          > difficult, was
          > his point, to make an offering to a person of a type who will be such a
          > person for only a millionth of a second - for example, a person who has
          > achieved
          > stream entry path but not yet stream entry fruit!)
          ....
          S: These suttas are not easy to understand and we discussed this same one
          and other similar ones in some detail a while back with Michael B and
          others. He may have also spent time with Ven Gunaratana (or that may have
          been someone else).

          I can't quickly find some of the detailed posts I have in mind, but here's
          one from Michael in support of this point, quoting the same sutta (after
          quoting other texts which clearly indicate the phala cittas immediately
          succeed the magga citta) and Jon's reply. Please see if it makes sense to
          you:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29443
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29805

          Jon wrote:

          "I don't think the sutta reference is to the phala citta. I agree it
          is easy to assume so, given the mention of 'fruition', but the
          commentary to the sutta seems to indicate otherwise -- see footnote
          1298 to para 6 of the sutta (in which the order of the various
          persons is reversed to that in para 5 quoted in your post) which
          indicates that the results of the giving to the various classes of
          person is in *ascending order of magnitude*. Thus the 'one
          practicing for the realization of stream entry fruition' must refer
          to a person who has not yet attained sotapattimagga citta."

          Metta,

          Sarah
          p.s I'll requote the relevant part of the sutta for people to understand
          the context of Jon's comments. There were several other detailed similar
          passages we looked at too. I vaguely recall Steve being involved in the
          discussions. Was that right Steve? Are you there??

          >The relevant portion
          > of the
          > sutta is the following:
          > _________________________
          >
          > 379. [Ananda, there are offerings made to fourteen kinds of individual
          > beings. What are the fourteen? ... (Offerings to buddhas &
          > paccekabuddhas)
          > An offering made to an arahat disciple of the Tathagata is the third
          > kind of
          > offering made to an individual. An offering made to one who is
          > practising to
          > attain Arahatta Fruition (i.e. one who has attained Arahatta Magga) is
          > the
          > fourth kind of offering made to an individual. An offering made to one
          > who is an
          > Anagami is the fifth kind of offering made to an individual. An offering
          > made
          > to one who is practising to attain Anagami Fruition (i.e. one who has
          > attained
          > Anagam Magga) is the sixth kind of offering made to an individual. An
          > offering
          > made to one who is a Sakadagami is the seventh kind of offering made to
          > an
          > individual. offering made to one who is practising to attain Sakadagami
          > Fruition
          > (i.e. one who has attained Sakadagami Magga) is the eighth kind of
          > offering
          > made to an individual. An offering made to one who is a Sotapanna is the
          > ninth
          > kind of offering made to an individual. An offering made to one who is
          > practising to attain Sotapatti Fruition (i.e. one who has attained
          > Sotapatti Magga)
          > is the tenth kind of offering made to an individual.
          > __________________________
        • upasaka@aol.com
          Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/3/06 8:26:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... =========================== I don t wish to argue this point, Sarah. My
          Message 4 of 11 , May 3, 2006
            Hi, Sarah -

            In a message dated 5/3/06 8:26:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
            sarahprocterabbott@... writes:

            > Hi Howard, (Steve &all),
            >
            > --- upasaka@... wrote:
            > > 3) Bhante said several things that I found of interest.
            > <...>
            > >The
            > >other matter of interest pertains to the paths and fruits. He does NOT
            > >consider
            > >path consciousness to be immediately followed by fruition consciousness,
            > >and
            > >what he points to as evidence is the talk of "the 8 persons" in several
            > >suttas,
            > >and very specifically to the Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta of the Majhima
            > >Nikaya
            > >which talks about making offerings to the 8 persons. (It is kind of
            > >difficult, was
            > >his point, to make an offering to a person of a type who will be such a
            > >person for only a millionth of a second - for example, a person who has
            > >achieved
            > >stream entry path but not yet stream entry fruit!)
            > ....
            > S: These suttas are not easy to understand and we discussed this same one
            > and other similar ones in some detail a while back with Michael B and
            > others. He may have also spent time with Ven Gunaratana (or that may have
            > been someone else).
            >
            > I can't quickly find some of the detailed posts I have in mind, but here's
            > one from Michael in support of this point, quoting the same sutta (after
            > quoting other texts which clearly indicate the phala cittas immediately
            > succeed the magga citta) and Jon's reply. Please see if it makes sense to
            > you:
            >
            <snip>
            ===========================
            I don't wish to argue this point, Sarah. My impression is that of
            contortions being made to support a pet perspective. Sorry. :-)

            With metta,
            Howard

            /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
            in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
            phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • seisen_au
            Hi Sarah, John, Howard and All, Yes I can vaguely recall looking into this issue. My understanding is as John pointed out, that in some instances the one
            Message 5 of 11 , May 3, 2006
              Hi Sarah, John, Howard and All,

              Yes I can vaguely recall looking into this issue. My understanding is
              as John pointed out, that in some instances the "'one practicing for
              the realization of stream entry fruition' must refer to a person who
              has not yet attained sotapattimagga citta."

              Steve

              Ps. Yes I'm here and have been reading and enjoying the posts, but
              have been a little busy to participate. Also looking forward to
              another Dhamma discussion gathering at Cooran this weekend.


              > Metta,
              >
              > Sarah
              > p.s I'll requote the relevant part of the sutta for people to
              understand
              > the context of Jon's comments. There were several other detailed
              similar
              > passages we looked at too. I vaguely recall Steve being involved in
              the
              > discussions. Was that right Steve? Are you there??
            • sarah abbott
              Hi Steve, Howard & all Cooranites, ... .... Sar: Yes, that s my understanding too. I think we looked at several other suttas and had long discussions, but I
              Message 6 of 11 , May 4, 2006
                Hi Steve, Howard & all Cooranites,

                --- seisen_au <seisen_@...> wrote:

                > Hi Sarah, John, Howard and All,
                >
                > Yes I can vaguely recall looking into this issue. My understanding is
                > as John pointed out, that in some instances the "'one practicing for
                > the realization of stream entry fruition' must refer to a person who
                > has not yet attained sotapattimagga citta."
                ....
                Sar: Yes, that's my understanding too. I think we looked at several other
                suttas and had long discussions, but I wasn't able to find them in a quick
                search. If you come across or recall other references, I'd be glad if
                you'd add more.

                Howard, I know you were just reporting and not wishing to discuss this
                further. I appreciate why you see it as some kind of contortion, but I
                think the support for phala cittas immediately following magga cittas is
                very strong. I think there was reference to it in one of the recent Vism
                threads, maybe under anantara paccaya...(following in succession).
                ....
                St.> Ps. Yes I'm here and have been reading and enjoying the posts, but
                > have been a little busy to participate. Also looking forward to
                > another Dhamma discussion gathering at Cooran this weekend.
                ....
                Sar: I'm glad to know you're following along!! I hope your studies are
                going well (and you still have time for some surfing at Surfer's
                Paradise...:-)).

                Thanks for telling us about your weekend - Having been, it's easy to
                imagine you all sitting around discussing dhamma at leisure, eating cakes,
                listening to birds and pulling out the texts.

                I hope you all have a good weekend and look forward to hearing about your
                agreements, disagreements, thorny and not-so-thorny topics. As Jon said to
                Tep, when it comes to reading the texts, we can't expect to agree all the
                time:-)).

                Any special theme this time? Is it an 8-precept weekend this year?

                Metta,

                Sarah
                ======
              • nina van gorkom
                Hi Sarah and Cooranites, Perhaps Sarah or Ken H could save a report for me? I can never catch up after two weeks with all the posts. Now I can just add a text
                Message 7 of 11 , May 4, 2006
                  Hi Sarah and Cooranites,
                  Perhaps Sarah or Ken H could save a report for me? I can never catch up
                  after two weeks with all the posts.

                  Now I can just add a text on fruition, but if people have doubts about this
                  subject it may not solve the question. It tells us more on the subject of
                  fruition.
                  Someone who has reached fruition of the sotaapanna, for example, has to
                  continue developing understanding so as to reach higher stages. He has to
                  become steadied (thiti) in his fruition.
                  Pi.taka Disclosure (from which Connie likes to quote), 544. This is about
                  someone who has developed samatha and vipassanaa (coupled together,
                  yuganaddha):
                  'Being steadied (thiti) in the fruit of Strean-Entry, when he further keeps
                  quiet and insight in being, and when they occur coupled together, then with
                  the abandoning of the greater part of lust for sensual desires and of ill
                  will, the noble hearer <becomes a Once-Returner, who having, for the purpose
                  of attaining extinction, returned only once to this world, makes an end of
                  suffering> (cf. pug. 16). This is the plane of attenuation, and it is the
                  fruit of Once-Return. '

                  N:It seems to me that the text speaks here about the person who has had
                  fruition, but it does not separate magga-citta and phalacitta. No need to
                  separate them, since phalacittas are akalika, without delay.

                  *****
                  Nina.
                  op 04-05-2006 09:00 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...:

                  > Any special theme this time? Is it an 8-precept weekend this year?
                • matheesha
                  Hi Howard, H: 2) I learned that I am well suited to standing meditation. It seems to ... M: Could you explain a bit more? ... M: About the whole magga
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 4, 2006
                    Hi Howard,

                    H: 2) I learned that I am well suited to standing meditation.
                    It seems to
                    > have several advantages for me.

                    M: Could you explain a bit more?


                    > H: 3) Bhante said several things that I found of interest....

                    M: About the whole magga citta phala citta controversy- yugandda
                    says - samatha and vipassana is developed - then the path is born. I
                    believe this is a special state where one is inevitably lead to phala
                    but not immediately. Another sutta (vaguely from my readings, which i
                    havent yet seen on the internet) says after seeing the knowledge of
                    arising and passing away, nibbida/revulsion is born. After this the
                    path is born (then vimukti/release). Then the sutta you quoted also
                    suggests that the path and fruit dont happen at the same time.

                    I think that the framework elements of panna (tilakkana,DO, 4NTs) are
                    understood to varying degrees, and further practice is to develop
                    these to greater and greater degrees.

                    metta

                    Matheesha
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.