Re:what is sati.
- Dear Nina -
You said the right thing :
>Nina:frustrations, if we do not try to convince the other party. I remember
>Our discussions can become more fruitful and more relaxed, without
that you wanted to convince me and tried in many posts, as you
mentioned yourself, and then gave up.
Tep: It is absolutely correct that frustrations would arise when one
had tried hard but failed to convince "the other party". Yes. More
fruitful and relaxed discussions can be expected from letting go.
Thanks to DSG, you and Sarah in particular, for giving me the
opportunity to test myself and learn to be humble.
>N: As paññaa grows, there will be more detachment, as shown by theKundaliya Sutta, but also from the beginning a degree of detachment is
Tep: Perhaps the best thing one can do "at the beginning", when his
mindfulness is weak, is to keep on reminding himself about the danger
of clinging through tanha and ditthi. That reminder -- a recollection
-- is helpful for cultivating sati.
I see your point about the need to understand the "basic" sati, during
the restraining of the six sense faculties. It is the mindfulness of a
person who is training in virtues(siila) and cultivating generosity
through daana, as you rightly said "A person cannot be generous when
sati does not arise. He cannot refrain from harsh speech when sati
does not arise."
>Nina:a little more understanding of its characteristic: it is a dhamma
>When sati arises it is aware of sound and at that moment there can be
appearing through earsense. It can be understood as dhamma, a
conditioned reality. It is not the voice of a person or the sound of
wind, or a dog's barking, it can be known as just sound. In this way
we can learn the difference between paramattha dhamma and conventional
truth of person, wind, dog.
Tep: Or, in other words, "noting with bare attention"?
BTW I know very well how a dog's barking can cause dosa and lost of
mindfulness in one who doesn't practice letting go with the bare
attention that "it is just a sound". Last night my neighbor's dog
barked loudly and continuously, very close to my bedroom, when I was
trying to get some sleep. Yet, I was not disturbed and fell asleep a
few minutes later.
>Nina:next moment, and this conditions a degree of detachment. What appears
>Mindfulness of one object can occur without being able to predict the
is conditioned, it has happened already, be it sati or forgetfulness,
it has happened already. Nobody is master of this or that dhamma that
Understanding this leads to detachment, even if it is slight.
Tep: Thanks, Nina. That reminds me of a favorite sutta in which our
Greatest Teacher, the Buddha, taught a monk (Malunkyaputta) how to
restrain the six sensing media by letting go. <"What do you think,
Malunkyaputta: the forms cognizable via the eye that are unseen by you
that you have never before seen, that you don't see, and that are
not to be seen by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love
there?" ... The sounds cognizable via the ear...The aromas cognizable
via the nose... The flavors cognizable via the tongue... The tactile
sensations cognizable via the body... The ideas(dhamma) cognizable via
the intellect(mano) that are uncognized by you that you have never
before cognized, that you don't cognize, and that are not to be
cognized by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love there?">
This sensing media restraint with letting-go is very effective for
completely withdrawing one's attention ("detaching") from a sensed
object through any of the six doors. I think the same outcome can be
expected from this sensing media restraining exercise or from what you
suggested ( What appears is conditioned, it has happened already ...).
Thank you very much for the Dhamma discussion on mindfulness.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, nina van gorkom
> Hi Tep (and James in passing),
> Mindfulness of one object can occur without being able to predictthe next moment, and this conditions a degree of detachment. What
> conditioned, it has happened already, be it sati or forgetfulness,it has happened already. Nobody is master of this or that dhamma that
> Understanding this leads to detachment, even if it is slight.
- Hi James,
Another late response.... (not intended as an 'ambush':-))
--- buddhatrue <buddhatrue@...> wrote:
> James: Thanks for the reply to this post. I thought it had died a....
> quiet death. ;-))
S: And that was a month ago ;-))
> James: I did some research and I agree with you because of this....
> teaching that I found:
> "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of
> themselves with reference to the seven factors for Awakening. And
> how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves
> with reference to the seven factors for Awakening? There is the case
> where, there being mindfulness as a factor for Awakening present
> within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor for Awakening is
> present within me.' Or, there being no mindfulness as a factor for
> Awakening present within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor
> for Awakening is not present within me.' He discerns how there is
> the arising of unarisen mindfulness as a factor for Awakening. And
> he discerns how there is the culmination of the development of
> mindfulness as a factor for Awakening once it has arisen "
> This clearly points to the fact that sati can be the object of
> sati. I stand corrected- thanks for pointing out my error. :-)
S: This was good research on your part and a graceful comment.
> > S: And yet it is only when the wrong idea of self is eradicated....
> that other
> > kinds of wrong view are also eradicated and the release from
> samsara is
> > assured. I agree with you that craving (and ignorance) are what
> leads to
> > the cycle, but it is particularly craving with wrong view.
> James: Here I don't agree with you. You seem to be rewriting
> dependent origination to put an emphasis on the 'wrong idea of self'
> which the Buddha didn't teach. You would have to show me some
> evidence that when the Buddha taught craving of the Four Noble
> Truths, he particularly meant craving with the wrong view of self.
> This is what the Buddha taught:
> "And this, monks is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha:
> the craving that makes for further becoming accompanied by passion
> & delight, relishing now here & now there i.e., craving for
> sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming."
> Here I don't see evidence of "particularly craving with wrong view"
> I see equal credit being put to craving for sensual pleasure and
> craving for becoming/non-becoming. Frankly, I believe the Buddha
> places the emphasis on craving for "passion and delight, relishing
> now here and now there" "craving for sensual pleasure". Sarah, your
> emphasis seems to be in the wrong direction.
S: Remember that the grossest kinds of craving are eradicated first,
starting with wrong view. For the sotapanna who has eradicated all wrong
view, inc. wrong view of self, the end of samsara is just a matter of
timing and a max of 7 lifetimes away as you know.
In the Brahmajala Sutta (the first sutta recited at the First Council),
DN1, all the various wrong views are enumerated and we can read elsewhere
that these all depend on self-view. At the end of this sutta, the Buddha
stresses the net we're trapped in while we hold these views. They are the
leash that tie us to samsara.
This is why, I believe the path factors start with right view - the view
that clearly understands what is right and what is wrong, what is Truth
and what is not.
However, I think you've made valid points about all craving as being the
cause of Dukkha and I agree with you that all aspects need to be stressed.