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Re:what is sati.

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  • indriyabala
    Dear Nina - ... frustrations, if we do not try to convince the other party. I remember that you wanted to convince me and tried in many posts, as you mentioned
    Message 1 of 139 , Apr 1, 2006
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      Dear Nina -

      You said the right thing :

      >Nina:
      >Our discussions can become more fruitful and more relaxed, without
      frustrations, if we do not try to convince the other party. I remember
      that you wanted to convince me and tried in many posts, as you
      mentioned yourself, and then gave up.

      Tep: It is absolutely correct that frustrations would arise when one
      had tried hard but failed to convince "the other party". Yes. More
      fruitful and relaxed discussions can be expected from letting go.
      Thanks to DSG, you and Sarah in particular, for giving me the
      opportunity to test myself and learn to be humble.
      .........

      >N: As paññaa grows, there will be more detachment, as shown by the
      Kundaliya Sutta, but also from the beginning a degree of detachment is
      indispensable.

      Tep: Perhaps the best thing one can do "at the beginning", when his
      mindfulness is weak, is to keep on reminding himself about the danger
      of clinging through tanha and ditthi. That reminder -- a recollection
      -- is helpful for cultivating sati.

      I see your point about the need to understand the "basic" sati, during
      the restraining of the six sense faculties. It is the mindfulness of a
      person who is training in virtues(siila) and cultivating generosity
      through daana, as you rightly said "A person cannot be generous when
      sati does not arise. He cannot refrain from harsh speech when sati
      does not arise."
      ......................

      >Nina:
      >When sati arises it is aware of sound and at that moment there can be
      a little more understanding of its characteristic: it is a dhamma
      appearing through earsense. It can be understood as dhamma, a
      conditioned reality. It is not the voice of a person or the sound of
      wind, or a dog's barking, it can be known as just sound. In this way
      we can learn the difference between paramattha dhamma and conventional
      truth of person, wind, dog.

      Tep: Or, in other words, "noting with bare attention"?
      BTW I know very well how a dog's barking can cause dosa and lost of
      mindfulness in one who doesn't practice letting go with the bare
      attention that "it is just a sound". Last night my neighbor's dog
      barked loudly and continuously, very close to my bedroom, when I was
      trying to get some sleep. Yet, I was not disturbed and fell asleep a
      few minutes later.
      ...............

      >Nina:
      >Mindfulness of one object can occur without being able to predict the
      next moment, and this conditions a degree of detachment. What appears
      is conditioned, it has happened already, be it sati or forgetfulness,
      it has happened already. Nobody is master of this or that dhamma that
      appears.
      Understanding this leads to detachment, even if it is slight.

      Tep: Thanks, Nina. That reminds me of a favorite sutta in which our
      Greatest Teacher, the Buddha, taught a monk (Malunkyaputta) how to
      restrain the six sensing media by letting go. <"What do you think,
      Malunkyaputta: the forms cognizable via the eye that are unseen by you
      — that you have never before seen, that you don't see, and that are
      not to be seen by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love
      there?" ... The sounds cognizable via the ear...The aromas cognizable
      via the nose... The flavors cognizable via the tongue... The tactile
      sensations cognizable via the body... The ideas(dhamma) cognizable via
      the intellect(mano) that are uncognized by you — that you have never
      before cognized, that you don't cognize, and that are not to be
      cognized by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love there?">

      This sensing media restraint with letting-go is very effective for
      completely withdrawing one's attention ("detaching") from a sensed
      object through any of the six doors. I think the same outcome can be
      expected from this sensing media restraining exercise or from what you
      suggested ( What appears is conditioned, it has happened already ...).

      Thank you very much for the Dhamma discussion on mindfulness.


      Respectfully,


      Tep

      =======


      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom
      <vangorko@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Tep (and James in passing),
      >
      (snipped)
      > Mindfulness of one object can occur without being able to predict
      the next moment, and this conditions a degree of detachment. What
      appears is
      > conditioned, it has happened already, be it sati or forgetfulness,
      it has happened already. Nobody is master of this or that dhamma that
      appears.
      > Understanding this leads to detachment, even if it is slight.
      > Nina.
      >
    • sarah abbott
      Hi James, Another late response.... (not intended as an ambush :-)) ... .... S: And that was a month ago ;-)) ... .... S: This was good research on your part
      Message 139 of 139 , May 17, 2006
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        Hi James,

        Another late response.... (not intended as an 'ambush':-))

        --- buddhatrue <buddhatrue@...> wrote:
        > James: Thanks for the reply to this post. I thought it had died a
        > quiet death. ;-))
        ....
        S: And that was a month ago ;-))
        ...
        > James: I did some research and I agree with you because of this
        > teaching that I found:
        >
        > "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of
        > themselves with reference to the seven factors for Awakening. And
        > how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves
        > with reference to the seven factors for Awakening? There is the case
        > where, there being mindfulness as a factor for Awakening present
        > within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor for Awakening is
        > present within me.' Or, there being no mindfulness as a factor for
        > Awakening present within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor
        > for Awakening is not present within me.' He discerns how there is
        > the arising of unarisen mindfulness as a factor for Awakening. And
        > he discerns how there is the culmination of the development of
        > mindfulness as a factor for Awakening once it has arisen…"
        >
        > This clearly points to the fact that sati can be the object of
        > sati. I stand corrected- thanks for pointing out my error. :-)
        ....
        S: This was good research on your part and a graceful comment.
        ....
        <...>
        > > S: And yet it is only when the wrong idea of self is eradicated
        > that other
        > > kinds of wrong view are also eradicated and the release from
        > samsara is
        > > assured. I agree with you that craving (and ignorance) are what
        > leads to
        > > the cycle, but it is particularly craving with wrong view.
        >
        > James: Here I don't agree with you. You seem to be rewriting
        > dependent origination to put an emphasis on the 'wrong idea of self'
        > which the Buddha didn't teach. You would have to show me some
        > evidence that when the Buddha taught craving of the Four Noble
        > Truths, he particularly meant craving with the wrong view of self.
        > This is what the Buddha taught:
        >
        > "And this, monks is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha:
        > the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion
        > & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for
        > sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming."
        >
        > Here I don't see evidence of "particularly craving with wrong view"
        > I see equal credit being put to craving for sensual pleasure and
        > craving for becoming/non-becoming. Frankly, I believe the Buddha
        > places the emphasis on craving for "passion and delight, relishing
        > now here and now there" "craving for sensual pleasure". Sarah, your
        > emphasis seems to be in the wrong direction.
        ....
        S: Remember that the grossest kinds of craving are eradicated first,
        starting with wrong view. For the sotapanna who has eradicated all wrong
        view, inc. wrong view of self, the end of samsara is just a matter of
        timing and a max of 7 lifetimes away as you know.

        In the Brahmajala Sutta (the first sutta recited at the First Council),
        DN1, all the various wrong views are enumerated and we can read elsewhere
        that these all depend on self-view. At the end of this sutta, the Buddha
        stresses the net we're trapped in while we hold these views. They are the
        leash that tie us to samsara.

        This is why, I believe the path factors start with right view - the view
        that clearly understands what is right and what is wrong, what is Truth
        and what is not.

        However, I think you've made valid points about all craving as being the
        cause of Dukkha and I agree with you that all aspects need to be stressed.

        Metta,

        Sarah
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