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Re: [dsg] Re:sati and focussing

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Hi Matheesha, ... N: No, not all the different paccayas. you say: Intellectual understanding can see
    Message 1 of 73 , Jan 1, 2006
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      Hi Matheesha,
      op 01-01-2006 02:07 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...:

      > N: Seeing the arising and falling away of dhammas
      >> is the first principal insight and several have to follow before
      > the three
      >> lakkhana are seen very clearly. It is a development.
      >
      > M: What im trying to get at is how deeply do we need to experience?
      > We do not need to see the different types of paccaya for example.
      > Seeing that everything arises from conditions is enough.
      ------
      N: No, not all the different paccayas.
      you say:<Seeing that everything arises from conditions is enough. >
      Intellectual understanding can see this. But the second stage of tender
      insight is direct understanding of dhammas as conditioned without thinking.
      This cannot be reached without having first directly realized the
      distinction between nama and rupa.
      Thus, I know that the second stage is not thinking or a knowing in general.
      How it is? When time comes. I cannot tell now.
      ------
      > M: Sorry, I meant accepting that everything is impermanant based on
      > Faith (saddanusarin) might be easy, but unsure. How much
      > perseverence do they need? They will become sotapanna at the point
      > of death, like sarakani the alcoholic monk!
      ------
      N: Based on saddha is here realization of the truth. Saddha was here
      dominating. Not necessarily at death.
      >> ------
      > N: All the enlightenment factors develop together,
      >
      > M: Nina, I think the factors of enlightenment develop even when
      > becoming a sotapanna and not just an arahanth. Is that what you are
      > saying. This is something im unsure of.
      --------
      N: When becoming sotapanna and after that they develop more, until
      arahatship.
      I mean: they do not develop one by one. They are connected.
      ---------
      > N: > The accomplishment of charity: because if one is selfish and
      > stingy, how can
      >> one give up the clinging to the view of self. It is all connected.
      >
      > M: We need to be careful here. Self view dissappears at the
      > sotapanna stage...
      -----
      N: Agreed, but all perfections, daana included, are needed to attain
      enlightenment. They support paññaa.
      -------

      >> --------
      > N: > In another post you were speaking about kamma that can be an
      > obstruction to
      >> attaining enlightenment.
      > M: Yes. But there is a danger in those without much viriya and
      > little self confidence, such thoughts of how much good kamma one
      > has, might become a deterrant to going on the path. Better to try
      > rather than not.
      -----
      N: If one is a dvihetuka, paññaa can still be developed in that life. This
      is to be encouraged.
      -------
      > M: You mentioned the importance of sila. I dont think panna
      > necessarily means sila. There maybe wise people who are
      > uncontrolled. I dont think panna alone will produce sila. sometimes
      > those with a lot of sadda and little panna have better sila than the
      > other way around.
      -------
      N: Without paññaa siila cannot be fully developed. The Visuddhimagga
      includes all the stages of insight in siila. The tripartite division of this
      work is for teaching purposes. The three are connected and overlapping.
      Kusala siila is kusala through action and speech, but it can also be through
      the mind-door. Think of the purity of siila that is indriya samvara siila,
      guarding of the sense-doors. One may be about to say an unkind word, but one
      abstains.
      -------
      > M: I'm doing a little project these days. If you know of any suttas
      > which show stages/progressions like sila, samadhi,panna on the
      > path, please let me know.
      ------
      N: I studied this topic, mentioned in the Parinibbanasutta and Commentary.
      Here the allusion is to the full accomplishment of siila through lokuttara
      magga-citta of the sotaapanna. We have to look at the context whether
      lokuttara citta is referred to or not. I can quote if you like.
      Nina.
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Hi Matheesha, ... N: No, not all the different paccayas. you say: Intellectual understanding can see
      Message 73 of 73 , Jan 1, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Matheesha,
        op 01-01-2006 02:07 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...:

        > N: Seeing the arising and falling away of dhammas
        >> is the first principal insight and several have to follow before
        > the three
        >> lakkhana are seen very clearly. It is a development.
        >
        > M: What im trying to get at is how deeply do we need to experience?
        > We do not need to see the different types of paccaya for example.
        > Seeing that everything arises from conditions is enough.
        ------
        N: No, not all the different paccayas.
        you say:<Seeing that everything arises from conditions is enough. >
        Intellectual understanding can see this. But the second stage of tender
        insight is direct understanding of dhammas as conditioned without thinking.
        This cannot be reached without having first directly realized the
        distinction between nama and rupa.
        Thus, I know that the second stage is not thinking or a knowing in general.
        How it is? When time comes. I cannot tell now.
        ------
        > M: Sorry, I meant accepting that everything is impermanant based on
        > Faith (saddanusarin) might be easy, but unsure. How much
        > perseverence do they need? They will become sotapanna at the point
        > of death, like sarakani the alcoholic monk!
        ------
        N: Based on saddha is here realization of the truth. Saddha was here
        dominating. Not necessarily at death.
        >> ------
        > N: All the enlightenment factors develop together,
        >
        > M: Nina, I think the factors of enlightenment develop even when
        > becoming a sotapanna and not just an arahanth. Is that what you are
        > saying. This is something im unsure of.
        --------
        N: When becoming sotapanna and after that they develop more, until
        arahatship.
        I mean: they do not develop one by one. They are connected.
        ---------
        > N: > The accomplishment of charity: because if one is selfish and
        > stingy, how can
        >> one give up the clinging to the view of self. It is all connected.
        >
        > M: We need to be careful here. Self view dissappears at the
        > sotapanna stage...
        -----
        N: Agreed, but all perfections, daana included, are needed to attain
        enlightenment. They support paññaa.
        -------

        >> --------
        > N: > In another post you were speaking about kamma that can be an
        > obstruction to
        >> attaining enlightenment.
        > M: Yes. But there is a danger in those without much viriya and
        > little self confidence, such thoughts of how much good kamma one
        > has, might become a deterrant to going on the path. Better to try
        > rather than not.
        -----
        N: If one is a dvihetuka, paññaa can still be developed in that life. This
        is to be encouraged.
        -------
        > M: You mentioned the importance of sila. I dont think panna
        > necessarily means sila. There maybe wise people who are
        > uncontrolled. I dont think panna alone will produce sila. sometimes
        > those with a lot of sadda and little panna have better sila than the
        > other way around.
        -------
        N: Without paññaa siila cannot be fully developed. The Visuddhimagga
        includes all the stages of insight in siila. The tripartite division of this
        work is for teaching purposes. The three are connected and overlapping.
        Kusala siila is kusala through action and speech, but it can also be through
        the mind-door. Think of the purity of siila that is indriya samvara siila,
        guarding of the sense-doors. One may be about to say an unkind word, but one
        abstains.
        -------
        > M: I'm doing a little project these days. If you know of any suttas
        > which show stages/progressions like sila, samadhi,panna on the
        > path, please let me know.
        ------
        N: I studied this topic, mentioned in the Parinibbanasutta and Commentary.
        Here the allusion is to the full accomplishment of siila through lokuttara
        magga-citta of the sotaapanna. We have to look at the context whether
        lokuttara citta is referred to or not. I can quote if you like.
        Nina.
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