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Re: [dsg] Adinava e Nekkhamma

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  • sarah abbott
    Hi Enio, Welcome to DSG. ... …. I’m posting brief entries for each of them below from Nyantiloka’s dictionary:
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 28, 2005
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      Hi Enio,

      Welcome to DSG.
      --- Enio César <eniocaesar@...> wrote:

      > I have been searching for texts in the Internet that deal with two
      > specific subjects of anupubbi-katha: the drawbacks (adinava) and the
      > renunciation (nekkhamma).
      ….
      I’m posting brief entries for each of them below from Nyantiloka’s
      dictionary:
      http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html
      You may also like to look up other related entries in the dict.

      Also in 'Useful Posts’ in files section, look under Nekkhamma, Stages of
      insight and Gradual Training for more, I think.

      Please ask if you have any further questions/comments.
      *****
      I might as well also use this post to mention that Google searches can now
      be done on the back-up site of the DSG archives where all past messages
      can be scrolled through/downloaded/searched easily:

      http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/

      I tested it out for ‘spiral+Howard’ (my default test-run search;-)) and it
      works beautifully.

      Because the archives are saved in lots of a 1000, you are given extracts
      from a ‘1000 lot’, so you still need to use ctrl+F for say ‘spiral’ and
      then keep clicking on ‘next’for high-lighted words.

      I believe the archives are pretty well up-to-date.
      *****
      Enio, why not tell us a bit more about your interest in these terms and
      any connections. Do you live in Italy? Hope to hear any more from you.

      Metta,

      Sarah
      ======

      1.ádínavánupassaná-ñána
      .....
      'knowledge consisting in contemplation of misery',
      is one of the 8 kinds of insight (vipassaná) that form the 'purification
      of the knowledge and vision of the path-progress (s. visuddhi, VI. 4).
      It is further one of the 18 chief kinds of insight (s. vipassaná).
      ***
      2.ánupubbí-kathá
      .....
      'gradual instruction', progressive sermon; given by the Buddha when it was
      necessary to prepare first the listener's mind before speaking to him on
      the advanced teaching of the Four Noble Truths. The stock passage (e.g. D.
      3; D 14; M. 56) runs as follows:
      "Then the Blessed One gave him a gradual instruction - that is to say, he
      spoke on liberality ('giving', dána), on moral conduct (síla) and on the
      heaven (sagga); he explained the peril, the vanity and the depravity of
      sensual pleasures, and the advantage of renunciation. When the Blessed One
      perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, pliant, free from
      obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted
      teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhánam sámukkamsiká desaná), that
      is:
      • suffering,
      • its cause,
      • its ceasing,
      • and the path."
      ***
      3.nekkhamma
      .....
      'freedom from sensual lust', renunciation.
      Though apparently from nir +  kram, 'to go forth (into the
      homeless state of a monk)', this term is in the Páli texts nevertheless
      used as if it were derived from káma, lust, and always as an antonym to
      káma. It is one of the perfections (s. páramí).
      N. sankappa, thought free from lust, or thought of renunciation, is one of
      the 3 kinds of right thought (sammá-sankappa), the 2nd link of the Noble
      Eightfold Path (s. magga, 2), its antonym being kámasankappa, lustful
      thought.
      ======================
    • Enio César
      Hello, Sarah! Thank you very very much for your help! I am interested to learn about the teachings of the Buddha. As I am still a beginner, I ve been using the
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 1, 2005
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        Hello, Sarah!

        Thank you very very much for your help!

        I am interested to learn about the teachings of the Buddha. As I am still a beginner, I've been using the anupubbi-katha to guide my studies, like it is exposed in the "Access to Insight".

        I don't live in Italy, I am brazilian. But just as Italy, Brazil is a christian country. Here, Dhamma materials are obviously difficult to find. The few titles published are very superficial, basically about Dalai Lama. Because of it, I've been studying with some books donated by the "The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation" and with texts found in the web. However, some topics of the anupubbi-katha aren't very explored, as adinava and nekkhamma, for instance.

        With Metta,

        Enio Cesar.



        -----Mensagem Original-----
        De: sarah abbott
        Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
        Enviada em: terça-feira, 1 de março de 2005 04:35
        Assunto: Re: [dsg] Adinava e Nekkhamma



        Hi Enio,

        Welcome to DSG.
        --- Enio César <eniocaesar@...> wrote:

        > I have been searching for texts in the Internet that deal with two
        > specific subjects of anupubbi-katha: the drawbacks (adinava) and the
        > renunciation (nekkhamma).
        ..
        I'm posting brief entries for each of them below from Nyantiloka's
        dictionary:
        http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html
        You may also like to look up other related entries in the dict.

        <....>
      • sarah abbott
        Hi Enio, ... ... S: Oh, you re welcome. Pls ask for any help anytime. ... ... S: I d be glad if you d elaborate further on this gradual instruction as
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 1, 2005
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          Hi Enio,

          --- Enio César <eniocaesar@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hello, Sarah!
          >
          > Thank you very very much for your help!
          ...
          S: Oh, you're welcome. Pls ask for any help anytime.
          ....
          > I am interested to learn about the teachings of the Buddha. As I am
          > still a beginner, I've been using the anupubbi-katha to guide my
          > studies, like it is exposed in the "Access to Insight".
          ...
          S: I'd be glad if you'd elaborate further on this 'gradual instruction' as
          exposed in ati or as you understand it now. I'd like to understand more
          about what you mean when you say you use it to guide your studies.
          ...

          > I don't live in Italy, I am brazilian.
          ...
          S: Apologies. Enio Cesar sounded very Italian to me in my ignorance!

          We have Brazilian members that come and go here - if you bump into any of
          them, pls tell them they're missed!
          ...
          >But just as Italy, Brazil is a
          > christian country. Here, Dhamma materials are obviously difficult to
          > find. The few titles published are very superficial, basically about
          > Dalai Lama. Because of it, I've been studying with some books donated by
          > the "The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation" and with
          > texts found in the web. However, some topics of the anupubbi-katha
          > aren't very explored, as adinava and nekkhamma, for instance.
          ...
          S: I understand, another Brazilian said the same. I'd also like to hear
          more about why you have a particular interest in these topics and which
          aspects of the Dhamma you're exploring.

          Metta,

          Sarah
          ======
        • Enio César
          Hi, Sarah, You re so kind! It s not necessary to apologise... you didn t make any mistake. Both names Enio and Cesar exists in Italian and in Portuguese. I
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 4, 2005
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            Hi, Sarah,

            You're so kind! It's not necessary to apologise... you didn't make any mistake. Both names "Enio" and "Cesar" exists in Italian and in Portuguese. I think the only difference is that, in italian, is "Ennio".

            The Buddhist teachings are very vast. It doesn't seem to be possible to study them without a route. So, to initiate my studies, I chose the route given by the Buddha Himself.

            The site "Access to Insight" has a Brazilian version "Acesso ao Insight", where the original site in English has been translating into Portuguese. From there I copied the Portuguese version of the anupubbi-katha and now I am searching material about each topic of it. It's not an easy task, because my English is really very bad and sometimes it's not easy to distinguish the different views of the various vehicles and schools.

            I have been working first with the concepts of each topic of the anupubbi-katha, complementing them with clarifying texts found on the web. These two topics I left last, because it's not easy to find material about them.

            With Metta!

            Enio César

            -----Mensagem Original-----
            De: sarah abbott
            Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
            Enviada em: quarta-feira, 2 de março de 2005 03:57
            Assunto: Re: [dsg] Adinava e Nekkhamma
          • sarah abbott
            Hi Enio, ... ... ... S: You remind me about Michael Beisert (sp?) who runs the Brazilian site. He was a very active member here for a while and I really
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 8, 2005
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              Hi Enio,

              --- Enio César <eniocaesar@...> wrote:
              <...>
              > The Buddhist teachings are very vast. It doesn't seem to be possible to
              > study them without a route. So, to initiate my studies, I chose the
              > route given by the Buddha Himself.
              > The site "Access to Insight" has a Brazilian version "Acesso ao
              > Insight", where the original site in English has been translating into
              > Portuguese. From there I copied the Portuguese version of the
              > anupubbi-katha and now I am searching material about each topic of it.
              > It's not an easy task, because my English is really very bad and
              > sometimes it's not easy to distinguish the different views of the
              > various vehicles and schools.
              ...
              S: You remind me about Michael Beisert (sp?) who runs the Brazilian site.
              He was a very active member here for a while and I really enjoyed my
              discussions with him. We ended up in the Kathavatthu (Points of
              Controversy). If you have any contact, please tell him he's missed and
              he'll probably tell you about all our fixed views;-).

              Your English seems good. Could you perhaps raise one of these topics from
              anupubbi-katha (gradual way) at a time with a mention of the materials you
              have. We could then discuss each one and add more material, perhaps.

              I'm still trying to understand what it is you're doing exactly, so pls
              elaborate. Sounds an interesting project. Just a simple phrase like 'draw
              near' to the teacher or teachings can carry a deep meaning. Is this the
              kind of thing?
              ...
              > I have been working first with the concepts of each topic of the
              > anupubbi-katha, complementing them with clarifying texts found on the
              > web. These two topics I left last, because it's not easy to find
              > material about them.
              ...
              As, I said, let's make it more of a joint project. I'm sure some of the
              knowledgable friends here will be happy to give links or references to
              further texts if you can briefly introduce each topic. You'll be doing us
              all a favour.

              Metta,

              Sarah
              =====
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Hi Sarah and Enio, A good idea. The Buddha gave a gradual teaching to general Siiha, beginning to help him see the danger of akusala and the benefit of kusala.
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 8, 2005
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                Hi Sarah and Enio,
                A good idea.
                The Buddha gave a gradual teaching to general Siiha, beginning to help him
                see the danger of akusala and the benefit of kusala. It shows the Buddha's
                compassion, to be so thoughtful of what a person can take in first. Only
                later on he came to the deep teaching.
                It is good to reflect on this and apply in our life all these points the
                Buddha gave as a gradual teaching.
                Enio, I am still missing Michael, tell him.
                Nina.
                op 08-03-2005 10:38 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...:

                > I have been working first with the concepts of each topic of the
                >> anupubbi-katha, complementing them with clarifying texts found on the
                >> web. These two topics I left last, because it's not easy to find
                >> material about them.
                > ...
                > As, I said, let's make it more of a joint project. I'm sure some of the
                > knowledgable friends here will be happy to give links or references to
                > further texts if you can briefly introduce each topic. You'll be doing us
                > all a favour.
              • Enio César
                Dear Sara and Nina, I sent an email to the Michael, telling him that his absence has being felt in this list. I am sure he will answer you soon! I loved the
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 10, 2005
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                  Dear Sara and Nina,

                  I sent an email to the Michael, telling him that his absence has being felt in this list. I am sure he will answer you soon!

                  I loved the idea to make public the topic-to-topic discussion about the gradual teaching. However, I'm afraid that it will not be possible, because all the texts are already in Portuguese and I would spend too much time to translate them to English (and my translations are always terrible!).

                  I will talk about it with Michael. He's always very busy, but maybe he would help me to translate the texts and make this public discussion possible, in order to improve the texts and to correct my errors of interpretation or translation.

                  I'll be back soon!

                  With Metta!

                  Enio César.


                  -----Mensagem Original-----
                  De: Nina van Gorkom
                  Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
                  Enviada em: terça-feira, 8 de março de 2005 16:12
                  Assunto: Re: [dsg] Adinava e Nekkhamma



                  Hi Sarah and Enio,
                  A good idea.
                  The Buddha gave a gradual teaching to general Siiha, beginning to help him
                  see the danger of akusala and the benefit of kusala. It shows the Buddha's
                  compassion, to be so thoughtful of what a person can take in first. Only
                  later on he came to the deep teaching.
                  It is good to reflect on this and apply in our life all these points the
                  Buddha gave as a gradual teaching.
                  Enio, I am still missing Michael, tell him.
                  <....>
                • sarah abbott
                  Dear Enio, ... ... S: thanks for that. I know he s busy with his website and travels a lot too. ... ... S: You could just give your comments with the
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 14, 2005
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                    Dear Enio,

                    --- Enio César <eniocaesar@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Sara and Nina,
                    >
                    > I sent an email to the Michael, telling him that his absence has being
                    > felt in this list. I am sure he will answer you soon!
                    ...
                    S: thanks for that. I know he's busy with his website and travels a lot
                    too.
                    ...
                    > I loved the idea to make public the topic-to-topic discussion about the
                    > gradual teaching. However, I'm afraid that it will not be possible,
                    > because all the texts are already in Portuguese and I would spend too
                    > much time to translate them to English (and my translations are always
                    > terrible!).
                    ...
                    S: You could just give your comments with the references and we could help
                    to find them. Also, you may find the suttas on the English ATI site. I'm
                    sure many people here will be happy to help with this.
                    ...
                    > I will talk about it with Michael. He's always very busy, but maybe he
                    > would help me to translate the texts and make this public discussion
                    > possible, in order to improve the texts and to correct my errors of
                    > interpretation or translation.
                    ...
                    S: Anyway that works will be good. You could also just use a line or two
                    at a time with your own translation and then we can discuss further. of
                    most interest are your own comments, of course.

                    I thought of you when I posted the following extract from Nina's book,
                    'Cetasikas' on nekkhama. Do you have any comments?

                    "One may wonder whether nekkhamma, renunciation, is the same
                    as retirement from worldly life and whether it therefore pertains
                    in particular to monks. Although a monk’s life should be a life of
                    contentment with little, he may not be cultivating nekkhamma.
                    Whoever has not eradicated attachment to sense objects has still
                    conditions for “thought of sense-pleasures”, no matter whether he
                    is a monk or a layman. When a monk receives delicious almsfood,
                    is attachment not likely to arise?

                    There are many degrees of nekkhamma and not only monks
                    should cultivate it, but laypeople as well. Actually, all kusala
                    dhammas are nekkhamma 1. When we perform dåna, observe
                    síla or apply ourselves to mental development, we are at such
                    moments not absorbed in sense-pleasures, there is renunciation."
                    ****
                    Metta,

                    Sarah
                    ========
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