Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth?

Expand Messages
  • buddhatrue
    ... one ... almost never the ... advanced ... rest of ... lack of ... mindstream ... condition for an ... Hi Howard (and All), Nice to see you back. Hope you
    Message 1 of 15 , May 1, 2005
      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:

      > =======================
      > Here's an opinion - only my opinion, and not Dhamma: Ideally,
      one
      > should pass on in a state of clarity and calm. This, however, is
      almost never the
      > case, for at least one is typically missing. For a person who is an
      advanced
      > practitioner, attaining both of these is closer to possible. For the
      rest of
      > us, this is rarely so. It seems to me that the more problematical of
      lack of
      > clarity and lack of calm at the moment of death is lack of calm. A
      mindstream
      > torn by pain, fear, regret and perhaps anger is not in good
      condition for an
      > auspicious rebirth, it seems to me. <snip>

      Hi Howard (and All),

      Nice to see you back. Hope you had a nice vacation. Your post is
      very intriguing to me (as well as Christine's question). I did some
      research into the Tibetian Book of the Dead for some possible answers
      to this issue. I was interesting to see that, according to Tibetian
      Buddhism, you are correct in stating that calm is the most important
      factor for a favorable rebirth. It seems that when a person dies
      he/she is confronted with the karma of his/her lifetime, very much
      like remembering a dream upon waking. This review of the "Ordinary
      Life Bardo" can have actual images from the lifetime or it can be
      symbolic, but the predominately positive or negative energy of the
      karma confronts the consciousness of the dying person and results in
      either a reaction of calm or fear/agitation/confusion of the
      consciousness. The calm response results in rebirth in the higher
      realms and the fearful response results in rebirth in the lower
      realms. Unfortunately, this process is so automatic that the
      consciousness doesn't have much opportunity to *will* a calm response
      in the face of negative karma. Therefore, living a stain-free life is
      the most guaranteed way for a favorable rebirth, as the Buddha taught.

      Of course the Buddha didn't teach anything about this subject, but it
      stands to reason that he wouldn't care to. He taught only suffering
      and the path leading to the cessation of suffering, he didn't teach
      the details of death and how to have a favorable rebirth. However,
      that isn't to say the Tibetians are wrong about this matter. Just
      something to consider.

      Metta,
      James
      http://www.lib.virginia.edu/small/exhibits/dead/index2.html
    • upasaka@aol.com
      Hi, James - In a message dated 5/1/05 7:05:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... ==================== Thank you! :-) It was a wonderful family get-together, a bit
      Message 2 of 15 , May 1, 2005
        Hi, James -

        In a message dated 5/1/05 7:05:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
        buddhatrue@... writes:

        > Hi Howard (and All),
        >
        > Nice to see you back. Hope you had a nice vacation.
        ====================
        Thank you! :-) It was a wonderful family get-together, a bit hectic
        but wonderful.

        With metta,
        Howard

        /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
        in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
        phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra) 


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tep Sastri
        Dear Howard - ... to sail through the death process with clarity and calm. May we all have the fortitude to practice adequately and the kusala supportive
        Message 3 of 15 , May 1, 2005
          Dear Howard -


          > Howard: It would be a great blessing to master the jhanas sufficiently
          to sail through the death process with clarity and calm. May we all have
          the fortitude to practice adequately and the kusala supportive
          accumulations to attain such a level!
          >

          Yes indeed! I am glad that you have not changed (brainwashed?) no
          matter how many times others rejected jhana "mastery" as nonsense.

          You are lucky to have attained at least the second jhana -- if my
          memory did not fail me, I remembered reading and congratulating you
          on your jhana experience (you were talking about it in a few posts at
          the Triplegem Website).


          Respectfully,


          Tep

          =======
          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
          > Hi, Tep (and Chris and Htoo) -
          >
          > In a message dated 5/1/05 2:20:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
          > tepsastri@y... writes:
          >
          > > There are real stories about several Thai forest monks who
          refused to
          > > take any pain killers, yet they died peacefully. My thought is that we
          > > should also train ourselves in tranquillity meditation while we still
          are in
          > >
          > > good health, before it is too late. With the regular training, when the
          last
          > >
          > > minute finally comes, we will be able to retain the mental clarity all
          the
          > > way to the rebirth moment.
          > ====================
          > It would be a great blessing to master the jhanas sufficiently to
          sail
          > through the death process with clarity and calm. May we all have the
          > fortitude to practice adequately and the kusala supportive
          accumulations to attain
          > such a level!
          >
          > With metta,
          > Howard
          >
          > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a
          bubble
          > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
          > phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra) 
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • sarah abbott
          Hi Chris, ... .... S: As Nina says, the last moments (the last javana cittas which determine rebirth) are conditioned by kamma. They are unlike all other
          Message 4 of 15 , May 2, 2005
            Hi Chris,

            --- Christine Forsyth <cforsyth1@...> wrote:
            >In my case my mother died
            > of a rapidly progressing type of bone cancer, in her final days she
            > was heavily medicated on morphine to control the pain that was
            > wracking her body. So the question, what befalls someone who dies
            > while in such a "non-lucid" state? How does their afflicted or sedated
            > mind effect their rebirth?'
            ....
            S: As Nina says, the last moments (the last javana cittas which determine
            rebirth) are conditioned by kamma. They are unlike all other javana cittas
            in this regard as I understand and I think we can never know about
            another's last moments, however much we speculate as we simply have no
            idea about the kamma involved at the time. I don't think there is any
            reason to believe that the state of lucidity or otherwise has any bearing
            in this regard. The patisandhi citta (rebirth consciousness) is again the
            result of kamma.

            The commentaries give a lot of detail on this.

            Chris, when did your mother die? I'm very sorry to hear this and would
            like to send our condolences to you and your family. I think that last
            time you mentioned her, she'd been ill in hospital, but was better and
            home, so I'm a little surprised to hear this, even though I know she was
            quite elderly and had had health problems for some time.

            Thinking of you. Please write a little more to tell us which dhamma
            reminders you are finding helpful at this time and whether we can add any
            more.
            *****
            "Ko nu haaso kimaanando
            nicca"m pajjalite sati
            Andhakaarena onaddhaa
            padiipa"m na gavessatha"

            "What is laguhter, what is joy,
            when the world is ever burning?
            Shrouded by darkness,
            would you not seek the light?" Dhp 146 (Narada transl)
            *****
            Metta,

            Sarah
            (As you know, there are many goood sutta quotes in U.P. under 'Death')
            =============================
          • Christine Forsyth
            Dear Sarah, Let me hasten to put you at ease. There is no need for concern. The post I put on dsg was quoting a Dhamma friend who was mentioning his own
            Message 5 of 15 , May 2, 2005
              Dear Sarah,

              Let me hasten to put you at ease. There is no need for concern. The
              post I put on dsg was quoting a Dhamma friend who was mentioning his
              own mother's death and also that of another friend's parent.

              My own mother is perfectly healthy though quite elderly and a little
              frail now - growing concerned about her failing sight and hearing.
              I saw her at SarahF's birthday luncheon last Saturday, where she was
              happy and enjoying herself. BTW, SarahF said to wish Jon a happy
              birthday - they share the same day, I think.

              Thank you for the dhamma reminder - death is so close but we do not
              see it - if, after an outbreath, there is no inbreath ...

              metta,
              Chris

              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott
              <sarahprocterabbott@y...> wrote:
              > Hi Chris,
              >
              > --- Christine Forsyth <cforsyth1@b...> wrote:
              > >In my case my mother died
              > > of a rapidly progressing type of bone cancer, in her final days
              she
              > > was heavily medicated on morphine to control the pain that was
              > > wracking her body. So the question, what befalls someone who
              dies
              > > while in such a "non-lucid" state? How does their afflicted or
              sedated
              > > mind effect their rebirth?'
              > ....
              > S: As Nina says, the last moments (the last javana cittas which
              determine
              > rebirth) are conditioned by kamma. They are unlike all other
              javana cittas
              > in this regard as I understand and I think we can never know about
              > another's last moments, however much we speculate as we simply
              have no
              > idea about the kamma involved at the time. I don't think there is
              any
              > reason to believe that the state of lucidity or otherwise has any
              bearing
              > in this regard. The patisandhi citta (rebirth consciousness) is
              again the
              > result of kamma.
              >
              > The commentaries give a lot of detail on this.
              >
              > Chris, when did your mother die? I'm very sorry to hear this and
              would
              > like to send our condolences to you and your family. I think that
              last
              > time you mentioned her, she'd been ill in hospital, but was better
              and
              > home, so I'm a little surprised to hear this, even though I know
              she was
              > quite elderly and had had health problems for some time.
              >
              > Thinking of you. Please write a little more to tell us which dhamma
              > reminders you are finding helpful at this time and whether we can
              add any
              > more.
              > *****
              > "Ko nu haaso kimaanando
              > nicca"m pajjalite sati
              > Andhakaarena onaddhaa
              > padiipa"m na gavessatha"
              >
              > "What is laguhter, what is joy,
              > when the world is ever burning?
              > Shrouded by darkness,
              > would you not seek the light?" Dhp 146 (Narada transl)
              > *****
              > Metta,
              >
              > Sarah
              > (As you know, there are many goood sutta quotes in U.P.
              under 'Death')
              > =============================
            • sarah abbott
              Hi Chris, ... ... S: My mistake - thanks for clarifying. Jon was reading the posts out to me and I was surprised, so when I quickly replied, I didn t see the
              Message 6 of 15 , May 2, 2005
                Hi Chris,

                --- Christine Forsyth <cforsyth1@...> wrote:
                > Dear Sarah,
                >
                > Let me hasten to put you at ease. There is no need for concern. The
                > post I put on dsg was quoting a Dhamma friend who was mentioning his
                > own mother's death and also that of another friend's parent.
                ...
                S: My mistake - thanks for clarifying. Jon was reading the posts out to me
                and I was surprised, so when I quickly replied, I didn't see the quote
                marks.

                Interested to read all the other comments too.
                S.
              • upasaka@aol.com
                Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/2/05 12:02:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Howard: ;-)) ... no ... Howard: Once - only once - I stumbled into the 2nd jhana
                Message 7 of 15 , May 2, 2005
                  Hi, Tep -

                  In a message dated 5/2/05 12:02:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                  tepsastri@... writes:

                  > Dear Howard -
                  >
                  >
                  > >Howard: It would be a great blessing to master the jhanas sufficiently
                  > to sail through the death process with clarity and calm. May we all have
                  > the fortitude to practice adequately and the kusala supportive
                  > accumulations to attain such a level!
                  > >
                  >
                  > Yes indeed! I am glad that you have not changed (brainwashed?)
                  --------------------------------
                  Howard:
                  ;-))
                  --------------------------------
                  no >
                  > matter how many times others rejected jhana "mastery" as nonsense.
                  >
                  > You are lucky to have attained at least the second jhana -- if my
                  > memory did not fail me, I remembered reading and congratulating you
                  > on your jhana experience (you were talking about it in a few posts at
                  > the Triplegem Website).
                  >
                  ---------------------------------
                  Howard:
                  Once - only once - I "stumbled" into the 2nd jhana and apparently then
                  shuttled back and forth between it and the 5th jhana, but this was just for a
                  few minutes and it lacked the stability (or "lock-in") sufficient for calling
                  it an *attaining* of jhana; it was merely sufficient for me to see the
                  reality of the jhanas, the genuine possibility of attaining them, and how glorious
                  they are. Since then the "best" that I've done in terms of meditative stability
                  seems to be attaining access concentration and momentary concentration. I do
                  think the jhanas are very important and are well worth putting forward regular
                  effort. Despite the the incredible bliss they provide, fortunately I have
                  somehow avoided a craving for them or a clinging to them.
                  ----------------------------------------

                  >
                  >
                  > Respectfully,
                  >
                  >
                  > Tep
                  >
                  ==================
                  With metta,
                  Howard

                  /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                  in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                  phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra) 


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Hi Howard, I join James in his greetings. I take an interest in an account of your different vipaakacittas, and the cittas that were the different reactions to
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 2, 2005
                    Hi Howard,
                    I join James in his greetings.
                    I take an interest in an account of your different vipaakacittas, and the
                    cittas that were the different reactions to your experiences. That is, if
                    you have time and inclination to write about this.
                    Nina
                    op 02-05-2005 05:28 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...:

                    > buddhatrue@... writes:
                    >
                    >> Hi Howard (and All),
                    >>
                    >> Nice to see you back. Hope you had a nice vacation.
                    > ====================
                    > Thank you! :-) It was a wonderful family get-together, a bit hectic
                    > but wonderful.
                  • upasaka@aol.com
                    Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/2/05 10:06:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... ===================== Thanks for the greetings! :-) There s really very little to
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 2, 2005
                      Hi, Nina -

                      In a message dated 5/2/05 10:06:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                      vangorko@... writes:

                      > Hi Howard,
                      > I join James in his greetings.
                      > I take an interest in an account of your different vipaakacittas, and the
                      > cittas that were the different reactions to your experiences. That is, if
                      > you have time and inclination to write about this.
                      > Nina
                      >
                      =====================
                      Thanks for the greetings! :-)
                      There's really very little to report. The main happiness arising
                      during the trip related to the entire immediate family (both sons, the wife and
                      daughter of one, and the girlfriend and eventual wife of the other) all being
                      together, and overly rare circumstance. Just doing things together was a
                      pleasure.
                      There was really little opportunity for much in the way of reflection,
                      study, and formal meditation, but I did maintain mindfulness of internal
                      (mental) states and bodily sensations much of the time. As to reactions, I did
                      note some (quite manageable) anxiety arising in me at times, a not-infrequent
                      occurrence when I am far from "home base". That is a form of clinging in me that
                      I'm well aware of. I'm rather consistently in touch with it and with other
                      akusala (and kusala) mindstates in "me".

                      With metta,
                      Howard

                      /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                      in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                      phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra) 


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • htootintnaing
                      ... wrote: Hi Chris, Howard and Htoo - Did you hear similar stories about the Burmese Sayadaws, Htoo? Respectfully, Tep ... Dear Tep,
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 2, 2005
                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri"
                        <tepsastri@y...>
                        wrote:

                        Hi Chris, Howard and Htoo -
                        <snip>


                        Did you hear similar stories about the
                        Burmese Sayadaws, Htoo?

                        Respectfully,

                        Tep
                        --------------------------------------------------
                        ----------------------
                        Dear Tep, Christine, Howard and All,

                        Madaya Sayadaw died with a wound infested with lice. He did not allow
                        anyone to treat his wound as there were lives. He died in peace and
                        he
                        was saluted for his 'Khanti' or endurance.

                        With Metta,

                        Htoo Naing
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Hi Howard, Thank you for your report. You did not forget the Dhamma also when away from homebase. It shows that listening, considering, discussing are indeed
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 2, 2005
                          Hi Howard,
                          Thank you for your report.
                          You did not forget the Dhamma also when away from homebase. It shows that
                          listening, considering, discussing are indeed conditions for remembering the
                          Dhamma. There is dhamma everywhere, and I am glad, I have muditaa about your
                          happiness of being together with the whole family. Even the anxiety is
                          dhamma, it is real, it is conditioned.
                          Nina.
                          op 02-05-2005 17:51 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...:>>
                          > =====================
                          > Thanks for the greetings! :-)
                          > There's really very little to report. The main happiness arising
                          > during the trip related to the entire immediate family (both sons, the wife
                          > and
                          > daughter of one, and the girlfriend and eventual wife of the other) all being
                          > together, and overly rare circumstance. Just doing things together was a
                          > pleasure.
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.