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Re: Heart problem

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  • abrennan@yahoo.com
    In the book I mentioned the premise is that the phyisical organ, the heart, would appear to think, to motivate us and to communicate with OUR head snd other
    Message 1 of 29 , May 31 3:15 PM
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      In the book I mentioned the premise is that the phyisical organ, the
      heart, would appear to think, to motivate us and to communicate with
      OUR head snd other hearts.

      In the book they talke about electromagnetic experiments where
      someone enters a room without the subject in the room knowing but the
      subjects heart responds the way it does when people knowingly meet.
      The book claims that the eloctromagnetic pulese between people seem
      to occur in such a way as to intimate that they are pulsing back and
      forth to each other. The author goes so far as to say that our hearts
      are sending messages out to the world. It's abit lke the way dolphins
      and wales communicate but instead of sound it is electromagnetic
      pulses. Ther eis a lot of study abut the chemico-electric activity in
      the brain and how that can be shown to be related to our behaviour
      and thinking, the book gived evidence to support the claim that there
      is MORE electromagnetic phenomena occuring in the heart than in the
      brain.

      I remember the Native American quote that after having dealt with
      white people for some time one cheif said something like We know
      these people are crazy because they think that we are living in our
      heads, when we KNOW we are living in our heart.

      INteresting anyway

      antony brennan


      --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick
      <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
      > Dear Gayan, Num and Antony,
      > Thanks for the comments (great to hear from you as always
      > Gayan)and extra info. I had another question about the heart:
      > Robert,
      > >
      > > Is it to be taken literally that the "heart" referred to here
      > is the
      > > physical organ that is being spoken about? Could it not be
      > that "heart" is
      > > referring to "emotions", which are mental formations, so that
      > citta
      > includes
      > > both mind and emotion?
      > >
      > _______________________________
      > Good question. The hadaya-vatthu is rupa (physical phenomena)
      > and so
      > is entirely different from citta which is mental phenomena- this
      > in
      > the realms where there are five aggregates (khandas)(ie. our
      > world).
      > In the Tipitaka they don't actually specify this matter as
      > hadaya
      > (heart) but simply say "yam rupam " (that material thing). They
      > specify it in the commenatries where extra details are often
      > given.
      >
      > It is useful to know that although mano-vinnana (synonyms for
      > citta)
      > have hadaya-vatthu as the base in five aggregate worlds (our
      > world)
      > this type of matter is not an indriya (controlling faculty),
      > whereas
      > cakkhu-pasada, sota pasada etc.(the sensitive matter of the eye,
      > ear,
      > nose tongue body etc)are all indriya.
      > The reason that the heart matter is not indriya is that mano is
      > not
      > contolled by it in the sense that the relative strength or
      > weakness
      > of the heart matter does not influence mano (citta, vinnana).
      > This is
      > contrasted with say cakkhu pasada where if the sensitive matter
      > in the
      > eye is of weak quality then seeing will be diminished (and the
      > same
      > for the other senses). Thus we see that the heart base must be
      > even more
      > subtle than the extremely refined matter that is the eye base.
      > robert
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      > --- srnsk@a... wrote:
      > > Hi Robert,
      > >
      > > Your mail caught my attention, so I did open Visuddhimagga,
      > > PTS 1971 by Pe
      > > Maung Tin, and read only part of chapter VIII, Mindfulness as
      > > to the Body.
      > > The intention of mindfulness of the body is clearly said at
      > > the beginning,
      > > ...
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
      > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
    • Robert Kirkpatrick
      ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year!
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 6, 2001
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        --- Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@...> wrote:
        > Robert, your original comments are placed between lines of
        > "***" for
        > clarity.
        >
        > ************************************************************
        > The visuddhimagga (viii, 111)says about hadaya-vatthu (heart
        > basis):
        > they describe the heart and then note that inside the heart
        > "there is hollow the size of a punnaga seeds bed where half a
        > pastata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support
        > the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur."
        > Note that it is not the heart itself that is the hadaya-vatthu
        > NOR is it the blood inside the heart but rather as the
        > Paramatthamanjusa (see vis.xiii note 5 ) says "the heart basis
        > occurs with this blood as its support".
        > ************************************************************
        > Ranjith:
        > I have read this part of the Visuddimagga written in Sinhala.
        > Sinhala
        > version used the word "patha" in place of "pastata". In
        > Sinhala,
        > the 'patha'
        > is a measure for liquid which accounts for about 100 mili
        > liters. Therefore,
        > half a 'patha' could be about 50 ml. My belief is the human
        > heart contains
        > much more quantity of blood in it at any given time. If we
        > want
        > to take it
        > as it is probably, we can assume that the 'Vinnana' can
        > resides
        > in the
        > hadaya-vatthu' as long as there is half a patha of blood in
        > there.
        >
        > ************************************************************
        > You see the actual hadaya-vatthu is incredibly sublime - in
        > scientific measure it wouldn't even amount to a tiny fraction
        > of
        > a gram. It might even be so refined as to be unmeasuarable by
        > scientific instruments.
        > ************************************************************
        >
        >
        >
        > In this statement what do you refer to by the word of
        > hadaya-vatthu?
        >
        >
        >
        > ************************************************************
        >
        > Dear Ranjith,
        > What is essential to realise is that hadaya-vatthu (heart
        > base)
        > is not the heart nor is it the blood in the heart that we can
        > see. It is a special type of rupa that is conditioned only by
        > kamma and it arises in association with some of the blood in
        > the
        > heart. In the space of a flash of lightning more than a
        > billion
        > moments of hadaya-vatthu have arisen and fallen away. If we
        > think of heart in conventional terms (and mistake this for
        > hadaya-vatthu) we are lost in the world of concept- and will
        > not
        > understand the deep meaning in the Visuddhimagga.
        > ______________________________________________________________
        >
        > However, I still can not understand what answers I have for
        > following
        > questions.
        >
        > If the seat of the Vinnana is the hadaya-vatthu;
        >
        > 1. What would happen to the Vinnana during the time of an open
        > heart surgery
        > where the heart is inactive for the function of pumping blood?
        >
        > 2. Does the Vinnana get changed from one heart tissue to
        > another
        > in case of
        > the heart transplant?
        >
        > 3. Where does Vinnana reside during the period of tissue
        > transition (several
        > hours)?
        >
        > 4. In case of using an artificial heart, we can assume that
        > engineers do not
        > make any provision for the tiny heart hole' as they are not
        > aware of the
        > requirement. But we know the person who carry the 'heart pump'
        > live
        > normally. In this case what happens to the Vinnana?
        > _______________________________________________
        >
        > None of this can be surprising if we understand hadaya-vatthu.
        > That special kammic matter will arise wherever there is the
        > suitable conditions, including blood (or even a blood
        > substitute). Although now, for us, it arises inside the body
        > inside the heart, it can certainly arise in a pump, or
        > anywhere
        > suitable. Vinnana lasts even a shorter time than the heart
        > base
        > so there is no question of it going anywhere . Actually Melvin
        > made an error recently when he said the vinnana passes over to
        > the next life. Vinnana has no time to go anywhere- it can't
        > change from tissue to anywhere. It arises, performs its
        > function
        > (depending on the type of vinnana) and immediatley falls away.
        > But it conditions the next vinnana to arise. It is this
        > continuity that deceives us into believing that things can
        > last.
        > Even if we think something lasts only for a split second we
        > are
        > still caught up in vipallasa of permanence. It is all much
        > more
        > ephemeral than that and so only vipassana that insights (not
        > us)
        > can understand the difference between nama and rupa and so
        > overcome doubt on these matters.
        >
        > ____________________
        > Robert:This applies also to the other sense organs (pasada
        > rupa). The
        > Atthasalini remarks that the very purpose of using the term
        > pasada is to dismiss the popular misconception of what we
        > think
        > an eye or an ear is. (see karunadasa p45)The actual sensitive
        > matter in the eye and ear is very refined. If someone dies
        > then
        > the ear-sense and eye sense (sotapasada and cakkhu-pasada )
        > are
        > immediately no longer produced (they are produced by kamma
        > only)
        > yet one would not notice much outward change looking at the
        > eye
        > and ear(at least for the first few minutes before
        > decomposition
        > sets in). The same applies to the heart - the blood in the
        > heart
        > would have the same volume after death and yet the
        > hadaya-vatthu
        > is no longer present.
        >
        > ************************************************************
        >
        >
        > Ranjith:Yes, the 'pasada-rupa' is not the organ itself. But I
        > think it is the name
        > given to the ability of the 'rupa' (organ) to receive an
        > 'arammana' in a
        > specific form and translate that into another form of 'rupa'
        > to
        > send the
        > message to 'Vinnana'(consciousness) which is constantly
        > monitoring the 'six
        > sens doors' for inputs. I have shown this process clearly in
        > the
        > diagram I
        > have posted sometimes ago.
        > ________________
        >
        > Robert: I'm not sure what you mean. The pasada rupa doesn't
        > translate into anything. It arises and performs its function
        > which is to be the base and meeting point for cakkhu-vinnana
        > to
        > arise and contact the rupa which is visible object. It is so
        > anatta- so uncontrollable. the pasada is conditioned, the
        > cakkhu
        > vinnana is conditioned by different conditions, the rupa which
        > is visible object (vanayatana or rupayatana) is conditioned by
        > different conditions again. All of them so ephemeral and yet
        > they all arise and meet. That is all life is- through
        > different
        > doors.
        > Because of deep ignorance we imagine that we can control this
        > process. Seeing into this process is understanding
        > paticcasamupada. It is so deep and yet sadly these days we
        > have
        > people who can think about anatta or have unusual experiences
        > while meditating and believe this means they have had insight.
        > Very hard to help.
        > _________________
        > Ranjith:When a person die, all pasada rupas 'appear' to die
        > immediately. But they
        > don't. What dies is the Mind so that it can no longer monitor
        > the sense
        > doors and receive arammanas. This happens immediately after
        > the
        > death. That
        > is the reason for me to use the words "permanent separation of
        > the Mind from
        > the Matter" to describe the death. However, the ability of
        > some
        > of those
        > sense organs to function normally remain intact for sometime.
        > That is how
        > the surgeons use the Eye tissue of a dead person to transplant
        > into another
        > person, giving the vision to the second one. Removal of the
        > eye
        > tissue can
        > take place even an hour after the death. I am aware of a
        > situations where a
        > medical team has recovered eyes of a dead man few hours after
        > his death as
        > the man died at home and relatives did not call the nearest
        > Eye
        > Bank for
        > hours.
        >
        > _________________
        > This is mixing conventional thinking with Dhamma and so
        > confusions occur.
        > You write "When a person die, all pasada rupas 'appear' to die
        > immediately. But they
        > don't. What dies is the Mind so that it can no longer monitor
        > the sense
        > doors and receive arammanas. This happens immediately after
        > the
        > death."
        > No. Immediately after cuticitta (death consciousness) arises
        > (not even a split second delay)there are no more of any of the
        > sense bases. They are all produced by kamma and already
        > patisandicitta has arisen in a new existence - maybe in
        > another
        > world and another plane far from here.
        > But the eyes, ears and so forth - these organs where the
        > pasada
        > arises still exist, are still visible, because they are not
        > conditioned solely by kamma. And certainly they can act as a
        > support for new pasada rupa -conditioned by anothers kamma.
        > That
        > is why transplants can work. If this is still not clear please
        > ask more as these subtle points where conventional ideas and
        > the
        > sublime Dhamma intersect can show us much about the clinging
        > that there is to concept and story. I'll leave the rest of
        > your
        > post for now.
        >
        > robert
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
        > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
        >


        __________________________________________________
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      • rjkjp1
        Dear Htoo, I edited this old post to make it easier to read for you. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirkpatrick ... Robert: You see the
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 14, 2004
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          Dear Htoo,
          I edited this old post to make it easier to read for you.
          In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com,
          Robert Kirkpatrick <> >
          > > The visuddhimagga (viii, 111)says about hadaya-vatthu (heart
          > > basis):
          > > they describe the heart and then note that inside the heart
          > > "there is hollow the size of a punnaga seeds bed where half a
          > > pastata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support
          > > the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur."
          > > Note that it is not the heart itself that is the hadaya-vatthu
          > > NOR is it the blood inside the heart but rather as the
          > > Paramatthamanjusa (see vis.xiii note 5 ) says "the heart basis
          > > occurs with this blood as its support".
          > > ************************************************************
          > > Ranjith:
          > > I have read this part of the Visuddimagga written in Sinhala.
          > > Sinhala
          > > version used the word "patha" in place of "pastata". In
          > > Sinhala,
          > > the 'patha'
          > > is a measure for liquid which accounts for about 100 mili
          > > liters. Therefore,
          > > half a 'patha' could be about 50 ml. My belief is the human
          > > heart contains
          > > much more quantity of blood in it at any given time. If we
          > > want
          > > to take it
          > > as it is probably, we can assume that the 'Vinnana' can
          > > resides
          > > in the
          > > hadaya-vatthu' as long as there is half a patha of blood in
          > > there.
          > >
          > > ************************************************************
          Robert:
          You see the actual hadaya-vatthu is incredibly sublime - in
          scientific measure it wouldn't even amount to a tiny fraction
          of
          a gram. It might even be so refined as to be unmeasuarable by
          > > scientific instruments.
          > > ************************************************************
          > >
          Ranjith:
          > > In this statement what do you refer to by the word of
          > > hadaya-vatthu?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ************************************************************
          Dear Ranjith,
          What is essential to realise is that hadaya-vatthu (heart
          base)
          is not the heart nor is it the blood in the heart that we can
          see. It is a special type of rupa that is conditioned only by
          kamma and it arises in association with some of the blood in
          the
          heart. In the space of a flash of lightning more than a
          billion
          moments of hadaya-vatthu have arisen and fallen away. If we
          think of heart in conventional terms (and mistake this for
          hadaya-vatthu) we are lost in the world of concept- and will
          not
          understand the deep meaning in the Visuddhimagga.
          _____________________________________________________________
          > >
          Ranjith: However, I still can not understand what answers I have for
          > > following
          > > questions.
          > >
          > > If the seat of the Vinnana is the hadaya-vatthu;
          > >
          > > 1. What would happen to the Vinnana during the time of an open
          > > heart surgery
          > > where the heart is inactive for the function of pumping blood?
          > >
          > > 2. Does the Vinnana get changed from one heart tissue to
          > > another
          > > in case of
          > > the heart transplant?
          > >
          > > 3. Where does Vinnana reside during the period of tissue
          > > transition (several
          > > hours)?
          > >
          > > 4. In case of using an artificial heart, we can assume that
          > > engineers do not
          > > make any provision for the tiny heart hole' as they are not
          > > aware of the
          > > requirement. But we know the person who carry the 'heart pump'
          > > live
          > > normally. In this case what happens to the Vinnana?
          > > _______________________________________________

          Robert:None of this can be surprising if we understand hadaya-vatthu.
          That special kammic matter will arise wherever there is the
          suitable conditions, including blood (or even a blood
          substitute). Although now, for us, it arises inside the body
          inside the heart, it can certainly arise in a pump, or
          anywhere
          suitable. Vinnana lasts even a shorter time than the heartbase
          so there is no question of it going anywhere . Vinnana has no time
          to go anywhere- it can't
          change from tissue to anywhere. It arises, performs its
          function
          (depending on the type of vinnana) and immediatley falls away.
          But it conditions the next vinnana to arise. It is this
          continuity that deceives us into believing that things can
          last.
          Even if we think something lasts only for a split second we
          are
          still caught up in vipallasa of permanence. It is all much
          more
          ephemeral than that and so only vipassana that insights (not us)
          can understand the difference between nama and rupa and so
          overcome doubt on these matters.
          This applies also to the other sense organs (pasada
          rupa). The
          Atthasalini remarks that the very purpose of using the term
          pasada is to dismiss the popular misconception of what we
          think
          an eye or an ear is. (see karunadasa p45)The actual sensitive
          matter in the eye and ear is very refined. If someone dies
          then
          the ear-sense and eye sense (sotapasada and cakkhu-pasada )
          are
          immediately no longer produced (they are produced by kamma
          only)
          yet one would not notice much outward change looking at the
          eye
          and ear(at least for the first few minutes before
          decomposition
          sets in). The same applies to the heart - the blood in the
          heart
          would have the same volume after death and yet the
          hadaya-vatthu
          is no longer present.

          > > ************************************************************


          > > Ranjith:Yes, the 'pasada-rupa' is not the organ itself. But I
          > > think it is the name
          > > given to the ability of the 'rupa' (organ) to receive an
          > > 'arammana' in a
          > > specific form and translate that into another form of 'rupa'
          > > to
          > > send the
          > > message to 'Vinnana'(consciousness) which is constantly
          > > monitoring the 'six
          > > sens doors' for inputs. I have shown this process clearly in
          > > the
          > > diagram I
          > > have posted sometimes ago.
          > > ________________

          Robert: The pasada rupa doesn't
          translate into anything. It arises and performs its function
          which is to be the base and meeting point for cakkhu-vinnana
          to
          arise and contact the rupa which is visible object. It is so
          anatta- so uncontrollable. the pasada is conditioned, the
          cakkhu
          vinnana is conditioned by different conditions, the rupa which
          is visible object (vanayatana or rupayatana) is conditioned by
          different conditions again. All of them so ephemeral and yet
          they all arise and meet. That is all life is- through
          different
          doors.
          Because of deep ignorance we imagine that we can control this
          process. Seeing into this process is understanding
          paticcasamupada. It is so deep and yet sadly these days we
          have
          people who can think about anatta or have unusual experiences
          while meditating and believe this means they have had insight.
          Very hard to help.
          ________________
          > > Ranjith:When a person die, all pasada rupas 'appear' to die
          > > immediately. But they
          > > don't. What dies is the Mind so that it can no longer monitor
          > > the sense
          > > doors and receive arammanas. This happens immediately after
          > > the
          > > death. That
          > > is the reason for me to use the words "permanent separation of
          > > the Mind from
          > > the Matter" to describe the death. However, the ability of
          > > some
          > > of those
          > > sense organs to function normally remain intact for sometime.
          > > That is how
          > > the surgeons use the Eye tissue of a dead person to transplant
          > > into another
          > > person, giving the vision to the second one. Removal of the
          > > eye
          > > tissue can
          > > take place even an hour after the death. I am aware of a
          > > situations where a
          > > medical team has recovered eyes of a dead man few hours after
          > > his death as
          > > the man died at home and relatives did not call the nearest
          > > Eye
          > > Bank for
          > > hours.
          > >
          > > _________________
          Robert: This is mixing conventional thinking with Dhamma and so
          confusions occur.
          You write "When a person die, all pasada rupas 'appear' to die
          immediately. But they
          don't. What dies is the Mind so that it can no longer monitor
          the sense
          doors and receive arammanas. This happens immediately after
          the
          death."

          No. Immediately after cuticitta (death consciousness) arises
          (not even a split second delay)there are no more of any of the
          sense bases. They are all produced by kamma and already
          patisandicitta has arisen in a new existence - maybe in
          another
          world and another plane far from here.
          But the eyes, ears and so forth - these organs where the
          pasada
          arises still exist, are still visible, because they are not
          conditioned solely by kamma. And certainly they can act as a
          support for new pasada rupa -conditioned by anothers kamma.
          That
          is why transplants can work. If this is still not clear please
          ask more as these subtle points where conventional ideas and
          the
          sublime Dhamma intersect can show us much about the clinging
          that there is to concept and story.

          >robert
        • htootintnaing
          Dear Robert K, Thank you very much for your effort and I am happy with heart base. But here a question arises. Do Pasada Rupa solely caused by Kamma or are
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 15, 2004
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            Dear Robert K,

            Thank you very much for your effort and I am happy with heart base.
            But here a question arises.

            Do Pasada Rupa solely caused by Kamma or are also caused by others?

            With much respect,

            Htoo Naing
            --------------------------------------------------------------------
            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@y...> wrote:
            > Dear Htoo,

            > But the eyes, ears and so forth - these organs where the
            > pasada
            > arises still exist, are still visible, because they are not
            > conditioned solely by kamma. And certainly they can act as a
            > support for new pasada rupa -conditioned by anothers kamma.
            > That
            > is why transplants can work. If this is still not clear please
            > ask more as these subtle points where conventional ideas and
            > the
            > sublime Dhamma intersect can show us much about the clinging
            > that there is to concept and story.
            >
            > >robert
          • nina van gorkom
            Dear Rob K, I enjoyed your posts, glad you reposted it, I have no time for going to webs or following links, appreciating, Nina.
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 15, 2004
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              Dear Rob K,
              I enjoyed your posts, glad you reposted it, I have no time for going to webs
              or following links,
              appreciating,
              Nina.
              op 15-01-2004 06:53 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@...:

              > Robert:None of this can be surprising if we understand hadaya-vatthu.
              > That special kammic matter will arise wherever there is the
              > suitable conditions, including blood (or even a blood
              > substitute).
            • rjkjp1
              Dear Htoo, Sorry for the delay in replying. All pasada rupas are kammasamutthana, produced by kamma. Not by citta or utu or ahara. However there are always
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 19, 2004
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                Dear Htoo,
                Sorry for the delay in replying.
                All pasada rupas are kammasamutthana, produced by kamma. Not by
                citta or utu or ahara. However there are always other conditions
                that affect the main condition in various ways.
                robertK
                In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing"
                <htootintnaing@y...> wrote:
                > Dear Robert K,
                >
                > Thank you very much for your effort and I am happy with heart
                base.
                > But here a question arises.
                >
                > Do Pasada Rupa solely caused by Kamma or are also caused by others?
                >
                > With much respect,
                >
                > Htoo Naing
                > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                -
                > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@y...>
                wrote:
                > > Dear Htoo,
                >
                > > But the eyes, ears and so forth - these organs where the
                > > pasada
                > > arises still exist, are still visible, because they are not
                > > conditioned solely by kamma. And certainly they can act as a
                > > support for new pasada rupa -conditioned by anothers kamma.
                > > That
                > > is why transplants can work. If this is still not clear please
                > > ask more as these subtle points where conventional ideas and
                > > the
                > > sublime Dhamma intersect can show us much about the clinging
                > > that there is to concept and story.
                > >
                > > >robert
              • buddhatrue
                Hi Robert K. and Nina, ... others? ... - ... I am finding this discussion of Heartbase rather dull and lifeless. I am interested in some various areas of
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 19, 2004
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                  Hi Robert K. and Nina,

                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@y...> wrote:
                  > Dear Htoo,
                  > Sorry for the delay in replying.
                  > All pasada rupas are kammasamutthana, produced by kamma. Not by
                  > citta or utu or ahara. However there are always other conditions
                  > that affect the main condition in various ways.
                  > robertK
                  > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing"
                  > <htootintnaing@y...> wrote:
                  > > Dear Robert K,
                  > >
                  > > Thank you very much for your effort and I am happy with heart
                  > base.
                  > > But here a question arises.
                  > >
                  > > Do Pasada Rupa solely caused by Kamma or are also caused by
                  others?
                  > >
                  > > With much respect,
                  > >
                  > > Htoo Naing
                  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -
                  > -
                  > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > > Dear Htoo,
                  > >
                  > > > But the eyes, ears and so forth - these organs where the
                  > > > pasada
                  > > > arises still exist, are still visible, because they are not
                  > > > conditioned solely by kamma. And certainly they can act as a
                  > > > support for new pasada rupa -conditioned by anothers kamma.
                  > > > That
                  > > > is why transplants can work. If this is still not clear please
                  > > > ask more as these subtle points where conventional ideas and
                  > > > the
                  > > > sublime Dhamma intersect can show us much about the clinging
                  > > > that there is to concept and story.
                  > > >
                  > > > >robert

                  I am finding this discussion of Heartbase rather dull and lifeless.
                  I am interested in some various areas of Heartbase, and perhaps these
                  are not Abhidhamma related:

                  1.In what way is Heartbase related to metta and compassion?
                  2.Can the supporting factors of Heartbase be transferred from one
                  person to another? (As in `Metta Meditation'?)
                  3.How is Heartbase a supporting factor for wisdom?
                  4.Can Heartbase be strengthened by various types of music? (Since it
                  isn't citta dependent).
                  5.What are some ways to strengthen Heartbase so as to more naturally
                  practice renunciation?

                  I hope these aren't too many questions and let me know if I am
                  barking up the wrong tree here. I would like some practical
                  applications of the rupa of Heartbase.

                  Metta, James
                • rjkjp1
                  ... lifeless. ... these ... it ... naturally ... Dear James Glad to see your recent interest in the details of Abhidhamma. All the other sense bases- the
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 20, 2004
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                    --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue"
                    <buddhatrue@y...> wrote:
                    > Hi Robert K. and Nina,
                    >> I am finding this discussion of Heartbase rather dull and
                    lifeless.
                    > I am interested in some various areas of Heartbase, and perhaps
                    these
                    > are not Abhidhamma related:
                    >
                    > 1.In what way is Heartbase related to metta and compassion?
                    > 2.Can the supporting factors of Heartbase be transferred from one
                    > person to another? (As in `Metta Meditation'?)
                    > 3.How is Heartbase a supporting factor for wisdom?
                    > 4.Can Heartbase be strengthened by various types of music? (Since
                    it
                    > isn't citta dependent).
                    > 5.What are some ways to strengthen Heartbase so as to more
                    naturally
                    > practice renunciation?
                    >
                    > I hope these aren't too many questions and let me know if I am
                    > barking up the wrong tree here. I would like some practical
                    > applications of the rupa of Heartbase.
                    --------------
                    Dear James
                    Glad to see your recent interest in the details of Abhidhamma.
                    All the other sense bases- the eyebase, earbase , tongue base,
                    bodybase, nose base are said to have a dominating(indriya) effect on
                    the consciousness that arises at each base. So if the eyebase is in
                    poor condition - then the eyeconsciousness (cakkhuvinnana) that
                    arises there will likewise be weak (manda).
                    This doesn't apply to the heart base- it is not indriya- and
                    perhaps this is of interest. Perhaps we have the idea that when we
                    are sickly that sati can't arise like when we are in full health -
                    To me knowing how heartbase is not an indriya I take it that the
                    state of the body cannot (necessarily) hinder sati.
                    With regard to metta it is again irrelevant about the state of the
                    rupa. It is simply a place where most mental processes occur.
                    I think good music gives pleasure - pleasant feeling . And even
                    pleasant feeling associated with lobha can be healthy. The one
                    associated with alobha is even better.
                    There is no way to transfer any part of the heartbase to another
                    because it is produced by ones own kamma. But when we have goodwill
                    to another this at least is giving the gift of freedom from fear. it
                    is worthwhile.
                    Robk
                  • buddhatrue
                    Hi Rob K, Thank you for taking the time and the effort to answer my questions, I appreciate it. Rob: Glad to see your recent interest in the details of
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 20, 2004
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                      Hi Rob K,

                      Thank you for taking the time and the effort to answer my questions,
                      I appreciate it.

                      Rob: Glad to see your recent interest in the details of Abhidhamma.

                      James: I'm glad that you're glad. ;-) But, don't get too excited and
                      throw a celebration party just yet! ;-) I am simply trying to better
                      understand the beliefs of my good friends here and being open minded
                      about such.

                      Rob: All the other sense bases- the eyebase, earbase , tongue base,
                      bodybase, nose base are said to have a dominating(indriya) effect on
                      the consciousness that arises at each base. So if the eyebase is in
                      poor condition - then the eyeconsciousness (cakkhuvinnana) that
                      arises there will likewise be weak (manda).

                      James: Okay, no offense, but this sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo
                      to me. Call it conditioning by my educational background or whatever
                      but I think that you are taking the idea of the sense bases far too
                      literally. A consciousness that arises in my eye? Are you serious?
                      I could just imagine if I went to an ophthalmologist and he told
                      me, "I am afraid that your eyebase is in poor condition and therefore
                      the eyeconsciousness is weak. This eyeconsciousness is only
                      partially entering your mind door." I would think that maybe
                      his `mind door' was locked and someone had thrown away the key! ;-))
                      Don't you think these are rather outdated, pre-scientific theories of
                      sense cognition? These ideas do not match up with any of the known
                      facts of the modern, scientific world. But, most importantly, what
                      does any of this have to do with dukkha and the elimination of
                      dukkha? These are quaint ideas but I think it is important to keep
                      going back to this question constantly.

                      Rob: This doesn't apply to the heart base- it is not indriya- and
                      perhaps this is of interest. Perhaps we have the idea that when we
                      are sickly that sati can't arise like when we are in full health -
                      To me knowing how heartbase is not an indriya I take it that the
                      state of the body cannot (necessarily) hinder sati.

                      James: Well, being sick doesn't just affect your heart, it affects
                      all of your senses and your brain. I think that being sick can
                      hinder sati of outside sensory input. However, there can be sati of
                      the effects of the sickness while one is sick. In other words, if
                      you have a runny nose it will be difficult to have sati of smells but
                      it won't be difficult to have sati of the runny nose itself (unless
                      of course you are on some sort of cold medicine that is disrupting
                      your sensory impressions and then the sati can be of that effect,
                      possibly.)

                      Rob: With regard to metta it is again irrelevant about the state of
                      the
                      rupa. It is simply a place where most mental processes occur.

                      James: I don't understand you because you have an unidentified
                      pronoun. Which `it' is simply a place where most mental processes
                      occur? In metta or in rupa? I didn't think that mental processes
                      occur in either one so could you clarify?

                      Rob: I think good music gives pleasure - pleasant feeling . And even
                      pleasant feeling associated with lobha can be healthy. The one
                      associated with alobha is even better.

                      James: You have an unidentified pronoun again. Which `one'
                      associated with alobha is even better? Music, pleasant feeling, or
                      lobha? I can't follow you.

                      Rob: There is no way to transfer any part of the heartbase to another
                      because it is produced by ones own kamma.

                      James: Well, I'm sure there are some heart surgeons who would
                      disagree with this. ;-). I don't think you understanding my
                      question. I am not talking about the physical structure of the
                      heart, I am talking about the `energy' that is present at the
                      heartbase. Can that `energy' be transferred from one person to
                      another (as in `Metta Meditation')?

                      Rob: But when we have goodwill to another this at least is giving the
                      gift of freedom from fear. It is worthwhile.

                      James: I like this phrase! I am not entirely sure what you mean but
                      for some reason it resonates with me. I will leave it at that.

                      Metta, James
                    • christine_forsyth
                      Hello James (and RobK) and all, Have a look at p. 1397 of the Samyutta Nikaya Vol. II, the notes to 35 Salaayatanasamyutta. Note 3 has some info on eye and
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 20, 2004
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                        Hello James (and RobK) and all,

                        Have a look at p. 1397 of the Samyutta Nikaya Vol. II, the notes to
                        35 Salaayatanasamyutta. Note 3 has some info on eye and eye base.
                        See what you think ..

                        metta and peace,
                        Christine
                        ---The trouble is that you think you have time ---

                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue"
                      • buddhatrue
                        Hi Christine, ... Thanks for the reference. What I think is what I thought previously (but I am willing to stand corrected): the Abhidhamma has created a
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 20, 2004
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                          Hi Christine,

                          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth"
                          <cforsyth@v...> wrote:
                          > Hello James (and RobK) and all,
                          >
                          > Have a look at p. 1397 of the Samyutta Nikaya Vol. II, the notes to
                          > 35 Salaayatanasamyutta. Note 3 has some info on eye and eye base.
                          > See what you think ..


                          Thanks for the reference. What I think is what I thought previously
                          (but I am willing to stand corrected): the Abhidhamma has created a
                          classification of the sense bases that is pseudo-scientific and is
                          not supported by the suttas. Eye consciousness does not arise in the
                          physical structure of the eye. In this day and age, it is simply
                          ridiculous to believe such a thing. Take dreaming for example,
                          during dreaming visual consciousness arises and the eyes are closed.
                          Sensory consciousness only arises in the brain, not in the rupa
                          structures of the sense organs. For example, there have been
                          experiments where electrical stimulation of certain areas of the
                          brain will cause people to see, hear, smell, feel, and taste things
                          that aren't actually present in their physical environment. The same
                          thing happens during dreaming.

                          What did you 'see' in this reference? ;-)

                          >
                          > metta and peace,
                          > Christine

                          Metta, James
                        • rjkjp1
                          ... jumbo ... whatever ... serious? ... therefore ... )) ... of ... Dear James, As you indicate part of the reason we react to different ideas is our
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 20, 2004
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                            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue"
                            <buddhatrue@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Rob: All the other sense bases- the eyebase, earbase , tongue base,
                            > bodybase, nose base are said to have a dominating(indriya) effect on
                            > the consciousness that arises at each base. So if the eyebase is in
                            > poor condition - then the eyeconsciousness (cakkhuvinnana) that
                            > arises there will likewise be weak (manda).
                            >
                            > James: Okay, no offense, but this sounds like a bunch of mumbo
                            jumbo
                            > to me. Call it conditioning by my educational background or
                            whatever
                            > but I think that you are taking the idea of the sense bases far too
                            > literally. A consciousness that arises in my eye? Are you
                            serious?
                            > I could just imagine if I went to an ophthalmologist and he told
                            > me, "I am afraid that your eyebase is in poor condition and
                            therefore
                            > the eyeconsciousness is weak. This eyeconsciousness is only
                            > partially entering your mind door." I would think that maybe
                            > his `mind door' was locked and someone had thrown away the key! ;-
                            ))
                            > Don't you think these are rather outdated, pre-scientific theories
                            of
                            > sense cognition? These ideas do not match up with any of the known
                            > facts of the modern, scientific world. But, most importantly, what
                            > does any of this have to do with dukkha and the elimination of
                            > dukkha? These are quaint ideas but I think it is important to keep
                            > going back to this question constantly.
                            > _____

                            Dear James,
                            As you indicate part of the reason we react to different ideas is our
                            background. My background leads me to perceive science as ignorant
                            when it comes to ideas about mind.
                            Maybe the eyeconsciousness is difficult to understand so take
                            bodyconsciouness instead. This type of consciousness can arise
                            wherever there is the subtle pasada rupa that is its support. For
                            example can you feel a sensation where your foot is resting on the
                            floor? If so that consciousness is arising there, not in the head.
                            --------

                            >
                            >
                            > Rob: With regard to metta it is again irrelevant about the state of
                            > the
                            > rupa. It is simply a place where most mental processes occur.
                            >
                            > James: I don't understand you because you have an unidentified
                            > pronoun. Which `it' is simply a place where most mental processes
                            > occur? In metta or in rupa? I didn't think that mental processes
                            > occur in either one so could you clarify?
                            _______

                            "It" refers to rupa in the passage above.


                            >
                            > Rob: I think good music gives pleasure - pleasant feeling . And even
                            > pleasant feeling associated with lobha can be healthy. The one
                            > associated with alobha is even better.
                            >
                            > James: You have an unidentified pronoun again. Which `one'
                            > associated with alobha is even better? Music, pleasant feeling, or
                            > lobha? I can't follow you.

                            _____
                            I meant the pleasant feeling associated with alobha is better than
                            the pleasant feeling associated with lobha.
                            --------
                            >
                            > Rob: There is no way to transfer any part of the heartbase to
                            another
                            > because it is produced by ones own kamma.
                            >
                            > James: Well, I'm sure there are some heart surgeons who would
                            > disagree with this. ;-). I don't think you understanding my
                            > question. I am not talking about the physical structure of the
                            > heart, I am talking about the `energy' that is present at the
                            > heartbase. Can that `energy' be transferred from one person to
                            > another (as in `Metta Meditation')?
                            _______
                            If I feel friendly to someone (have metta) it is almost none of
                            their business. If they dont like me or even if they dont like me
                            feeling friendly to them it cant stop me having metta. Can they feel
                            my metta? Sometimes they may sense it and this might change their
                            atttituded in a favourable way. But I dont think there is any actual
                            transfer of my metta (or heart base).
                            RobK
                          • Kenneth Ong
                            Hi Christine Do you know how I can bribe you ;-) to type out the Note 3. TIA. kind regards Ken O ... (and RobK) and all, ...
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 20, 2004
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                              Hi Christine

                              Do you know how I can bribe you ;-) to type out the Note 3. TIA.


                              kind regards
                              Ken O

                              --- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@...> wrote: > Hello James
                              (and RobK) and all,
                              >
                              > Have a look at p. 1397 of the Samyutta Nikaya Vol. II, the notes to
                              >
                              > 35 Salaayatanasamyutta. Note 3 has some info on eye and eye base.
                              > See what you think ..
                              >
                              > metta and peace,
                              > Christine
                              > ---The trouble is that you think you have time ---


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                            • buddhatrue
                              Hi Rob K, Rob: As you indicate part of the reason we react to different ideas is our background. My background leads me to perceive science as ignorant when it
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 20, 2004
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                                Hi Rob K,

                                Rob: As you indicate part of the reason we react to different ideas
                                is our background. My background leads me to perceive science as
                                ignorant
                                when it comes to ideas about mind.

                                James: Hmmm…what sort of background did you have? Were you raised in
                                a Somalian hut? ;-)) (just kidding). Science isn't perfect but I
                                would say that ideas about the physical operation of the mind and the
                                body are far more advanced today than during the Buddha's time.

                                Rob: Maybe the eyeconsciousness is difficult to understand so take
                                bodyconsciouness instead. This type of consciousness can arise
                                wherever there is the subtle pasada rupa that is its support. For
                                example can you feel a sensation where your foot is resting on the
                                floor? If so that consciousness is arising there, not in the head.

                                James: I'm sorry Rob, but no consciousness arises in the foot. This
                                is an absurd idea. Kinesthetic awareness/intelligence only gives the
                                impression that consciousness arises in the foot. It only seems this
                                way because there is subtle clinging to the body as a whole as
                                being `mine' and occupying space and time. If you practiced insight
                                meditation you would soon see that all consciousnesses arise in the
                                mind. When clinging to the body has ceased as being mine and
                                occupying space, there is no more duality between the mind and the
                                body. This is proven through insight meditation and medical
                                science. For example, for several years after people have a limb
                                removed, like a foot, they will feel sensations coming from that
                                missing limb (like itching, pain, heat, etc.). The consciousness
                                arises in the mind not in the actual limb. The sense organs are
                                just `openings' for the outside stimulus.

                                Rob: If I feel friendly to someone (have metta) it is almost none of
                                their business. If they dont like me or even if they dont like me
                                feeling friendly to them it cant stop me having metta. Can they feel
                                my metta? Sometimes they may sense it and this might change their
                                atttituded in a favourable way. But I dont think there is any actual
                                transfer of my metta (or heart base).

                                James: Okay, this is your opinion. I was wondering if the Abhidhamma
                                spoke to this issue but apparently not.

                                Metta, James
                              • Sarah
                                Hi James, I understand your concerns and confusion. Just butting in and out quickly here. ... .... Just briefly, in sutta translations we often see phrases
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 21, 2004
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                                  Hi James,

                                  I understand your concerns and confusion. Just butting in and out quickly
                                  here.

                                  --- buddhatrue <buddhatrue@...> wrote:

                                  > James: I was wondering if the Abhidhamma
                                  > spoke to this issue but apparently not.
                                  ....
                                  Just briefly, in sutta translations we often see phrases such as: ‘nourish
                                  the heart’, (Nakulapita Sutta, SN22:1,Thanissaro transl)

                                  ‘that’s how you develop the heart’, (Bhaddekeratta Sutta, MN131,
                                  Thanissaro)

                                  ‘devoted to that quietude of heart’, (Samanna Phala sutta, Rhys-Davids)

                                  ‘’freedom from barrenness and bondage of heart’ (Ketokhila Sutta,
                                  Rhys-Davids)

                                  ‘My heart leaped up at neither pleasure nor pain, grew serene.’(Tapussa
                                  Sutta, ?)

                                  ‘would his heart stand fast’ (Lohikka Sutta, ?)

                                  ‘the Order with believing heart can reap’ (Mahaparinibbana sutta. ?)
                                  *****
                                  I just got these few examples quickly from google ‘heart, sutta, form’ -
                                  I haven’t checked all the translators or detail, but you can.

                                  These are all very ‘free’ translations of the Pali which have nothing
                                  whatsoever to do with pasada rupa (heart-base) being discussed. They are
                                  references in fact to citta and accompanying beautiful mental factors.

                                  To take just the first two as an example:

                                  1.‘nourish the heart’, (Nakulapita Sutta)

                                  B.Bodhi gives ‘worthy of esteem’ (describing the Blessed One and the
                                  bhikkhus in the 2nd para).

                                  Note 2: “Manobhaavaniiyaa, used in apposition to bhikkhuu, has often been
                                  misinterpreted by translators to mean ‘developed mind’. However, the
                                  expression is a gerundive meaning literally ‘who should be brought to
                                  mind’, ie, who are worthy of esteem. Spk: ‘Those great elders such as
                                  Sariputta and Moggallana are called ‘worthy of esteem’ (‘to be brought to
                                  mind’) because the mind (citta) grows in wholesome qualities whenever they
                                  are seen.”

                                  2.‘that’s how you develop the heart’, (Bhaddekeratta Sutta)

                                  B. Bodhi gives ‘Invincibly, unshakeably’ (describing the development of
                                  insight into present states)

                                  Note1213 “Asa’mhiira’m asankuppa’m. MA [S: MN comy] explains that this is
                                  said for the purpose of showing inight and repeated insight; for insight
                                  is ‘invincible, unshakeable’ because it is not vanquished or shaken by
                                  lust and other defilements.”
                                  *****
                                  I hasten to add that I’m not commenting here on the rights and wrongs of
                                  translations, but merely trying to point out that our use of ‘heart’ in
                                  common language is very different from the meaning given not only in the
                                  Abhidhamma, but in the suttas as well.

                                  Metta,

                                  Sarah
                                  p.s As far as the Tipitaka is concerned, there is no seeing consciousness
                                  when we are dreaming with eyes closed. Visible object, eye-sense and
                                  eye-contact are essential for seeing.
                                  ==================


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                                • buddhatrue
                                  Hi Sarah, Sarah: I understand your concerns and confusion. Just butting in and out quickly here. James: Oh my goodness Sarah, I don t have `concerns and
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 21, 2004
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                                    Hi Sarah,

                                    Sarah: I understand your concerns and confusion. Just butting in and
                                    out quickly here.

                                    James: Oh my goodness Sarah, I don't have `concerns and confusion'
                                    about this matter! LOL! I was simply asking a question and I have
                                    now gotten the answer I was seeking. The Abhidhamma gives only a
                                    superficial analysis of heart-base. No big deal and I don't plan on
                                    bringing it up again. (No reason to jump in and play my `therapist' ;-
                                    )) over the matter.)

                                    Sarah: These are all very `free' translations of the Pali which have
                                    nothing whatsoever to do with pasada rupa (heart-base) being
                                    discussed. They are references in fact to citta and accompanying
                                    beautiful mental factors.

                                    James: Well, at times the Buddha spoke about mind and at other times
                                    he spoke about heart. Granted, some of the Pali translations may be
                                    loose in this regard but I can usually spot a mistranslation by the
                                    context. I don't think that every reference to the heart is simply
                                    being metaphorical, I think that there is something more there, but I
                                    could be wrong about that. I am being open minded about the subject;
                                    I would suggest that you do the same. ;-))

                                    Sarah: As far as the Tipitaka is concerned, there is no seeing
                                    consciousness when we are dreaming with eyes closed. Visible object,
                                    eye-sense and eye-contact are essential for seeing.

                                    James: First, I don't consider you an expert on the Tipitaka to make
                                    such an absolute statement. If you were a nun, passed your Pali
                                    exams, and had read and studied the entire Tipitaka with others who
                                    have done the same, then I would consider you an expert (heck, you
                                    even disagree with Bhikkhu Bodhi about meditation practice, a true
                                    expert of the Tipitaka if there ever was one.) Second, if it isn't
                                    seeing consciousness being activated while dreaming then what is it?
                                    I can practice lucid dreaming where I can experience visual
                                    consciousness, auditory consciousness, etc. and still have the
                                    consciousness of cognition and mental formations…and know that I am
                                    dreaming. Please, stop reading all of this stuff in all these
                                    commentaries, piecemeal, and look at your own experience to make
                                    determinations. What is written in books isn't the whole picture
                                    when it comes to reality.

                                    Metta, James
                                  • christine_forsyth
                                    Hello Ken O, No bribe needed :-) I ll type it out and post it later this evening - I just have to feed the dog and shift the car from under the tree that all
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 21, 2004
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                                      Hello Ken O,

                                      No bribe needed :-) I'll type it out and post it later this evening -
                                      I just have to feed the dog and shift the car from under the tree
                                      that all the fruit bats have decided to roost in. :-)

                                      cheers,
                                      Chris

                                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong <ashkenn2k@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > Hi Christine
                                      >
                                      > Do you know how I can bribe you ;-) to type out the Note 3. TIA.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > kind regards
                                      > Ken O
                                    • christine_forsyth
                                      Hello Ken O, p. 1397 of the Samyutta Nikaya Vol. II (B.Bodhi), 35 Salaayatanasamyutta - Note 3 as requested. metta and peace, Christine [Spk distinguishes the
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 21, 2004
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                                        Hello Ken O,
                                        p. 1397 of the Samyutta Nikaya Vol. II (B.Bodhi), 35
                                        Salaayatanasamyutta - Note 3 as requested.
                                        metta and peace,
                                        Christine

                                        [Spk distinguishes the different types of "eyes" referred to in the
                                        canon. These are first divided into two general classes: the eye of
                                        knowledge (~naanachakkhu) and the physical eye (mamsacakkhu). The
                                        former is fivefold: (i) the Buddha eye (buddhacakkhu), the knowledge
                                        of the inclinations and underlying tendencies of beings, and the
                                        knowledge of the degree of maturity of their spiritual faculties;
                                        (ii) the Dhamma eye (dhammacakkhu), the knowledge of the three lower
                                        paths and fruits; (iii) the universal eye (samantacakkhu), the
                                        Buddha's knowledge of omniscience; (iv) the divine eye (dibbacakkhu),
                                        the knowledge arisen by suffusion of light (which sees the passing
                                        away and rebirth of beings); and (v) the wisdom eye (pa~n~naacakkhu),
                                        the discernment of the Four Noble Truths. The physical eye is
                                        twofold: (i) the composite eye (sasambhaaracakkhu), the physical
                                        eyeball; and (ii) the sensitive eye (pasaadacakkhu), i.e., the
                                        sensitive substance in the visual apparatus that responds to forms
                                        (perhaps the retina and optic nerve). Here the Blessed One speaks of
                                        the sensitive eye as the 'eye base'. The ear, etc., should be
                                        similarly understood. Mind (mano) is the mind of the three planes,
                                        which is the domain of exploration with insight
                                        (tebhuumakasammasanacaaracitta).
                                        For the commentarial treatment of the sense bases, see Vism 444-46
                                        (Ppn 14:36-53). Hamilton challenges the commentarial classification
                                        of the first five sense bases under the ruuupakkhandha, arguing from
                                        the fact that the standard definition of the form aggregate in the
                                        suttas does not include them. In her view, the sense faculties are
                                        powers of perception partaking of both material and mental
                                        characteristics and thus unclassifiable exclusively under ruupa
                                        (Identity and Experience, pp. 14-22). By the same logic, however, it
                                        might be argued that the five external sense bases should not be
                                        assigned to the ruupakkhandha, for again the suttas do not place them
                                        there. The plain fact is that the correlations between the khandhas,
                                        aayatanas, and dhaatus are not made explicit in the Nikaayas at all,
                                        but only in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, which classifies both the first
                                        five internal and external sense bases under ruupa. The five
                                        faculties and four sense objects (excluding the tactile object) are
                                        categorized as "derivative form" (upaadaa rupa), i.e. form derived
                                        from the four primary elements; the tactile object is classified
                                        under three of the primary elements: earth (hardness or softness),
                                        heat (hotness or coolness), and air (pressure and motion). The
                                        suttas themselves do not enumerate the types of derivative form, and
                                        the Abhidhamma texts seem to be filling in this lacuna.]

                                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong <ashkenn2k@y...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > Hi Christine
                                        >
                                        > Do you know how I can bribe you ;-) to type out the Note 3. TIA.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > kind regards
                                        > Ken O
                                      • rjkjp1
                                        ... the ... This ... the ... this ... insight ... the ... Dear James, According to the texts that first satge of vipassana is seeing that mind (nama) and rupa
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 21, 2004
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                                          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue"
                                          <buddhatrue@y...> wrote:
                                          > Hi Rob K,
                                          >
                                          > Science isn't perfect but I
                                          > would say that ideas about the physical operation of the mind and
                                          the
                                          > body are far more advanced today than during the Buddha's time.
                                          >
                                          > Rob: Maybe the eyeconsciousness is difficult to understand so take
                                          > bodyconsciouness instead. This type of consciousness can arise
                                          > wherever there is the subtle pasada rupa that is its support. For
                                          > example can you feel a sensation where your foot is resting on the
                                          > floor? If so that consciousness is arising there, not in the head.
                                          >
                                          > James: I'm sorry Rob, but no consciousness arises in the foot.
                                          This
                                          > is an absurd idea. Kinesthetic awareness/intelligence only gives
                                          the
                                          > impression that consciousness arises in the foot. It only seems
                                          this
                                          > way because there is subtle clinging to the body as a whole as
                                          > being `mine' and occupying space and time. If you practiced
                                          insight
                                          > meditation you would soon see that all consciousnesses arise in
                                          the
                                          > mind. When clinging to the body has ceased as being mine and
                                          > occupying space, there is no more duality between the mind and the
                                          > body. This is proven through insight meditation and medical
                                          > science. For example, for several years after people have a limb
                                          > removed, like a foot, they will feel sensations coming from that
                                          > missing limb (like itching, pain, heat, etc.). The consciousness
                                          > arises in the mind not in the actual limb. The sense organs are
                                          > just `openings' for the outside stimulus.
                                          >==========
                                          Dear James,
                                          According to the texts that first satge of vipassana is seeing that
                                          mind (nama) and rupa are entirely different: nama-rupaparichedda-
                                          nana.
                                          I wouldn't say consciousness (vinnana, citta) arises in mind because
                                          I thought citta and cetasika were mind, nama.
                                          But if medical science and insight meditation have proved what you
                                          say then who am I to argue.
                                          RobK
                                        • buddhatrue
                                          Hi Rob, Rob: According to the texts that first satge of vipassana is seeing that mind (nama) and rupa are entirely different: nama-rupaparichedda- nana. James:
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 21, 2004
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                                            Hi Rob,

                                            Rob: According to the texts that first satge of vipassana is seeing
                                            that mind (nama) and rupa are entirely different: nama-rupaparichedda-
                                            nana.

                                            James: That is the first stage of vipassana and it is really not
                                            that difficult to achieve (one just has to begin practicing). Also,
                                            I would not say that this insight `is knowing nama and rupa to be
                                            entirely different' (they aren't entirely different and they are
                                            linked), it is simply an analytical knowledge that they are basically
                                            different. It is a very superficial knowledge really that the body
                                            doesn't cognize, it is the mind that cognizes. That the mind is
                                            drawn toward the body but the body isn't drawn toward the mind.
                                            Later insight will see that the body and the mind arise in pairs and
                                            that they cease in pairs…that is when the differences between them
                                            become less and less important. Then this insight is deepened and
                                            deepened through various levels. Then after that the complete
                                            ceasing nature, or Nibbana, becomes apparent about both.

                                            Rob: I wouldn't say consciousness (vinnana, citta) arises in mind
                                            because I thought citta and cetasika were mind, nama.

                                            James: The consciousness that is bound by objects, the clinging
                                            consciousness, arises in the mind. The consciousness that that isn't
                                            bound by objects, unbound consciousness or nibbana, isn't limited to
                                            the mind…and it isn't limited to rupa either. It is `luminous' in
                                            all directions.

                                            Rob: But if medical science and insight meditation have proved what
                                            you say then who am I to argue.

                                            James: You are someone who has valuable input and you may be right.

                                            Metta, James
                                          • Kenneth Ong
                                            Hi James ... to be entirely different (they aren t entirely different and they are linked), it is simply an analytical knowledge that they are ... k: They
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 21, 2004
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                                              Hi James


                                              > James: That is the first stage of vipassana and it is really not
                                              > that difficult to achieve (one just has to begin practicing).
                                              > Also, I would not say that this insight `is knowing nama and rupa
                                              to be entirely different' (they aren't entirely different and they
                                              are linked), it is simply an analytical knowledge that they are
                                              > basically different.

                                              k: They are totally different but inseparable for beings who born in
                                              the sensual planes. Please look that the sutta about clinging and
                                              aggregates to know the distinction.

                                              J: It is a very superficial knowledge really that the body doesn't
                                              cognize, it is the mind that cognizes. That the mind is drawn
                                              toward the body but the body isn't drawn toward the mind.

                                              k: That is true if and only if we are talking about the rupas of the
                                              body. If we are talking about body consciouness. The mind
                                              consciouness will arise after the body consciouness out of tendency
                                              or out of habit. Whether there is consciouness in the sense organ is
                                              definitely an interesting scientific qn. When we talk about
                                              consciousness we are not talking about the brain (bc brain is a mass
                                              of rupas ;-). When we touch a nerve in any part of our body, is it
                                              the brain that reads the nerve transmission or the nerve receive the
                                              transmission, knows it first before it transmit to the mind ;-).

                                              J: Take dreaming for example, during dreaming visual consciousness
                                              arises and the eyes are closed. Sensory consciousness only arises in
                                              the brain, not in the rupa structures of the sense organs. For
                                              example, there have been experiments where electrical stimulation of
                                              certain areas of the brain will cause people to see, hear, smell,
                                              feel, and taste things that aren't actually present in their physical
                                              environment. The same thing happens during dreaming.

                                              J: This is proven through insight meditation and medical
                                              science. For example, for several years after people have a limb
                                              removed, like a foot, they will feel sensations coming from that
                                              missing limb (like itching, pain, heat, etc.). The consciousness
                                              arises in the mind not in the actual limb. The sense organs are
                                              just `openings' for the outside stimulus.

                                              K: Your second paragrah on feeling sensation coming from a missing
                                              limb has answered your dream analogy. These sensations that arise
                                              due to lost limbs sensation is bc out of tendecy or out of habitual
                                              we are feeling it. It is the same as dream. They are our hidden
                                              desires -(Freud is one of the psychologist who brought forward this
                                              idea - not very sure of the spelling), our tendencies. That is why
                                              Arahants do not dream bc they have eradicated all defilements or
                                              tendecies.





                                              best wishes
                                              Ken O




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                                            • buddhatrue
                                              Hi Ken O, Thank you for your reply. I will get to it later, in more detail, when I feel the time is more opportune. Metta, James
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 21, 2004
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                                                Hi Ken O,

                                                Thank you for your reply. I will get to it later, in more detail,
                                                when I feel the time is more opportune.

                                                Metta, James
                                              • upasaka@aol.com
                                                Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/21/04 2:46:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... ============================= Everything that is being discussed here is a matter of
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 21, 2004
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                                                  Hi, Ken -

                                                  In a message dated 1/21/04 2:46:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                                  ashkenn2k@... writes:

                                                  > J: This is proven through insight meditation and medical
                                                  > science. For example, for several years after people have a limb
                                                  > removed, like a foot, they will feel sensations coming from that
                                                  > missing limb (like itching, pain, heat, etc.). The consciousness
                                                  > arises in the mind not in the actual limb. The sense organs are
                                                  > just `openings' for the outside stimulus.
                                                  >
                                                  > K: Your second paragrah on feeling sensation coming from a missing
                                                  > limb has answered your dream analogy. These sensations that arise
                                                  > due to lost limbs sensation is bc out of tendecy or out of habitual
                                                  > we are feeling it. It is the same as dream. They are our hidden
                                                  > desires -(Freud is one of the psychologist who brought forward this
                                                  > idea - not very sure of the spelling), our tendencies. That is why
                                                  > Arahants do not dream bc they have eradicated all defilements or
                                                  > tendecies.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  =============================
                                                  Everything that is being discussed here is a matter of conventional
                                                  truth. Don't you think that, along such lines, the phantom limb phenomenon is
                                                  more a matter of *nerves* and the spinal cord, and the brain, than anything
                                                  analogous to dreaming??

                                                  With metta,
                                                  Howard

                                                  /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                                                  in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                                                  phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Kenneth Ong
                                                  Hi Howard H: Everything that is being discussed here is a matter of ... phantom limb phenomenon is more a matter of *nerves* and the spinal cord, and
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 21, 2004
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                                                    Hi Howard


                                                    H: Everything that is being discussed here is a matter of
                                                    > conventional truth. Don't you think that, along such lines, the
                                                    phantom limb phenomenon is more a matter of *nerves* and the spinal
                                                    cord, and the brain, than anything analogous to dreaming??


                                                    K: To me they are similar cases that are induces by tendecies. Even
                                                    though they are conventional, IMHO there is a need to know the cause
                                                    so to have a clearer understanding of the effect of tendency.
                                                    Tendency is a very impt principle that should not be overlooked.
                                                    Sometimes we are only mindful of the akusala cittas or cetasikas,
                                                    however we tend to forget the underlying tendency behind each
                                                    cetasikas especially the underlying tendency of ignorance is the
                                                    strongest among all.


                                                    best wishes
                                                    Ken O

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