Re: Three Suttas about Atta ... Understandings
- Dear Sarah (and all)-
Now it's time to give a full reply to your exceptional post that
deserves a special treatment.
>S: Comments:synonymous, but all sakkaya-ditthi are included in atta-ditthi.
>1. I don't believe the terms atta-ditthi and sakkaaya-ditthi are
>2. There are obsessions (vipallaasa) which do not include any wrongviews or self-views. Even the anagami still has the perversion of
sukkha for dukkha and the anagami, still the perversion of subha for
asubha without any wrong views or sakkaaya-ditthi.
1. I am not so sure either if 'atta-ditthi' is broader than
'sakkaaya-ditthi', but Nyanatiloka Dictionary states that they are the
"Numerous speculative opinions and theories, which at all times have
influenced and still are influencing mankind, are quoted in the
sutta-texts. Amongst them, however, the wrong view which everywhere,
and at all times, has most misled and deluded mankind is the
personality-belief, the ego-illusion. This personality-belief
(sakkaaya-ditthi), or ego-illusion (atta-ditthi), is of 2 kinds:
eternity-belief and annihilation-belief. [endquote]
T: Please also study the following excerpt from the famous Ledi
Sayadaw's book : 'A Concise Description of the Advantages Arising Out
of the Realisation of Anatta' by The Venerable Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw
" If one can clearly perceive the characteristic of anatta, one
attains the stage of the knowledge of sotapatti magga (path of the
streamwinner) wherein atta-ditthi (ego delusion) or sakkaya-ditthi
(personality belief) is totally eradicated.
" Atta-ditthi is the head--the chief--of the old akusala kammas that
thus accompany beings incessantly. As long as sakkaya-ditthi exists,
these old akusala kammas are fiery and full of strength. [endquote]
2. Does the term 'vipallaasa' mean obsession? I do not think so. Let's
find out more information.
According to Thanissaro Bhikkhu, 'anusaya' means obsession or
underlying tendency["Monks, there are these seven obsessions. Which seven?
(1) The obsession of sensual passion. (2) The obsession of resistance.
(3) The obsession of views. (4) The obsession of uncertainty.
(5) The obsession of conceit. (6) The obsession of passion for
becoming. (7) The obsession of ignorance.];
'vipallaasa' means perversion.['Constant' with regard to the
inconstant is a perversion of perception, a perversion of mind, a
perversion of view. 'Pleasant' with regard to the stressful... 'Self'
with regard to not-self... 'Attractive' with regard to the
unattractive is a perversion of perception, a perversion of mind, a
perversion of view.]
>S: I recall that anuseti/anusayati, meaning `lies dormant' is fromthe same root as anusaya, meaning latent tendency. So here the sutta
is not about the vipallaasas or about wrong views as such, but about
the 7 anusayas towards various objects.
Tep: Yes. It is about anasayas.
>S: I believe that this sutta [SN XXIII.2 Satta Sutta: A Being ] isreferring to all kinds of clinging (i.e not just wrong view clinging)
which need to be seen, understood and eradicated in order for there to
be an end of becoming.
Tep: You made a valid point! Many suttas are similar to this sutta in
the sense that they look simple, yet there are implications that the
careful reader must consider. The "end of becoming" is addressed in
the second half of the sutta :
"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish
form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, ... perception, ...
fabrications, ...consciousness, and make it unfit for play. Practice
for the ending of craving for consciousness for the ending of
craving, Radha, is Unbinding."
>S: There can be clinging with wrong view as you suggest, but alsowith conceit or just clinging without either. As I said (and as you
know) there is still plenty of clinging to one's aggregates for a
sotapanna when self view has been eradicated.
Here, it is stressed that by understanding dhammas, the khandhas, as
arising and passing away directly, all kinds of clinging/attachment
are (eventually) eradicated. It's so useless to cling to any reality,
any dhamma which falls away as soon as it has arisen. This is why
understanding of realities leads to detachment.
A being is a conventional term we use for the combination of the
aggregates. When there is no more obsession, no more attachment, as
you indicate, no more becoming.
Tep: True, plenty of (finer) clinging remains after the three fetters
are eradicated. True, when all 4 kinds of clinging(upadana) end, then
there are no obsessions(7 anusayas). But, would you be kind enough to
elaborate a bit on the following :
Sarah: "Here, it is stressed that by understanding dhammas, the
khandhas, as arising and passing away directly, all kinds of
clinging/attachment are (eventually) eradicated."
In particular, it would be very helpful if you can be clear about
which kinds of understanding you are talking about, and how they are
developed by the sotapanna and, also, by the arahant?
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, sarah abbott
> Hi Tep,
> Thank you for addressing this post to me...I was going to write back
> sooner and just say `great quotes', but then I decided to delve a little
> more into them and as usual got side-tracked:)
> Thankyou for helping me to consider these sutta extracts further
> I look forward to any more of your reflections on these or other suttas.
> Please point out any errors in my logic as you see them.
- Hi KenO,
Thanks for your posts.
>Whenever is good for you, is good for me.
> k: I remember I read about past kamma etc. I will get back to you
> on this issue, I need sometime to it up about the vipaka theories.
> Maybe a few weeks or months....... :-) but will get back to you
Thanks and Kind Regards