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Re: [dsg] correction Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 176

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  • LBIDD@webtv.net
    Hi Nina, One other question on ignorance. Does either of the consciousnesses rooted in ignorance have kammic consequences (kamma vipaka)? Larry
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 1, 2005
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      Hi Nina,

      One other question on ignorance. Does either of the consciousnesses
      rooted in ignorance have kammic consequences (kamma vipaka)?

      Larry
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Hi Larry, ... N: Yes. The first type, with doubt, can produce rebirth, and the second type, with restlessness does not produce rebirth-consciousness, but it
      Message 2 of 3 , Aug 2, 2005
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        Hi Larry,
        op 02-08-2005 01:14 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...:
        > One other question on ignorance. Does either of the consciousnesses
        > rooted in ignorance have kammic consequences (kamma vipaka)?
        ----
        N: Yes. The first type, with doubt, can produce rebirth, and the second
        type, with restlessness does not produce rebirth-consciousness, but it can
        produce akusala vipaakacittas arising in the course of life. We go back to:
        Tiika Vis. XIV, 93:

        <Excluding here the consciousness rooted in ignorance and accompanied by
        restlessness, the other eleven types of unwholesome consciousness produce
        rebirth-consciousness in the four unhappy planes and they produce also
        result in the course of life in a happy plane.
        However, consciousness rooted in ignorance and accompanied by restlessness
        produces result only in the course of life.
        But in this case, what is the reason that the (kamma) accompanied by doubt
        that is the weakest of all, produces rebirth,
        whereas the (kamma) accompanied by restlessness, which is associated with
        determination and thus stronger than that, does not produce rebirth?

        N: The cetasika determination, adhimokkha, does not accompany doubt,
        therefore the citta with doubt is called the weakest of all. Determination
        accompanies the second type of citta rooted in ignorance and thus this is
        stronger than the first type.

        Tiika:Because it is not said that it is to be abandoned by insight.

        N: The defilements that are abandoned by seeing or insight (dassana) are
        those eradicated by the streamwinner. His path-consciousness is called
        seeing, since there is the seeing of nibbana for the first time. The
        defilements abandoned by cultivation (bhaavanaa) are those abandoned by
        arahatship. Only the arahat has eradicated restlessness completely. The
        streamwinner has no more conditions to be reborn in an unhappy plane. But
        since he still has not eradicated restlessness it is said in the Co. that
        restlessness has no intrinsic capacity to produce rebirth.
        It is explained that if restlessness could produce an unhappy rebirth, then
        ariyans who are not arahats could be reborn in an unhappy plane, but this is
        impossible. Therefore, restlessness can produce only result in the course of
        life. >
        --------
        L: Is it correct that stiffness and torpor (thiina-middha) do not arise
        with consciousness rooted in ignorance because they only arise with
        prompted unwholesome consciousnesses, and then only occasionally, and
        neither consciousness rooted in ignorance is prompted?
        -------
        N: Yes, correct. These two types are weak, not keen. They are utterly
        deluded as the Tiika states. Therefore it is not said of these that they are
        unprompted or prompted. They are not accompanied by sloth and torpor.
        Nina.
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