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  • Bhikkhu Samahita
    Friends: The 12 Sense Sources are the main source of Suffering! 1: The eye is a source of Suffering... 2: Forms are a source of Suffering... 3: The ear is a
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 29, 2005
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      Friends:

      The 12 Sense Sources are the main source of Suffering!

      1: The eye is a source of Suffering...
      2: Forms are a source of Suffering...
      3: The ear is a source of Suffering...
      4: Sounds are a source of Suffering...
      5: The nose is a source of Suffering...
      6: Scents are a source of Suffering...
      7: The tongue is a source of Suffering...
      8: Flavours are a source of Suffering...
      9: The body is a source of Suffering...
      10: Tangibles are a source of Suffering...
      11: The mind is a source of Suffering...
      12: Mental phenomena are a source of Suffering.

      Why so ?
      Because, whether they give rise to a pleasant, painful or a neutral
      experience, this will always change, fade away, be lost & vanish...!!!
      This change takes place even at the very moment of the experience!
      Sensing is the soil in which greed and craving takes root and grow...
      Like the chronic morphinist cannot understand nor accept, that to
      be clean, without using drugs, is better & more happy on long-term,
      even so can the habitual hedonist -delighting in any sense pleasure-
      neither understand nor accept, that renunciation & withdrawal from
      all sense experience, is far better and more blissful on the long term...
      Urging for sense pleasure, one gains only ever more frustration & pain!
      Seeing & knowing no other happiness, the hedonist runs headlong back
      to rebirth, ageing, decay, sickness, change, Death and Suffering Again...
      Again & again, life after life, again & again, universe after universe !!!
      Like a rat in a carrousel, blinded by ignorance and bound by craving, do
      beings, in this awful round of rebirth called Samsara, suffer repeatedly!


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then
      will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!!

      Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.

      Friendship is the Greatest ...
      Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!!

      <..>
    • D.
      ... term... ... pain! ... Again... ... universe !!! ... craving, do ... repeatedly! ... Dear Bikkhu Samahita If you call the 6 doors and the 6 objects of
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 30, 2005
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        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita"
        <bhikkhu.samahita@g...> wrote:
        >
        > Friends:
        >
        > The 12 Sense Sources are the main source of Suffering!
        >
        > 1: The eye is a source of Suffering...
        > 2: Forms are a source of Suffering...
        > 3: The ear is a source of Suffering...
        > 4: Sounds are a source of Suffering...
        > 5: The nose is a source of Suffering...
        > 6: Scents are a source of Suffering...
        > 7: The tongue is a source of Suffering...
        > 8: Flavours are a source of Suffering...
        > 9: The body is a source of Suffering...
        > 10: Tangibles are a source of Suffering...
        > 11: The mind is a source of Suffering...
        > 12: Mental phenomena are a source of Suffering.
        >
        > Why so ?
        > Because, whether they give rise to a pleasant, painful or a neutral
        > experience, this will always change, fade away, be lost & vanish...!!!
        > This change takes place even at the very moment of the experience!
        > Sensing is the soil in which greed and craving takes root and grow...
        > Like the chronic morphinist cannot understand nor accept, that to
        > be clean, without using drugs, is better & more happy on long-term,
        > even so can the habitual hedonist -delighting in any sense pleasure-
        > neither understand nor accept, that renunciation & withdrawal from
        > all sense experience, is far better and more blissful on the long
        term...
        > Urging for sense pleasure, one gains only ever more frustration &
        pain!
        > Seeing & knowing no other happiness, the hedonist runs headlong back
        > to rebirth, ageing, decay, sickness, change, Death and Suffering
        Again...
        > Again & again, life after life, again & again, universe after
        universe !!!
        > Like a rat in a carrousel, blinded by ignorance and bound by
        craving, do
        > beings, in this awful round of rebirth called Samsara, suffer
        repeatedly!
        >

        Dear Bikkhu Samahita

        If you call the 6 doors and the 6 objects of grasping the source of
        suffering, i like to quote something from the Abhidharmakosabhasyam,
        by Vasubandu, Vol 2 Chapter 3 page 409.
        ......in fact to the Arhats, sensation is not a cause of desire: from
        whence we conclude that sensation is a cause of desire only if it is
        defiled, associated with ignorance.
        Contact, when it is not accompanied by error, is not a cause of this
        defiled sensation; contact accompanied by error is not produced in an
        Arhat who is free from ignorance; thus the contact that (Skt.
        pratiyasamutpäda)=having attained appearance, indicates as the cause
        of sensation, a cause of desire, is the contact that is accompaned by
        ignorance.quote end

        We can conclude, that not the 12 sources are the cause of suffering,
        but ignorance, incorrect judgement which cause ignorance, is the
        primordial cause of suffering.
        Thus, ignorance causes the 12 sources are the end of a chain of (Skt.
        karma), the basis to be able to experience suffering but not the
        initial cause of the all.
      • nidive
        Hi D. (djimpa2002@y...) & Bhikkhu Samahita, ... I see two kinds of dukkha, active and passive . Delight for the eye is active dukkha. Delight for forms is
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 30, 2005
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          Hi D. (djimpa2002@y...) & Bhikkhu Samahita,

          > We can conclude, that not the 12 sources are the cause of suffering,
          > but ignorance, incorrect judgement which cause ignorance, is the
          > primordial cause of suffering.
          > Thus, ignorance causes the 12 sources are the end of a chain of
          > (Skt. karma), the basis to be able to experience suffering but not
          > the initial cause of the all.

          I see two kinds of dukkha, "active" and "passive".

          Delight for the eye is "active" dukkha.
          Delight for forms is "active" dukkha.
          Delight for the ear is "active" dukkha.
          Delight for sounds is "active" dukkha.
          Delight for the nose is "active" dukkha.
          Delight for scents is "active" dukkha.
          Delight for the tongue is "active" dukkha.
          Delight for flavours is "active" dukkha.
          Delight for the body is "active" dukkha.
          Delight for tangibles is "active" dukkha.
          Delight for the mind is "active" dukkha.
          Delight for mental phenomena (excluding nibbana) is "active" dukkha.
          Delight for nibbana IS ALSO "active" dukkha.

          The eye by itself is "passive" dukkha.
          Forms by itself is "passive" dukkha.
          The ear by itself is "passive" dukkha.
          Sounds by itself is "passive" dukkha.
          The nose by itself is "passive" dukkha.
          Scents by itself is "passive" dukkha.
          The tongue by itself is "passive" dukkha.
          Flavours by itself is "passive" dukkha.
          The body by itself is "passive" dukkha.
          Tangibles by itself is "passive" dukkha.
          The mind by itself is "passive" dukkha.
          Mental phenomena (excluding nibbana) by itself is "passive" dukkha.
          BUT nibbana by itself is NOT "passive" dukkha!

          Delight for the eye arises and dissolutes.
          Delight for forms arises and dissolutes.
          Delight for the ear arises and dissolutes.
          Delight for sounds arises and dissolutes.
          Delight for the nose arises and dissolutes.
          Delight for scents arises and dissolutes.
          Delight for the tongue arises and dissolutes.
          Delight for flavours arises and dissolutes.
          Delight for the body arises and dissolutes.
          Delight for tangibles arises and dissolutes.
          Delight for the mind arises and dissolutes.
          Delight for mental phenomena (excluding nibbana) arises and
          dissolutes.
          Delight for nibbana arises and dissolutes.

          The eye arises and dissolutes.
          Forms arises and dissolutes.
          The ear arises and dissolutes.
          Sounds arises and dissolutes.
          The nose arises and dissolutes.
          Scents arises and dissolutes.
          The tongue arises and dissolutes.
          Flavours arises and dissolutes.
          The body arises and dissolutes.
          Tangibles arises and dissolutes.
          The mind arises and dissolutes.
          Mental phenomena (excluding nibbana) arises and dissolutes.
          BUT nibbana is the ANTITHESIS of all that arises and dissolutes.

          An arahant has ridden himself of delight or "active" dukkha. The
          "passive" dukkha that remains is shaken off at parinibbana.

          Regards,
          Swee Boon
        • D.
          ... Hi Boon I completely agree with this statement! Would you translate passive dukkha, with the term latent defilement ? Which constituent would qualify a
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 30, 2005
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            >
            > An arahant has ridden himself of delight or "active" dukkha. The
            > "passive" dukkha that remains is shaken off at parinibbana.
            >
            > Regards,
            > Swee Boon


            Hi Boon
            I completely agree with this statement!
            Would you translate passive dukkha, with the term 'latent defilement'?

            Which constituent would qualify a active dukkha?
            Are these the 6 (Skt.) anusayas= attachment, anger, pride, ignorance,
            false view and doubt?
            I guess, only anger, pride and attachment refere to the active dukkha,
            and false view to the latent defilement, doubt to both categories?
            Just my guess.

            Best wishes Djimpa
          • Hal
            Hi Djimpa, Wouldn t the notion of latent defilements be more a part of the mental aspect of suffering, that Swee Boon calls active ; whereas, dukkha as
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 30, 2005
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              Hi Djimpa,

              Wouldn't the notion of "latent defilements" be more a part of the
              mental aspect of suffering, that Swee Boon calls "active";
              whereas, "dukkha as dukkha", or the suffering stemming from the
              physical body alone, would be the "passive" form? Arahants wouldn't
              suffer any latent defilements stemming from the mind, as these would
              have been completely eradicated. On the other hand, they could still
              experience "dukkha as dukkha" without any mental suffering accompanying
              their experience.

              Hal
            • D.
              ... Djimpa answer: What kind of suffering would be possible without the mind? The one who knows that he suffers? ... Djimap answer: Speculations about
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 30, 2005
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                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" <halwilson@g...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Djimpa,
                >
                > Wouldn't the notion of "latent defilements" be more a part of the
                > mental aspect of suffering, that Swee Boon calls "active";

                Djimpa answer: What kind of suffering would be possible without the
                mind? The one who knows that he suffers?

                > whereas, "dukkha as dukkha", or the suffering stemming from the
                > physical body alone, would be the "passive" form?

                Djimap answer: Speculations about suffering which could be possible
                without the mind? Body as a kind of self which can operate independent
                from the mind? Most unlikely!You would end up with two kind of
                personalities with all features your mind already takes care for!

                Arahants wouldn't
                > suffer any latent defilements stemming from the mind, as these would
                > have been completely eradicated. On the other hand, they could still
                > experience "dukkha as dukkha" without any mental suffering accompanying
                > their experience.

                Djimpa answer: If the Arhat has eradicated all latent defilements how
                could he still know about dukkha without mental suffering? That's the
                contradiction in itself!
                What is possible is, that an Arhat has knowledge about something (not
                as a kind of his personal experience of himself) but, others would
                call suffering, and he would know which misperception did lead to such
                experience, on the other hand he would also know that this suffering
                is without reality. Because it is not part of his mind-stream, since
                he has eradicated the cause of ignorance in his mind.
                Noble ones in meditative equipoise have no knowledge about the seeming
                reality which is marked by the defilements of ignorance.
                It is us who have no knowledge about Skt. nirvana who still do know
                about the seeming reality called Skt. samsara.

                With best wishes Djimpa
              • Hal
                Hi Djimpa, Thanks for you thoughtful reply. Do I hear echoes of the mind-only doctrine in your remarks? (I m not sure how this perspective accords with the
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 30, 2005
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                  Hi Djimpa,

                  Thanks for you thoughtful reply. Do I hear echoes of the mind-only
                  doctrine in your remarks? (I'm not sure how this perspective accords
                  with the Abhidhamma. Once I understand the Abhidhamma (my knowledge
                  is rather limited, to say the least) I would like try to understand
                  the latter by way of comparison. With this in mind, I offer a few
                  comments.

                  Djimpa: What kind of suffering would be possible without the
                  mind? The one who knows that he suffers?

                  Hal: I think this depends on what we mean by dukkha; suffering is
                  perhaps not the best translation. One could be aware of the
                  unsatisfactory nature of the body. That would be "suffering" of a
                  sorts.

                  Djimpa: Djimap answer: Speculations about suffering which could be
                  possible without the mind? Body as a kind of self which can operate
                  independent from the mind? Most unlikely!You would end up with two
                  kind of personalities with all features your mind already takes care
                  for!

                  Hal: I didn't mean to suggested there was a mind-body dualism such as
                  this. The nama/rupa distinction, from the Abhidhamma perspective,
                  does not involve any such assumptions.

                  My understanding about Arahants is very limited so I don't how to
                  reply to your interesting remarks concerning the distinction I was
                  trying to make between dukkha arising in the mind and dukkha arising
                  from the unsatisfactory nature of the body".

                  Hal
                • Bhikkhu samahita
                  ... suffering. Indeed. Ignorance is the deepest root of suffering. ... That is too fast a conclusion since, as you maybe well know: Ignorance = mental
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 30, 2005
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                    Friend D. wrote:

                    >incorrect judgment which cause ignorance, is the primordial cause of
                    suffering.
                    Indeed. Ignorance is the deepest root of suffering.

                    >We can conclude, that the 12 sources NOT are the cause of suffering,
                    That is too fast a conclusion since, as you maybe well know:

                    Ignorance => mental construction => consciousness => name-&-form =>
                    THE 6 SENSES !!! => CONTACT (with 6 Objects) => feeling => craving
                    => clinging => becoming => birth => ageing, decay & death => SUFFERING!!!

                    Ignorance is the root cause of Suffering...
                    The 12 sense sources are remote causes of Suffering!
                    The intermediate media, through which ignorance acts,
                    in the causal chain of dependent origination of Pain!

                    PS: In this Dhamma the Buddha is the ultimate authority & reference...
                    Vasubandhu, Nagarjuna, Buddhaghosa etc. are just "commentators" !!!

                    May all beings be calmed
                    and relinquish their views

                    Friendship is the Greatest ...
                    Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.
                    <...>
                  • Bhikkhu samahita
                    ... The eye & the forms are Old Kamma ... !!! (namely prior cravings for eye & forms) manifesting their results (vipaka) now. ... Indeed thereby creating new
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 30, 2005
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                      Friend Swee Boon (nidive) quite wisely wrote:

                      >The eye by itself is "passive" dukkha.
                      >Forms by itself is "passive" dukkha.
                      The eye & the forms are Old Kamma ... !!!
                      (namely prior cravings for eye & forms)
                      manifesting their results (vipaka) now.


                      >Delight for the eye is "active" dukkha.
                      >Delight for forms is "active" dukkha.
                      Indeed thereby creating new craving &
                      kamma resulting in future becoming with
                      manifestation of new eyes & new forms &
                      new cravings, & dissolutions, & death again!


                      Friendship is the Greatest ...
                      Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka.
                      <...>
                    • D.
                      ... accords ... Well yes, i am not a Therevarda follower as i said in the beginning of my introduction in this list. I did study the Madyamaka by Nagarjurna
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 31, 2005
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                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hal" <halwilson@g...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Djimpa,
                        >
                        > Thanks for you thoughtful reply. Do I hear echoes of the mind-only
                        > doctrine in your remarks? (I'm not sure how this perspective
                        accords
                        > with the Abhidhamma.

                        Well yes, i am not a Therevarda follower as i said in the beginning
                        of my introduction in this list. I did study the Madyamaka by
                        Nagarjurna and aspects of the Mind only school in India.
                        Also it depends which Abhidharma do you use, the one from Vasubandu
                        does fit very much with the Mind only school, in fact i find a lot
                        taken from the Abhidharma the Mind only school did incorporate in
                        their school. And it has to be also, one can not start to hold a
                        view which wasn't taught before by the Buddha!


                        Once I understand the Abhidhamma (my knowledge
                        > is rather limited, to say the least) I would like try to
                        understand
                        > the latter by way of comparison. With this in mind, I offer a few
                        > comments.
                        >
                        >
                        > Hal: I didn't mean to suggested there was a mind-body dualism such
                        as
                        > this. The nama/rupa distinction, from the Abhidhamma perspective,
                        > does not involve any such assumptions.
                        Djimpa answer: Well, but you spoke about the latent dukkha as nature
                        of the body limited aspect? Maybe you refere to the fact that the
                        body is composed and that's why impermanent? That is considered as
                        suffering. What comes together will fall off.
                        But in this case i did refere to the mind, there are defilement's of
                        the active aspects and defilement's of the passive aspect.
                        Still i don't know both aspects definitions and enumerated according
                        to the Therevada system?

                        > My understanding about Arahants is very limited so I don't how to
                        > reply to your interesting remarks concerning the distinction I was
                        > trying to make between dukkha arising in the mind and dukkha
                        arising
                        > from the unsatisfactory nature of the body".
                        >
                        > Hal
                        Djimpa answer:
                        The Abhidharmakosa by Vasubandu does offer a detail analyse of the
                        different (4) possible arhats.
                        The Abhidharma is a treasure of knowledge!


                        Best wishes Djimpa
                        >
                      • D.
                        ... SUFFERING!!! ... Dear Bikkhu Samahita Indeed, i agree with this kind of presentation. Best wishes Djimpa
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 31, 2005
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                          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu samahita
                          <bhikkhu.samahita@g...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Friend D. wrote:
                          >
                          > >incorrect judgment which cause ignorance, is the primordial cause of
                          > suffering.
                          > Indeed. Ignorance is the deepest root of suffering.
                          >
                          > >We can conclude, that the 12 sources NOT are the cause of suffering,
                          > That is too fast a conclusion since, as you maybe well know:
                          >
                          > Ignorance => mental construction => consciousness => name-&-form =>
                          > THE 6 SENSES !!! => CONTACT (with 6 Objects) => feeling => craving
                          > => clinging => becoming => birth => ageing, decay & death =>
                          SUFFERING!!!
                          >
                          > Ignorance is the root cause of Suffering...
                          > The 12 sense sources are remote causes of Suffering!
                          > The intermediate media, through which ignorance acts,
                          > in the causal chain of dependent origination of Pain!

                          Dear Bikkhu Samahita

                          Indeed, i agree with this kind of presentation.

                          Best wishes Djimpa
                        • nidive
                          Hi Bhikkhu Samahita, ... Sharp! Sharp indeed! Discussing the Dhamma with you is such a joy! Regards, Swee Boon
                          Message 12 of 12 , Oct 31, 2005
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                            Hi Bhikkhu Samahita,

                            > Friend Swee Boon (nidive) quite wisely wrote:
                            >
                            > >The eye by itself is "passive" dukkha.
                            > >Forms by itself is "passive" dukkha.
                            > The eye & the forms are Old Kamma ... !!!
                            > (namely prior cravings for eye & forms)
                            > manifesting their results (vipaka) now.
                            >
                            > >Delight for the eye is "active" dukkha.
                            > >Delight for forms is "active" dukkha.
                            > Indeed thereby creating new craving &
                            > kamma resulting in future becoming with
                            > manifestation of new eyes & new forms &
                            > new cravings, & dissolutions, & death again!

                            Sharp! Sharp indeed!

                            Discussing the Dhamma with you is such a joy!

                            Regards,
                            Swee Boon
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