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Re: [dsg] Internal Rupa

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Hi Steve, I just thought of you while doing the Pali of Sangiti Co. As to internal, external, there is one classification in the Vis coming to my mind, quoted
    Message 1 of 4 , Dec 2, 2005
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      Hi Steve,
      I just thought of you while doing the Pali of Sangiti Co.
      As to internal, external, there is one classification in the Vis coming to
      my mind, quoted from the Vis. series:
      we read in Vis. Ch XIV, 73:

      < Herein, the five kinds beginning with the eye are 'internal' because
      they occur as an integral part of the selfhood (in oneself); the rest
      are 'external' because they are external to that selfhood (personality).>

      N: the Pali word attabhaava is here translated as selfhood or personality.
      It can also be translated as individuality.
      The Expositor (II, p. 404) explains: ³Because it is grasped by foolish folk,
      as Œthis body or this collection of the five aggregates is my self,¹
      therefore both the bodily frame or this collection of the five aggregates is
      called Œself-state¹ (attabhaava, i.e. personality).
      ŒIncluded in personality¹ is comprised in and depending on just that.¹
      Individuality can be used to refer to the rupas in one¹s body.

      The Tiika explains:
      <Self includes here ³I² conceit, and thus there is the word selfhood,
      personality.
      Beginning with the eye, they occur as an integral part of the individuality
      (in oneself), internal, dhammas that are connected with faculties, and thus
      their nature is internal. >
      -------
      The Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 231) states :<It is internal
      (ajjhattika), with reference to oneself (attan) understood as an individual.
      Of course, other [kinds of materiality] also originate inside, but by
      convention it is only the eye, etc., that are internal.... it is especially
      the eye, etc., that are called Œinternal¹; or that which occurs in
      connection with (adhikicca) consciousness understood as the self (attan) by
      acting as its door is Œinside¹ (ajjhattan), and that is what is internal.>
      -----
      As to the words of the Visuddhimagga: <Besides, it is internal in the sense
      of one's own that should be understood here as 'internal' and that of
      another person
      as 'external'>, the Tiika explains that this is stated according to the
      Suttanta method. Here the text refers to Œone¹s own¹ and another person in
      the conventional sense.
      Thus not according to the Abhidhamma method, that is, by way of paramattha
      dhammas.

      *****
      NIna.



      op 02-12-2005 14:16 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@...:

      > According to the Vis. and other Commentaries `internal rupas' seem
      > to be limited to the 5 pasaada rupas. This would exclude a lot of
      > rupas which seem to be `within oneself', including the Heart-base.
      > Does this sound correct?
    • seisen_au
      Dear Nina, Thanks once again for your help. Steve
      Message 2 of 4 , Dec 3, 2005
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        Dear Nina,

        Thanks once again for your help.

        Steve


        <Besides, it is internal in the sense of one's own that should be
        >understood here as 'internal' and that of another person
        >as 'external', the Tiika explains that this is stated according to
        >the Suttanta method. Here the text refers to 'one¹s own¹ and another
        >person in the conventional sense. Thus not according to the
        >Abhidhamma method, that is, by way of paramattha dhammas.
        >
        > *****
        > NIna.
      • htootintnaing
        Dear Steve, Nina s answer would be better. But here I would like to answer your questions. With Metta, Htoo Naing ... Steve: Hi All, Another topic that came on
        Message 3 of 4 , Dec 4, 2005
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          Dear Steve,

          Nina's answer would be better. But here I would like to answer
          your questions.

          With Metta,

          Htoo Naing
          ----------------------------------------------------------------
          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" <seisen_@h...>
          wrote:
          ----------------------------------------------------------------
          Steve:

          Hi All,

          Another topic that came on during the recent Cooran gathering was
          internal/external rupas.
          ------------------------------------------------------------------
          Htoo: Let me put Paa.li here for my own reason. They are ajjhattika
          and bahiddhika ruupa.
          ------------------------------------------------------------------
          Steve:

          My understanding based on passages such as
          this from the Dhatu-Vibhanga Sutta was that any rupa considered to
          be within `oneself' was internal.
          -------------------------------------------------------------------
          Htoo:

          We talk individuality. But there is no self. I think the main point
          reside here.
          -------------------------------------------------------------------
          Steve:

          `What is the internal earth property?

          Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained
          [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh,
          tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes,
          spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the
          stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's
          hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth
          property.
          --------------------------------------------------------------------
          Htoo:

          I agree. But this is not to be connected with internal and external
          ruupa, at least I think.

          Because there is NO SELF. So there is no one's self. Nor do hair,
          hairs, nails, teeth etc as ultimate realities.

          Be careful that I am not denying the existences of individuals,
          hair, nails, teeth etc. But hair, hairs, nails etc are not paramattha
          dhamma or ultimate realities.

          Examples; bones.

          You will see bones if you look at them. But what you actually see are
          ruupa (vanna) that is white colour with shape and form.

          What the sutta explain is that these 20 ko.t.thaasa or 20 parts of
          32 body parts have internal patthavi quality.
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------
          Steve:

          According to the Vis. and other Commentaries `internal rupas' seem
          to be limited to the 5 pasaada rupas. This would exclude a lot of
          rupas which seem to be `within oneself', including the Heart-base.

          Does this sound correct?

          Thanks
          Steve
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------
          Htoo:

          When aayatanas or sense-bases are examined there are 12 aayatanas. 6
          internal and 6 external. You already know this 6 pairs of internal
          and external.

          Surely, the first 5 pairs are all ruupa.

          1. eye, sight
          2. ear, sound
          3. nose, smell
          4. tongue, taste
          5. body, touches (hardness, fluidity, pressure)

          Obviously these are ruupas. The firsts are internal and the seconds
          are external.

          Even though your hand or thigh is internal for you or in your thought
          when you touch them what you experience will be pathavii(hardness),
          which is external ruupa and not internal ruupa.

          You mentioned that many ruupa inside the body will be left such as
          hadaya ruupa.

          Let us see 6th pair.

          6. mind, mind-object
          (mana-aayatana) , (dhammaa-aayatana)

          Manaayatana are 89 consciousness.

          Dhammaayatana are

          1. 16 sukhuma ruupa or 16 subtle materials, which include hadaya
          ruupa, water element, maleness, femaleness, nutriment, etc etc.

          2. 52 cetasikas or 52 mental factors

          3. nibbana (absolute peace)

          With Metta,

          Htoo Naing
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