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Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 B

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  • Sukinder
    Dear Eznir, ... moha ... S Only with the arising of panna can the right and wrong way be distinguished. The problem is that we take to be sati what is not,
    Message 1 of 379 , Jul 1 1:28 AM
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      Dear Eznir,

      Continuing from the last post:
      ---------------------------------------------
      > Old Sukinder: My point however was to show the danger of lobha and
      moha
      > in taking us the wrong way. In a day, almost never are we on the
      > Middle Path, it is so illusive that we are all the time leaning
      > either on the eternity side or the annihilation side. And it is
      > avijja which puts us there and it is lobha supported by ditthi which
      > can then lead us astray, away from the middle path.
      >
      > Eznir: Exactly! All the more reason why we should choose to cultivate
      > mindfulness and awareness.

      S>
      Only with the arising of panna can the right and wrong way be
      distinguished. The problem is that we take to be sati what is not, and so
      the path of practice then taken is one that is a reflection of such
      misconception.
      ---------------------------------------

      Eznir: It is only then that with directed thought
      > and sustained thought we nurture the conditions for panna to arise.
      > When ever the hindrances that you mentioned above arises one must
      be
      > aware that they have arisen. Only then does panna know that it is a
      > mind with hindrances and how it arose. But why should we know how
      > hindrances arise? So that panna will know the cause & conditions for
      > its arising.

      S>
      Thinking is only as good as the `understanding' behind it, this is why it is
      stressed that panna leads the way. Lobha must appear to sati and
      panna, only then can it be known. We can `think' about it, but this is
      different from satipatthana, whereas if the thinking is seen with
      wisdom, then that would be a moment of right practice.

      Understanding dhamma on the conceptual level is pariyatti; the stress is
      on "understanding" and not "thinking". And understanding correctly, one
      does not then go about engaging in practices involving `self' and control.
      It is when there is thinking about Dhamma without understanding, that
      there arises an idea about `doing'.
      =========================================

      > Sukinder: Not necessary to say, "keep in mind", but dhammas do
      arise
      > all the time and depending on many, many conditions we will be
      > reminded about the moment or we will not.
      >
      > Eznir: It is nesessary. Dhammas do arise all the time and to be
      reminded
      > about the moment or not, does depend on the inclination of our mind.
      > Our minds are never in a blank state, all the time it is involved in
      > some thinking.

      S>
      Reminders are necessary; association with wise friends is one such
      condition for this to happen. And when the mind is inclined towards
      dhamma as against other matters, then reminders come in from many
      directions. However, this can happen with all levels of understandings
      and misunderstandings. So it is one thing to see the value of being
      reminded and have correct intellectual understanding, but another to
      remind oneself constantly about what needs to be done.
      The former can be with the understanding that dhammas are
      conditioned and beyond control, whereas the latter may be with the
      idea of self and control. Again I stress `understanding' as
      against `thinking' about dhamma.
      > =========================================
      >
      > Sukinder: If alobha and vijja arises, well and good, it knows.
      >
      > Eznir: But this "alobha and vijja" do not arise like a flash! They too
      are
      > subjected to the "many, many conditions" you mentioned above.
      These
      > many many conditons are the inclination of the mind that conditons
      > alobha and vijja to arise!

      S>
      Only panna conditions more panna and this cannot be willed. There can
      however be the illusion that one is thinking about dhamma regularly and
      that this is associated with right understanding. If this is the case, then
      in fact one is going the wrong way. Wrong understanding conditions
      wrong practice.
      =========================================

      > Sukinder: But their opposites don't and we could do well with
      > reminders about their being almost perpetually present.
      >
      > Eznir: See how you contradict yourself here; you say, "Not necessary
      to
      > say, "keep in mind"" that dhammas do arise all the time. But when it
      > comes to lobha and avijja you say, "we could do well with reminders
      > about their being almost perpetually present" - that is to *keep in
      > mind*. They too are dhammas that arise all the time?

      S>
      Again, saying, "keep in mind" is different from "understanding" the value
      of being reminded.

      To be continuedÂ….

      Metta,

      Sukinder
    • sarah
      Dear Htoo, Before I forget, I just want to say that I thought your post #131749 Vipassana 017 discussing the Dhammacakkapavattaa Sutta and 4NT was the best
      Message 379 of 379 , Jul 17 11:41 PM
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        Dear Htoo,

        Before I forget, I just want to say that I thought your post #131749 Vipassana 017 discussing the Dhammacakkapavattaa Sutta and 4NT was the best since your return. Very clear and useful!

        Back to this topic....

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." <htoonaing@...> wrote:

        > Htoo:
        >
        > I am not writing on understanding here. Understanding parts have been
        > done in earlier DTs. I wrote 'walking' that is during the action of walking. Word-repeating is not main thing here. Nothing is control here when walking. Arising mind one after another are being contemplated. Direction can be to naama things or ruupa things.
        ....
        S: Why is there any selection at all about what is being contemplated at this or any other time? Isn't this the opposite of understanding with detachment?
        ....

        > Sarah:
        >
        > This is the complete opposite of what the Buddha taught, the opposite of developing understanding and awarness naturally, no matter what realities arise at this moment.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Htoo:
        >
        > Magga citta will never never arise naturally. Actually following realities. When in walking ( or sitting, or lying, or standing) arising things are kept being seen.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        ...
        S: Dhammas can only ever arise naturally - even magga citta. Sabbe dhamma anatta! Conditioned realities.
        ....

        > Sarah:
        >
        > It is the (wrong) idea of trying to control or guide realities, not understanding their conditioned nature at all.
        > ...
        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Htoo:
        >
        > This is not true. Nothing is controlled. Guidance is necessary. Without guidance may lead to unfruitful. The part understanding is as I wrote in today post DT 904 in sacca-~naa.nas of 12 sacca-~naa.na.
        > Here in walking or sitting or standing or lying is for kicca-~naa.nas.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------

        S: Even what we call "guidance" are simply moments of thinking which are conditioned too. There can be understanding and awareness anywhere, anytime at all of any object which appears ...naturally.

        Kicca nana - to perform.... the development of satipatthana. The right understanding of the 4NT beginning with the understanding of the khandhas subject to clinging. For example, visible object which appears now is khandha which can be known directly when it appears. No need to think of posture or any activity or special guidance at all. Just the element which is seen at this very moment for an instant.

        The same applies to seeing, hearing or any other conditioned dhamma appearing now. It's not a matter of focussing or attending or of self doing anything at all. Just understanding what appears!
        ....
        > > >H: During this slow walking there arise sense of tenseness, lightness, moving up, heaviness, pressing down and so on. All these happen on body. When dhamma is directly seen then 'santati' is broken.
        > ...
        > S: This is just thinking about one's own body, concentrating on one's body, not the understanding of realities, let alone the impermanence of those realities.
        > ...
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Htoo:
        >
        > You had better fulfill all bojjha`ngas and magga`ngas. If you are fulfilling then you will see that arising dhammas have so and so characters as your own understanding not by-heart-learnt things.
        ...
        S: The understanding has to begin to develop now by becoming familiar with and knowing what appears. No self to fulfill or do anything.

        This is why we talk a lot about different realities - in order to see that there is nothing else.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > >H: This is very first step of 'sammasana's work. The first vipassanaa ~naa.na. Before this there are 2 ~naa.na which are not directly vipassanaa. They are naamaruupavavatthaana ~naa.na or naamaruupapariccheda ~naana.
        > ...
        > S: Again, I disagree.
        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Htoo:
        >
        > Why not?
        ...
        S: Actually, it depends on the way of counting the vipassana nanas and whether it starts at the third stage of tender insight (sammasana nana) as you indicate or at the first stage (nama-rupa vipassana nana) which I was thinking of. I believe there are other ways as well.

        So we're both correct . I added the following in my comment:

        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Sarah:
        >
        > First there has to begin to be the clear understanding of namas and rupas now and the distinction - just those realities which experience an object and those which don't experience anything. No self, no body, no walking, no pressing down at all.

        Metta

        Sarah
        =====
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