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[dsg] Re: Kundaliyasutta and Co. part 1.

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  • Egbert
    Dear Nina, Thank you for your comments. I appreciate them muchly. ... when we ... become like ... obsessing ... it is ... There is a point in your post, as in
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 1, 2005
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      Dear Nina,

      Thank you for your comments. I appreciate them muchly.


      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@x>
      wrote:
      > Hi Tep and herman,
      > interesting points.
      > op 01-08-2005 04:20 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...:
      >
      > > In (I) we are not told how to not become excited by an agreeable form
      > > we have seen.
      > > In (II) we are not told how to abandon bodily misconduct, etc.
      > -----
      > N: By the development of right understanding of nama and rupa. Even
      when we
      > become excited by an agreeable form we can gradually learn to understand
      > excitement as a conditioned nama, and at that moment we see it as less
      > important. It makes me think of what the Buddha said to Rahula:
      become like
      > the earth and agreeable and disagreeable objects will not keep on
      obsessing
      > you. But Rahula was on his way to become an arahat.
      > The development of paññaa is a gradual process and if we forget that
      it is
      > the task of sati and paññaa to develop, not us, we may try all sorts of
      > things to avoid akusala. This will be counteractive.
      > Nina.

      There is a point in your post, as in the Kundaliyasutta, where the
      reader could be left wondering "what next?" How does the development
      of right understanding of nama and rupa happen? How do we gradually
      learn? I see no reason to assume that the gradual development of sati
      and panna is bound to happen, anytime in the future, no matter how
      distant.

      Samsara has rolled on for literally billions and billions of years. I
      see no trend or assurance that sati or panna spontaneously develops. I
      do definitely and very clearly see a trend and assurance that samsara
      will roll on just as it has been. Because things that lead to becoming
      lead to becoming, not cessation.

      What leads to future becoming? Is it not the determination that
      becoming is desirable? Is there an occasion for determining? Is not
      each and every moment an occasion for determining?

      If each determining moment is itself determined (as in absolutely
      conditioned) then THERE IS NO PATH TO LIBERATION.

      If each determining moment is undetermined (as in absolute free will)
      then THERE IS NO LAW OF KAMMA.

      If there is a middle way, isn't that called Buddhism? :-)

      Kind Regards



      Herman
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Hi Herman, I find your questions very good for reflection. I do not know whether I can answer all, or whether I can answer them in a satisfactory way. ... N:
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 2, 2005
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        Hi Herman,
        I find your questions very good for reflection. I do not know whether I can
        answer all, or whether I can answer them in a satisfactory way.
        op 02-08-2005 01:33 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...:
        >
        > There is a point in your post, as in the Kundaliyasutta, where the
        > reader could be left wondering "what next?" How does the development
        > of right understanding of nama and rupa happen?
        -----
        N: It seems like a repetition if I say again: listen, discuss, reflect, read
        suttas, let the suttas sink in. But I feel that slowy in this way
        understanding of the level of listening grows. We should not underestimate
        this intellectual level of understanding, it is the foundation of further
        development towards direct understanding.
        Kusala citta that reflects is not alone! It is accompanied by many
        supporting cetasikas, mental qualities. Such as confidence in kusala,
        energy, wholesome wish-to-do, cetanaa or wholesome volition, calm,
        concentration and many others. They arise for a moment and then fall away,
        but they are accumulated.
        This means: they are accumulated conditions for the arising again of similar
        wholesome qualities. That is how the learning process goes on from moment to
        moment, and from life to life. This is encouraging!
        ------
        H: How do we gradually
        > learn? I see no reason to assume that the gradual development of sati
        > and panna is bound to happen, anytime in the future, no matter how
        > distant.
        -------
        N: As explained above. The citta and cetasikas learn. We do not think of the
        future, the Buddha said: don't cling to the past, don't cling to the future,
        be aware of the present moment. As Ken H said many times; there is only the
        present moment that we can learn. I appreciate all his reminders, they are
        good for me too.
        -------
        H: Samsara has rolled on for literally billions and billions of years. I
        > see no trend or assurance that sati or panna spontaneously develops.
        -------
        N: Spontaneously is not the right word. We need all the help we possibly
        can. We should not waste our time. There is our social life where we should
        apply the Dhamma when we are with other people. There are many ways of
        giving and helping. Ways to become less selfish, thinking less of 'our
        precious personality'.
        We should be grateful for the understanding we acquired already from the
        Dhamma, even though it is only intellectual understanding. If we had not
        heard the Dhamma we would not understand anything about kusala, akusala, the
        conditions that are operating in our lives, our reactions to pleasant and
        unpleasant experiences.
        A long time ago you found the notions of kusala and akusala difficult to
        understand. If you read the suttas it helps to understand the benefit of
        kusala and the danger of akusala.
        ---------
        H:... What leads to future becoming? Is it not the determination that
        > becoming is desirable? ....
        > If each determining moment is itself determined (as in absolutely
        > conditioned) then THERE IS NO PATH TO LIBERATION.
        ------
        N:Ignorance and clinging lead to becoming. There is a Path. If we try to
        understand conditions, free will, determination, kamma and result, by
        reasoning about them, it is not helpful. The Path is the development of
        understanding, very gradually, and we can verify this. The Path is not
        reasoning or logic, it is development.
        -------
        H: If each determining moment is undetermined (as in absolute free will)
        > then THERE IS NO LAW OF KAMMA.

        > If there is a middle way, isn't that called Buddhism? :-)
        -------
        N: It is beneficial, even necessary to avoid extremes, and that is the
        middle way.
        Nina.
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