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Re: Three Suttas about Atta ... Understandings

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  • indriyabala
    Dear Sarah (and all)- Now it s time to give a full reply to your exceptional post that deserves a special treatment. ... synonymous, but all sakkaya-ditthi are
    Message 1 of 63 , Apr 1, 2006
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      Dear Sarah (and all)-

      Now it's time to give a full reply to your exceptional post that
      deserves a special treatment.

      >S: Comments:
      >1. I don't believe the terms atta-ditthi and sakkaaya-ditthi are
      synonymous, but all sakkaya-ditthi are included in atta-ditthi.

      >2. There are obsessions (vipallaasa) which do not include any wrong
      views or self-views. Even the anagami still has the perversion of
      sukkha for dukkha and the anagami, still the perversion of subha for
      asubha without any wrong views or sakkaaya-ditthi.

      Tep:
      1. I am not so sure either if 'atta-ditthi' is broader than
      'sakkaaya-ditthi', but Nyanatiloka Dictionary states that they are the
      same.

      "Numerous speculative opinions and theories, which at all times have
      influenced and still are influencing mankind, are quoted in the
      sutta-texts. Amongst them, however, the wrong view which everywhere,
      and at all times, has most misled and deluded mankind is the
      personality-belief, the ego-illusion. This personality-belief
      (sakkaaya-ditthi), or ego-illusion (atta-ditthi), is of 2 kinds:
      eternity-belief and annihilation-belief. [endquote]

      T: Please also study the following excerpt from the famous Ledi
      Sayadaw's book : 'A Concise Description of the Advantages Arising Out
      of the Realisation of Anatta' by The Venerable Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw

      " If one can clearly perceive the characteristic of anatta, one
      attains the stage of the knowledge of sotapatti magga (path of the
      streamwinner) wherein atta-ditthi (ego delusion) or sakkaya-ditthi
      (personality belief) is totally eradicated.

      " Atta-ditthi is the head--the chief--of the old akusala kammas that
      thus accompany beings incessantly. As long as sakkaya-ditthi exists,
      these old akusala kammas are fiery and full of strength. [endquote]

      2. Does the term 'vipallaasa' mean obsession? I do not think so. Let's
      find out more information.

      According to Thanissaro Bhikkhu, 'anusaya' means obsession or
      underlying tendency["Monks, there are these seven obsessions. Which seven?
      (1) The obsession of sensual passion. (2) The obsession of resistance.
      (3) The obsession of views. (4) The obsession of uncertainty.
      (5) The obsession of conceit. (6) The obsession of passion for
      becoming. (7) The obsession of ignorance.];
      'vipallaasa' means perversion.['Constant' with regard to the
      inconstant is a perversion of perception, a perversion of mind, a
      perversion of view. 'Pleasant' with regard to the stressful... 'Self'
      with regard to not-self... 'Attractive' with regard to the
      unattractive is a perversion of perception, a perversion of mind, a
      perversion of view.]
      ..................
      >S: I recall that anuseti/anusayati, meaning `lies dormant' is from
      the same root as anusaya, meaning latent tendency. So here the sutta
      is not about the vipallaasas or about wrong views as such, but about
      the 7 anusayas towards various objects.

      Tep: Yes. It is about anasayas.
      .................

      >S: I believe that this sutta [SN XXIII.2 Satta Sutta: A Being ] is
      referring to all kinds of clinging (i.e not just wrong view clinging)
      which need to be seen, understood and eradicated in order for there to
      be an end of becoming.

      Tep: You made a valid point! Many suttas are similar to this sutta in
      the sense that they look simple, yet there are implications that the
      careful reader must consider. The "end of becoming" is addressed in
      the second half of the sutta :

      "In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish
      form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving
      for form.

      "You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, ... perception, ...
      fabrications, ...consciousness, and make it unfit for play. Practice
      for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of
      craving, Radha, is Unbinding."
      .................

      >S: There can be clinging with wrong view as you suggest, but also
      with conceit or just clinging without either. As I said (and as you
      know) there is still plenty of clinging to one's aggregates for a
      sotapanna when self view has been eradicated.

      Here, it is stressed that by understanding dhammas, the khandhas, as
      arising and passing away directly, all kinds of clinging/attachment
      are (eventually) eradicated. It's so useless to cling to any reality,
      any dhamma which falls away as soon as it has arisen. This is why
      understanding of realities leads to detachment.

      A being is a conventional term we use for the combination of the
      aggregates. When there is no more obsession, no more attachment, as
      you indicate, no more becoming.

      Tep: True, plenty of (finer) clinging remains after the three fetters
      are eradicated. True, when all 4 kinds of clinging(upadana) end, then
      there are no obsessions(7 anusayas). But, would you be kind enough to
      elaborate a bit on the following :

      Sarah: "Here, it is stressed that by understanding dhammas, the
      khandhas, as arising and passing away directly, all kinds of
      clinging/attachment are (eventually) eradicated."

      In particular, it would be very helpful if you can be clear about
      which kinds of understanding you are talking about, and how they are
      developed by the sotapanna and, also, by the arahant?


      Warm regards,


      Tep
      =========

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott
      <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Tep,
      >
      > Thank you for addressing this post to me...I was going to write back
      > sooner and just say `great quotes', but then I decided to delve a little
      > more into them and as usual got side-tracked:)
      >
      >(snipped)
      >
      > Thankyou for helping me to consider these sutta extracts further
      with you.
      > I look forward to any more of your reflections on these or other suttas.
      > Please point out any errors in my logic as you see them.
      >
      > Metta,
      >
      > Sarah
      > =========
      >
    • Herman Hofman
      Hi KenO, Thanks for your posts. ... Whenever is good for you, is good for me. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman
      Message 63 of 63 , Jun 16, 2006
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        Hi KenO,

        Thanks for your posts.

        >
        > k: I remember I read about past kamma etc. I will get back to you
        > on this issue, I need sometime to it up about the vipaka theories.
        > Maybe a few weeks or months....... :-) but will get back to you
        >

        Whenever is good for you, is good for me.


        Thanks and Kind Regards


        Herman
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