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Re: [dsg] Re:jokes and hogwash.

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  • nina van gorkom
    Hi James, acknowledging your post. ... N: Yes they can, but not by a self. Understanding controls them. Understanding, a mental factor arising with
    Message 1 of 139 , Mar 31, 2006
      Hi James,
      acknowledging your post.
      op 31-03-2006 16:18 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...:
      >
      > I am in agreement with you that the development of sati depends on
      > conditions. My disagreement is when you state that these conditions
      > for sati cannot be controlled and/or purposefully cultivated.
      ------
      N: Yes they can, but not by a self. Understanding controls them.
      Understanding, a mental factor arising with consciousness, knows the right
      purpose.

      Acknowledging your other post:
      LOL! I hope you are joking. (But you wrote before that you don't
      approve of joking??). I just hope that those weren't the messages you
      got from my posts!

      Metta,
      James
      ps. Yeah, there is one post missing- where I accuse you of being a
      Mahayanist Heretic! ;-)) lol
      ------
      N: I considered a while before posting a joke, but I thought this a means of
      conveying to you: I understand your colourful style, and your vehemence at
      times, calling me a wolf in sheepscloths, which is from the Bible. I am used
      to your strong expressions (like triumvirate in the past!). You know
      beforehand what I am going to say, and I know the same of you, that is all
      right. I have no unhappy feelings about this. You speak very sincerely from
      your own conviction.
      Mahayanist Heretic: I see this as a compliment. This was about the fact that
      all of us are to develop the perfections. I do not want to use labels as
      Theravada and Mahayana.
      My influence is not as great as you would think: not true that my book is in
      every hotel in Thailand. We did not see it in the Oriental Hotel.
      Nina.
    • sarah abbott
      Hi James, Another late response.... (not intended as an ambush :-)) ... .... S: And that was a month ago ;-)) ... .... S: This was good research on your part
      Message 139 of 139 , May 17, 2006
        Hi James,

        Another late response.... (not intended as an 'ambush':-))

        --- buddhatrue <buddhatrue@...> wrote:
        > James: Thanks for the reply to this post. I thought it had died a
        > quiet death. ;-))
        ....
        S: And that was a month ago ;-))
        ...
        > James: I did some research and I agree with you because of this
        > teaching that I found:
        >
        > "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of
        > themselves with reference to the seven factors for Awakening. And
        > how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves
        > with reference to the seven factors for Awakening? There is the case
        > where, there being mindfulness as a factor for Awakening present
        > within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor for Awakening is
        > present within me.' Or, there being no mindfulness as a factor for
        > Awakening present within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor
        > for Awakening is not present within me.' He discerns how there is
        > the arising of unarisen mindfulness as a factor for Awakening. And
        > he discerns how there is the culmination of the development of
        > mindfulness as a factor for Awakening once it has arisen…"
        >
        > This clearly points to the fact that sati can be the object of
        > sati. I stand corrected- thanks for pointing out my error. :-)
        ....
        S: This was good research on your part and a graceful comment.
        ....
        <...>
        > > S: And yet it is only when the wrong idea of self is eradicated
        > that other
        > > kinds of wrong view are also eradicated and the release from
        > samsara is
        > > assured. I agree with you that craving (and ignorance) are what
        > leads to
        > > the cycle, but it is particularly craving with wrong view.
        >
        > James: Here I don't agree with you. You seem to be rewriting
        > dependent origination to put an emphasis on the 'wrong idea of self'
        > which the Buddha didn't teach. You would have to show me some
        > evidence that when the Buddha taught craving of the Four Noble
        > Truths, he particularly meant craving with the wrong view of self.
        > This is what the Buddha taught:
        >
        > "And this, monks is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha:
        > the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion
        > & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for
        > sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming."
        >
        > Here I don't see evidence of "particularly craving with wrong view"
        > I see equal credit being put to craving for sensual pleasure and
        > craving for becoming/non-becoming. Frankly, I believe the Buddha
        > places the emphasis on craving for "passion and delight, relishing
        > now here and now there" "craving for sensual pleasure". Sarah, your
        > emphasis seems to be in the wrong direction.
        ....
        S: Remember that the grossest kinds of craving are eradicated first,
        starting with wrong view. For the sotapanna who has eradicated all wrong
        view, inc. wrong view of self, the end of samsara is just a matter of
        timing and a max of 7 lifetimes away as you know.

        In the Brahmajala Sutta (the first sutta recited at the First Council),
        DN1, all the various wrong views are enumerated and we can read elsewhere
        that these all depend on self-view. At the end of this sutta, the Buddha
        stresses the net we're trapped in while we hold these views. They are the
        leash that tie us to samsara.

        This is why, I believe the path factors start with right view - the view
        that clearly understands what is right and what is wrong, what is Truth
        and what is not.

        However, I think you've made valid points about all craving as being the
        cause of Dukkha and I agree with you that all aspects need to be stressed.

        Metta,

        Sarah
        =======
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