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Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.]

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  • Jonothan Abbott
    Hi Tep ... There is a lot of meat in your post. I hope you don t mind if I take just a part of it to begin with ;-)) ... I think you are referring to this
    Message 1 of 379 , Jun 2, 2005
      Hi Tep

      Tep Sastri wrote:

      >Hi, Jon -
      >
      >Our conversation on satipatthana, and the ways it may be developed,
      >continues in this post.
      >

      There is a lot of 'meat' in your post. I hope you don't mind if I take
      just a part of it to begin with ;-))

      >Jon: Yes, as you say, the sutta mentions walking in the context of the 4
      >bodily postures. And in the overall context I believe this indicates that
      >the development of satipatthana is free of any particular bodily
      >posture ...
      >
      >Tep: But don't forget that the sutta also specifically states that the
      >breathing meditation should be carried out while the bhikkhu is sitting
      >with legs crossed and straight back.
      >

      I think you are referring to this well-known passage from the sutta:
      "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree,
      or to an empty place, sits down, bends in his legs crosswise on his lap,
      keeps his body erect, and arouses mindfulness in the object of
      meditation, namely, the breath which is in front of him. ..."

      On my reading, this passage is not a teaching on how breathing
      meditation should be carried out, but is a description of the person to
      whom the next part of the teaching (the 4 tetrads) is addressed.

      Please note particularly the words 'gone to the forest, ... sits down
      etc. and arouses mindfulness in the object of meditation, namely, the
      breath which is in front of him.' This describes a monk in whom both
      samatha with breath as object and mindfulness are already well
      developed. Only this person is capable of the further development that
      is described in the following 4 tetrads.

      >Tep: Of course, the conditions that support arising of mindfulness are
      >one thing and the various tools ("directed practices") to be used to
      >develop such conditions are another. ...
      >For example, the Anapanasati is a tool, which
      >requires sitting and 16 bases (4 tetrads) for training mindfulness,
      >concentration, and insights. ...
      >
      >

      The problem with regarding the various parts of the section on
      kayanupasana as describing 'tools' is that not all of the descriptions
      in the kayanupasana section fit into that pigeon-hole. Please consider
      the following passage:

      "And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu,
      in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear
      comprehension;
      in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, ...;
      in bending and in stretching...;
      in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, ...;
      in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured...;
      in defecating and in urinating; in walking, in standing (in a place), in
      sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in
      keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension."

      Is there any 'tool' described here? I don't think so. I see it as a
      description of ordinary, everyday, monks' activities. And I think the
      rest of the kayanupasana section can also be seen as describing
      activities forming part of the life lead by different kinds of monks,
      rather than actions to be deliberately undertaken for the sake of a
      satipatthana 'practice'.

      That's all for this post. I hope to come back on more of your points later!

      Jon
    • sarah
      Dear Htoo, Before I forget, I just want to say that I thought your post #131749 Vipassana 017 discussing the Dhammacakkapavattaa Sutta and 4NT was the best
      Message 379 of 379 , Jul 17, 2013
        Dear Htoo,

        Before I forget, I just want to say that I thought your post #131749 Vipassana 017 discussing the Dhammacakkapavattaa Sutta and 4NT was the best since your return. Very clear and useful!

        Back to this topic....

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." <htoonaing@...> wrote:

        > Htoo:
        >
        > I am not writing on understanding here. Understanding parts have been
        > done in earlier DTs. I wrote 'walking' that is during the action of walking. Word-repeating is not main thing here. Nothing is control here when walking. Arising mind one after another are being contemplated. Direction can be to naama things or ruupa things.
        ....
        S: Why is there any selection at all about what is being contemplated at this or any other time? Isn't this the opposite of understanding with detachment?
        ....

        > Sarah:
        >
        > This is the complete opposite of what the Buddha taught, the opposite of developing understanding and awarness naturally, no matter what realities arise at this moment.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Htoo:
        >
        > Magga citta will never never arise naturally. Actually following realities. When in walking ( or sitting, or lying, or standing) arising things are kept being seen.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        ...
        S: Dhammas can only ever arise naturally - even magga citta. Sabbe dhamma anatta! Conditioned realities.
        ....

        > Sarah:
        >
        > It is the (wrong) idea of trying to control or guide realities, not understanding their conditioned nature at all.
        > ...
        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Htoo:
        >
        > This is not true. Nothing is controlled. Guidance is necessary. Without guidance may lead to unfruitful. The part understanding is as I wrote in today post DT 904 in sacca-~naa.nas of 12 sacca-~naa.na.
        > Here in walking or sitting or standing or lying is for kicca-~naa.nas.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------

        S: Even what we call "guidance" are simply moments of thinking which are conditioned too. There can be understanding and awareness anywhere, anytime at all of any object which appears ...naturally.

        Kicca nana - to perform.... the development of satipatthana. The right understanding of the 4NT beginning with the understanding of the khandhas subject to clinging. For example, visible object which appears now is khandha which can be known directly when it appears. No need to think of posture or any activity or special guidance at all. Just the element which is seen at this very moment for an instant.

        The same applies to seeing, hearing or any other conditioned dhamma appearing now. It's not a matter of focussing or attending or of self doing anything at all. Just understanding what appears!
        ....
        > > >H: During this slow walking there arise sense of tenseness, lightness, moving up, heaviness, pressing down and so on. All these happen on body. When dhamma is directly seen then 'santati' is broken.
        > ...
        > S: This is just thinking about one's own body, concentrating on one's body, not the understanding of realities, let alone the impermanence of those realities.
        > ...
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Htoo:
        >
        > You had better fulfill all bojjha`ngas and magga`ngas. If you are fulfilling then you will see that arising dhammas have so and so characters as your own understanding not by-heart-learnt things.
        ...
        S: The understanding has to begin to develop now by becoming familiar with and knowing what appears. No self to fulfill or do anything.

        This is why we talk a lot about different realities - in order to see that there is nothing else.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > >H: This is very first step of 'sammasana's work. The first vipassanaa ~naa.na. Before this there are 2 ~naa.na which are not directly vipassanaa. They are naamaruupavavatthaana ~naa.na or naamaruupapariccheda ~naana.
        > ...
        > S: Again, I disagree.
        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Htoo:
        >
        > Why not?
        ...
        S: Actually, it depends on the way of counting the vipassana nanas and whether it starts at the third stage of tender insight (sammasana nana) as you indicate or at the first stage (nama-rupa vipassana nana) which I was thinking of. I believe there are other ways as well.

        So we're both correct . I added the following in my comment:

        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Sarah:
        >
        > First there has to begin to be the clear understanding of namas and rupas now and the distinction - just those realities which experience an object and those which don't experience anything. No self, no body, no walking, no pressing down at all.

        Metta

        Sarah
        =====
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