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"Develop!"

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  • christine_forsyth
    Hello all, (Shakti, Azita, Tom), After leaving Kolcatta with the group, and spending one night in Bangkok, Azita and I had breakfast with Shakti and her
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 2, 2004
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      Hello all, (Shakti, Azita, Tom),

      After leaving Kolcatta with the group, and spending one night in
      Bangkok, Azita and I had breakfast with Shakti and her husband Tom.

      The discussion turned to the meaning of the word "develop" (Shakti
      recalled spending time at a Retreat misunderstanding the leaders'
      accent (Goenka?) and hearing 'develop' as 'double-up' - so she spent
      some days trying to puzzle out how to 'double-up' her wisdom).

      Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of anatta
      could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our discussion
      included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the two
      truths. Half the participants took the 'Buddha meant us to DO
      something' standpoint and the other half took the ... well, I'm not
      able to articulate what they explained exactly ... so I guess that
      let's you know which half I was in. :-) And Azita tried her best
      later to explain to me clearly and succinctly but maybe I was
      blinded by moha (quite probable) - so that also lets you know which
      half she was in. :-) And my lips are sealed as to the rest. :-)

      For me, 'develop' implies an instruction from the Buddha to 'do'
      something. If he told us to do it, he must have meant just that.
      Take action.
      And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing -
      Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the
      Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co-
      associates in the holy life"
      Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of
      death" AN. VI.19
      Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19
      Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with directed
      thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63

      Any thoughts?

      metta and peace,
      Christine
      ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
    • Ajahn Jose
      Dear Christine, when we the monks are instructed by other senior monks and we are studying the word develops means to try to achieve or complete a task. Your
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 2, 2004
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        Dear Christine, when we the monks are instructed by other senior monks and we are studying the word develops means to try to achieve or complete a task. Your interpretation is correct and also the suttras that you mention the word develops is correct. It means we should try to do something. Metta. Ajahn Jose

        christine_forsyth <cforsyth1@...> wrote:

        Hello all, (Shakti, Azita, Tom),

        After leaving Kolcatta with the group, and spending one night in
        Bangkok, Azita and I had breakfast with Shakti and her husband Tom.

        The discussion turned to the meaning of the word "develop" (Shakti
        recalled spending time at a Retreat misunderstanding the leaders'
        accent (Goenka?) and hearing 'develop' as 'double-up' - so she spent
        some days trying to puzzle out how to 'double-up' her wisdom).

        Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of anatta
        could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our discussion
        included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the two
        truths. Half the participants took the 'Buddha meant us to DO
        something' standpoint and the other half took the ... well, I'm not
        able to articulate what they explained exactly ... so I guess that
        let's you know which half I was in. :-) And Azita tried her best
        later to explain to me clearly and succinctly but maybe I was
        blinded by moha (quite probable) - so that also lets you know which
        half she was in. :-) And my lips are sealed as to the rest. :-)

        For me, 'develop' implies an instruction from the Buddha to 'do'
        something. If he told us to do it, he must have meant just that.
        Take action.
        And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing -
        Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the
        Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co-
        associates in the holy life"
        Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of
        death" AN. VI.19
        Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19
        Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with directed
        thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63

        Any thoughts?

        metta and peace,
        Christine
        ---The trouble is that you think you have time---






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      • robmoult
        Hi Christine, ... discussion ... two ... not ... which ... directed ... I think I understand the issue. As you know, some DSG members are against formal
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 3, 2004
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          Hi Christine,

          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth"
          <cforsyth1@b...> wrote:
          > Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of anatta
          > could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our
          discussion
          > included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the
          two
          > truths. Half the participants took the 'Buddha meant us to DO
          > something' standpoint and the other half took the ... well, I'm
          not
          > able to articulate what they explained exactly ... so I guess that
          > let's you know which half I was in. :-) And Azita tried her best
          > later to explain to me clearly and succinctly but maybe I was
          > blinded by moha (quite probable) - so that also lets you know
          which
          > half she was in. :-) And my lips are sealed as to the rest. :-)
          >
          > For me, 'develop' implies an instruction from the Buddha to 'do'
          > something. If he told us to do it, he must have meant just that.
          > Take action.
          > And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing -
          > Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the
          > Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co-
          > associates in the holy life"
          > Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of
          > death" AN. VI.19
          > Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19
          > Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with
          directed
          > thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63
          >
          > Any thoughts?

          I think I understand the issue. As you know, some DSG members are
          against "formal meditation" as they feel that this reinforces the
          idea of a self that has control. The Buddha's exhortations to "do
          this" or "do not do that" can also be misinterpreted as suggesting
          that there is a self that has control.

          Quite often, I recite the five precepts, the first of which
          is "Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami". This is not
          translated as "Do not kill"; the literal translation of this precept
          is "I undertake the training rule to abstain from the taking of
          life." The precepts are "rules of training" (sikkhapada).

          The mind cannot be "controlled", but it is "trainable".

          Hope this helps.

          Metta,
          Rob M :-)
        • plnao
          Hi Christine Welcome back. Very interesting post! I m sure it will generate lots of discussion. ... For what it s worth, I *do* feel we can be active in making
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 3, 2004
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            Hi Christine

            Welcome back.

            Very interesting post! I'm sure it will generate lots of discussion.

            > Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of anatta
            > could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our discussion
            > included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the two
            > truths. Half the participants took the 'Buddha meant us to DO
            > something' standpoint and the other half took the ... well, I'm not
            > able to articulate what they explained exactly ... so I guess that
            > let's you know which half I was in. :-)

            For what it's worth, I *do* feel we can be active in making wholesome
            changes in our lives, but it is also perfectly reasonable to use verbs
            without
            an active subject to talk about what is going on.

            Instead of saying "I generate loving kindness" I would much rather say
            "there is loving kindness arising " Instead of saying "I abstain from
            harmful thoughts", "there is abstaining from harmful thoughts arising "
            I find that this clicks with my experience of thing, the way these things
            arise beyond my control. That isn't a theoretical statement - it's plain and
            clear from examining of my experience.

            Because these kind of passive sentences are awkward sounding in
            English (they are natural in Japanese language, for example, in which
            the subject is often left out and the verb stands on its own) I now tend
            to say "panna" does this or that. Panna becomes the actor. I'm not
            really comfortable with that, either. But there is no other option in
            English, really.

            So I let it go. I use "panna knows" and don't worry about it.
            The main thing is what is experienced/insighted in daily life. This
            expereince seems to be showing me that the notion of being able to do
            something in a consistently intentional way
            (other than mechanical things such as sitting in a certain way, breathing in
            a certain way)
            just doesn't match reality. We worldlings *cannot* control our thoughts, for
            example, no matter
            what it says in whatver Sutta. To try to do so is courting madness. The
            Buddha
            didn't want to drive us insane, he wanted to liberate us. Why on earth
            would he
            ask us to force our mind in such an unnatural way? That's what I can't
            understand. So I let go of it.

            It is baffling and paradoxical. The crossing the flood
            Sutta. Not by moving forward, not by standing still. The Buddha used this
            paradox
            to gently discourage us from trying to hard to answer questions like you've
            asked,
            maybe? It is not *doing* and it is not passiveness either. It is somewhere
            in between
            there, and we won't know until we are enlightened? Just thinking out loud
            here.


            > For me, 'develop' implies an instruction from the Buddha to 'do'
            > something. If he told us to do it, he must have meant just that.
            > Take action.
            > And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing -
            > Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the
            > Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co-
            > associates in the holy life"
            > Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of
            > death" AN. VI.19
            > Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19
            > Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with directed
            > thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63

            Yes, we should develop these things, of course, but I don't take the above
            passages to mean we should go about it in a "the Buddha said I should do it
            so I will do it starting today" kind of way.
            I mean, we *should* develop our immunity system if we want to stay healthy,
            but how do we do that? We *should* love our parents, but what good does it
            do being told that if the love doesn't arise? It cannot be done by will
            power or intention.
            We *should* develop wisdom, but how do we do that
            in an intentional way? Surely trying to do so would be a recipe for self
            becoming
            fortified!

            A long post without much of substance, as usual. It seems that now that the
            gang
            is back from India I am back to my babbling ways. Conditions at work.

            Metta,
            Phil
          • kenhowardau
            Hi Christine, A big (and somewhat relieved) welcome back to you and your fellow travellers! ... C: Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 3, 2004
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              Hi Christine,

              A big (and somewhat relieved) welcome back to you and your fellow
              travellers!

              ---------------
              C: > Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of
              anatta could still allow some quality could be 'developed'.
              ---------------

              I think that's an excellent topic for conversation. Did some people
              think anatta changed less than everything?

              I'd like to know what, if anything, can be understood in the same
              way before and after the acceptance (as fact) of anatta.

              ----------------------
              C: > Our discussion included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no
              control, and the two truths. Half the participants took the 'Buddha
              meant us to DO something' standpoint
              ----------------------

              There's nothing wrong with that. But our understanding of "DO
              something" can never be the same after accepting the fact of anatta,
              can it?

              -------------------------------
              C: > and the other half took the ... well, I'm not able to
              articulate what they explained exactly ... so I guess that let's you
              know which half I was in. :-)
              -------------------------------

              I'm not sure I follow. Did one half of the participants accept the
              doctrine of anatta and the other half deny it? (I'm being satirical,
              in case you hadn't noticed.) :-)

              ---------------------------
              C: > And Azita tried her best later to explain to me clearly and
              succinctly but maybe I was blinded by moha (quite probable) - so
              that also lets you know which half she was in. :-) And my lips are
              sealed as to the rest. :-)
              ---------------------------

              That means Azita explained paramattha dhammas. One or more others,
              it would seem, were clinging to conventional reality. There is no
              shame in that, but is it a luxury we can afford?

              ----------------------
              C: > For me, 'develop' implies an instruction from the Buddha
              to 'do' something. If he told us to do it, he must have meant just
              that. Take action.
              ----------------------

              How does that understanding differ from the understanding you had
              before you 'accepted' the fact of anatta? (Note the poignantly
              placed shock quotes. More satire!)

              --------------------
              C: > And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing -
              Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the
              Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co-
              associates in the holy life"
              Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of
              death" AN. VI.19
              Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19
              Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with directed
              thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63

              Any thoughts?
              ---------------------

              I am tempted to say; "Wait until our Cooran meeting (3 to 5
              December), and we will set you straight," but that would be denying
              the fact of anatta: There are only the paramattha dhammas of the
              present moment. Accept that now or never!

              Kind regards,
              Ken H
            • kenhowardau
              Dear Rob M, ... against formal meditation as they feel that this reinforces the idea of a self that has control. The Buddha s exhortations to do this or
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 3, 2004
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                Dear Rob M,

                You wrote to Christine:
                ---------------------------
                > I think I understand the issue. As you know, some DSG members are
                against "formal meditation" as they feel that this reinforces the
                idea of a self that has control. The Buddha's exhortations to "do
                this" or "do not do that" can also be misinterpreted as suggesting
                that there is a self that has control. >
                ----------------------------

                I agree, but there is a big difference between "formal meditation"
                and "the Buddha's exhortations" isn't there? The former is not
                mentioned anywhere in the Pali Canon as being a factor for
                enlightenment, but the latter is. (Or at least, "hearing,
                considering and putting them into practice" is mentioned.)

                I am tempted to say I would practise formal meditation if I
                understood the Buddha's exhortations to include, "Practise formal
                meditation!" However, it is unthinkable that he would have said such
                a thing. All of his actual exhortations deny the efficacy of formal
                meditation.

                ------------------
                RM: > Quite often, I recite the five precepts, the first of which
                is "Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami". This is not
                translated as "Do not kill"; the literal translation of this precept
                is "I undertake the training rule to abstain from the taking of
                life." >
                ------------------

                Recitation, for the purposes of remembering and understanding, is
                fundamentally different from formal practice, don't you agree? Even
                though we will often recite wrongly (with lobha, dosa or moha), we
                are unlikely to do so with wrong view. Formal practice, on the
                other hand, seems to be inseparable from wrong view. It only appeals
                to a mind that thinks dhammas can be controlled.

                -----------------------------------
                RM: > The precepts are "rules of training" (sikkhapada).
                The mind cannot be "controlled", but it is "trainable". >
                -----------------------------------

                Maybe so, Rob, but you're sailing close to the wind. A formal
                practice by any other name would smell as wrong-viewish. :-)

                Ken H


                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hi Christine,
                >
                > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth"
                > <cforsyth1@b...> wrote:
                > > Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of
                anatta
                > > could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our
                > discussion
                > > included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the
                > two
              • sarah abbott
                Hi Chris (& Shakti), I’m glad you made it home safely. How’s Rusty? Concerned to hear. I m being given lots of potions for a lingering cough from the dust
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 4, 2004
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                  Hi Chris (& Shakti),

                  I’m glad you made it home safely. How’s Rusty? Concerned to hear. I'm
                  being given lots of potions for a lingering cough from the dust and last
                  night as I went for a walk, it seemed I could still smell India;-)
                  Reminded me of Nori's phantom limb posts and how sanna (memory/perception)
                  can play tricks. Jon was back in the office on Monday morning, but
                  fortunately I can rest. How about you?
                  ....
                  C:> For me, 'develop' implies an instruction from the Buddha to 'do'
                  > something. If he told us to do it, he must have meant just that.
                  > Take action.
                  > And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing -
                  > Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the
                  > Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co-
                  > associates in the holy life"
                  > Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of
                  > death" AN. VI.19
                  > Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19
                  > Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with directed
                  > thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63
                  >
                  > Any thoughts?
                  ….
                  S: I’ve enjoyed reading the other thoughts. I think the question is who or
                  what develops. What do you think? We can remind each other to develop
                  skilful states and reflect on the Buddha’s admonitions above with right
                  and wrong understanding, don’t you think?

                  ‘Better to have no understanding than wrong understanding’ was a comment
                  we discussed in Sikkhim….

                  Looking forward (with lobha like Phil) to any more of your descriptive
                  posts from your impressions or notes of discussion points of special
                  interest such as in Savatthi, in the hotel garden when we skipped
                  Anathapindika’s house – ‘just a visible object’. Or anything else of
                  interest or special reflection too.

                  Favourite suttas – good selections and comments by Shakti, Howard and TG.

                  For me right now, it has to be the first sermon, the Dhamma Chakka
                  Pavattana Sutta. Jon, Nina and I recited it most evenings on the bus and I
                  reflected on the marvel of the Buddha’s sharing of these universal truths
                  with us – not subject to time, place, culture, sex, realm or any other
                  limitations. Whether we appreciate them or not, they include the entire
                  teachings which the wise could fully penetrate on the spot at Savatthi.

                  (Shakti, good to see you on list – pls share any more of your reflections
                  on anatta or other topics too).

                  Metta,

                  Sarah
                  p.s I’ll try sometime to share just a few selected pics in the
                  album,temporarily I expect. Hope others do the same. Azita - I think my
                  best one is of you with the python, smiling happily.
                  ======================










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                • christine_forsyth
                  Hello Sarah, all, Just a quick note. Rusty has improved, thank you for asking.:-) He still has no voice - so I expect he had some sort of stroke as well and
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 4, 2004
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                    Hello Sarah, all,

                    Just a quick note. Rusty has improved, thank you for asking.:-) He
                    still has no voice - so I expect he had some sort of stroke as well
                    and is now aphasic. His medication has been reduced and he is much
                    more animated. Whereas before he would give gentle growls and whines
                    to attract my attention when I was absorbed in reading or the
                    internet, now he taps me with his paw or relies on the Power of the
                    Immovable Gaze. There is some delay in his nerves relaying
                    information to the brain - his back legs tend to sink towards the
                    floor until he suddenly realises and stands straight up again.

                    The awareness of his mortality is now ever present, as it should be
                    for all of us. Dukkha. But I won't let that spoil the present moment.

                    metta and peace,
                    Christine
                    ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
                  • christine_forsyth
                    Dear Bhante, :-) Thank you for this post. I am suffering a few withdrawal symptoms after having access to Dhamma instruction for the two weeks I was in
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 5, 2004
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                      Dear Bhante, :-)

                      Thank you for this post. I am suffering a few withdrawal symptoms
                      after having access to Dhamma instruction for the two weeks I was in
                      India. How fortunate you are to have daily access to other monks!
                      I hope you are continuing to be well, and that your work in the
                      Cross is productive.

                      With metta and respect,
                      Christine
                      ---The trouble is that you think you have time---

                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ajahn Jose <ajahnjose@y...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Christine, when we the monks are instructed by other senior
                      monks and we are studying the word develops means to try to achieve
                      or complete a task. Your interpretation is correct and also the
                      suttras that you mention the word develops is correct. It means we
                      should try to do something. Metta. Ajahn Jose
                    • christine_forsyth
                      Hello Rob M, You say: The mind cannot be controlled , but it is trainable . I like that! and it does help :-) Makes me think of accumulations . (And
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 5, 2004
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                        Hello Rob M,

                        You say: "The mind cannot be "controlled", but it is "trainable"."
                        I like that! and it does help :-) Makes me think
                        of 'accumulations'. (And that's Politically Correct, eh KenH? )

                        metta and peace,
                        Christine
                        ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Christine,

                        > I think I understand the issue. As you know, some DSG members are
                        > against "formal meditation" as they feel that this reinforces the
                        > idea of a self that has control. The Buddha's exhortations to "do
                        > this" or "do not do that" can also be misinterpreted as suggesting
                        > that there is a self that has control.
                        >
                        > Quite often, I recite the five precepts, the first of which
                        > is "Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami". This is not
                        > translated as "Do not kill"; the literal translation of this
                        precept
                        > is "I undertake the training rule to abstain from the taking of
                        > life." The precepts are "rules of training" (sikkhapada).
                        >
                        > The mind cannot be "controlled", but it is "trainable".
                        >
                        > Hope this helps.
                        >
                        > Metta,
                        > Rob M :-)
                      • christine_forsyth
                        Hello Phil, Thank you for the welcome back, and thanks for what you call your babbling ways - I don t find them without substance. :-) I agree that develop
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 5, 2004
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                          Hello Phil,

                          Thank you for the welcome back, and thanks for what you call your
                          babbling ways - I don't find them without substance. :-) I agree
                          that 'develop' is baffling and paradoxical ... and toss in
                          exasperating for good measure.
                          I like your last paragraph as well - 'we *should* develop our
                          immunity system if we want to stay healthy,
                          but how do we do that? We *should* love our parents, but what good
                          does it
                          do being told that if the love doesn't arise? It cannot be done by
                          will
                          power or intention.We *should* develop wisdom, but how do we do that
                          in an intentional way?' Food for thought there.

                          metta and peace,
                          Christine
                          ---The trouble is that you think you have time---

                          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" <plnao@j...> wrote:
                        • christine_forsyth
                          Hello KenH, Thank you for your welcome back - but why the relief? Is there something you aren t telling us? :-) Exasperating man! Before I knew about anatta
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 5, 2004
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                            Hello KenH,

                            Thank you for your welcome back - but why the relief? Is there
                            something you aren't telling us? :-)
                            Exasperating man! Before I knew about anatta I planned and
                            performed actions. Now that 'I' know about anatta, 'I' still plan
                            and perform actions. 'Who' was it that scrimped and saved, and
                            planned, and went to India and back? So - why can't I 'develop
                            reverence and suaveness' [never considered myself suave - what a
                            funny translation];mindfulness of death; what is skilful; or
                            concentration with directed thought and evaluation?
                            Looking forward to Cooran -and seeing just who sets whom straight.:-)

                            metta and peace,
                            Christine
                            ---The trouble is that you think you have time---

                            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau"
                            SNIP
                            > C: > And in sutta after sutta, he used just that phrasing -
                            > Gulissaani Sutta 'A forest dwelling Bhikkhu living with the
                            > Community should develop reverence and suaveness towards co-
                            > associates in the holy life"
                            > Maranassati Sutta "Therefore you should develop mindfulness of
                            > death" AN. VI.19
                            > Kusala Sutta "Develop what is skillful" AN II.19
                            > Sankhitta Sutta "You should develop this concentration with
                            directed
                            > thought and eveluation" AN VIII.63
                            >
                            > Any thoughts?
                            > ---------------------
                            >
                            > I am tempted to say; "Wait until our Cooran meeting (3 to 5
                            > December), and we will set you straight," but that would be
                            denying
                            > the fact of anatta: There are only the paramattha dhammas of the
                            > present moment. Accept that now or never!
                            >
                            > Kind regards,
                            > Ken H
                          • christine_forsyth
                            Hello Sarah, I hope you are getting over your cough by now, and that Jon wasn t too exhausted by going straight back to work. It wasn t the smells of India
                            Message 13 of 22 , Nov 5, 2004
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                              Hello Sarah,

                              I hope you are getting over your cough by now, and that Jon wasn't
                              too exhausted by going straight back to work.
                              It wasn't the smells of India that remained - I think Azita and I
                              are in need of a little therapy - we thought Bangkok smelled
                              wonderful and was in a pristine condition after leaving Bihar. :-)

                              I'm going through my trip diary at the moment and am wishing I
                              hadn't written it up in bed, in pencil, last thing at night - I
                              should know I'm almost incoherent by then! But if I find anything
                              that may be of interest, I'll post it. I tend to record the most
                              unimportant things. e.g. I had two pages about my experience on the
                              first day with a persistent young male beggar who cycled from site
                              to site and was always waiting for me when the bus pulled up. He
                              kept following me around and repeating, in front of others, about
                              how I had been 'so nice to him the night before' and 'what had he
                              done wrong that I was now ignoring him'. It did sound a little
                              odd. :-( I can only assume that I must have said 'thank you' on
                              the first night at the airport, if he was one of the luggage
                              handlers. I was almost ready to desert and return to Oz until
                              Shakti, with her wider experience of India, firmly sorted him out.
                              However, he did state in an intimidating way that I would be born
                              deaf and dumb in the next life. Can't think of the dhamma focus
                              here, unless it was 'no -control' - the inability to make dosa go
                              and metta rise.
                              But 'control' is not the same as 'develop', is it?

                              metta and peace,
                              Christine
                              ---The trouble is that you think you have time---

                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott
                            • plnao
                              Hi Christine, and all ... Of course we are encouraged by the sutta in which the Buddha says that we should be baffled, or perplexed, or whatever the word is
                              Message 14 of 22 , Nov 5, 2004
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                                Hi Christine, and all

                                >I agree
                                > that 'develop' is baffling and paradoxical ... and toss in
                                > exasperating for good measure.

                                Of course we are encouraged by the sutta in which the Buddha says
                                that we should be baffled, or perplexed, or whatever the word is that
                                is used - becuase the Dhamma is so deep, so difficult to reason one's way
                                through. I find readily letting go of the parts I don't get yet is part and
                                parcel
                                of Dhamma study. As is knowing when it is the right time to bear down
                                a bit on a difficult point. More middle way.
                                At one point Nina posted about soemthing like this -
                                the wholesomeness of postponing understanding. There was a Pali term for it,
                                I think.
                                Does anyone remember what I'm referring to? I'll never be able to find it
                                now.

                                I also wonder if the Perfection of renunciation doesn't involve renouncing
                                our
                                deep-rooted tendency to need to figure everything out through the power
                                of the rational mind. As does the Perfection of patience, of course.

                                Metta,
                                Phil
                              • rjkjp1
                                ... anatta ... discussion ... two ... ========== This is a letter I wrote to Bruce and old member of dsg. He wanted to know about develop and why Khun Sujin
                                Message 15 of 22 , Nov 5, 2004
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                                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth"
                                  <cforsyth1@b...> wrote:
                                  > > Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of
                                  anatta
                                  > could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our
                                  discussion
                                  > included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the
                                  two
                                  > truths.
                                  ==========
                                  This is a letter I wrote to Bruce and old member of dsg.
                                  He wanted to know about develop and why Khun Sujin says 'develop
                                  understanding' so often:

                                  You wrote "that's where i get stuck...if all dhammas except
                                  nibbana
                                  > are
                                  > conditioned (i'm going on saddha with this, of course), then
                                  > thinking one
                                  > can develop anything seems like an exercise in
                                  > micchaditthi....

                                  _________________
                                  Good point. I think it depends on the thinking. If we have the
                                  idea of "I can do it", then we are likely to be caught in self
                                  view. Or we think we can manufacture sati by effort or good
                                  intention - self. But there can be wisdom - not us- that sees
                                  the danger in samasara and thus there is naturally effort that
                                  arises with that understanding. It is subtle: often we slip into
                                  self view; either towards the freewill end of the continuum or
                                  towrds the fatalistic end that thinks nothing can be done.

                                  ____________________________

                                  >
                                  > can the path be developed? or do we just leave it up to (for
                                  > lack of a
                                  > better f-word) "fate"? ""
                                  __________________
                                  Fate implies a preordained outcome. In that case whether we did
                                  this that or the other nothing would make a thread of
                                  difference. We could go out and kill and pillage and nothing
                                  would have any effect and we would all get enlightened or not
                                  get enlightened depending on our "fate". This is not what the
                                  Buddha taught. He explained in detail many different conditions.
                                  It is true that some are past conditions but there are also
                                  present ones thus it is not fatalism. Both the idea of fatalism
                                  and the idea of freewill are bound up in self view - a self who
                                  can control and a self who can't. The Dhamma is the middle way
                                  and is neither.
                                  When we hear a teacher like sujin say "develop it" this can be a
                                  condition for either wrong effort or right effort. It depends on
                                  the understanding of the listener.
                                  I think we all have vastly different accumulations and so we
                                  have to learn what is most suitable each for his own. For me
                                  when I first saw the nature of the mind I realized
                                  how powerful ignorance and desire were and I became
                                  frightened by these powerful energies. I just wanted to stop
                                  them - but without wisdom.
                                  It was because I didn't understand
                                  anatta. Later, I understood that defilements can't be
                                  quickly got rid of. That when desire arises it is by
                                  conditions - that the uncontrollabilty of it
                                  demonstrates the truth of anatta. Now my focus
                                  is to understand conditions and to see that there is nobody at
                                  all doing anything.
                                  This doesn't mean that nothing is being done. In the Majjhima
                                  Nikaya 148
                                  Chachakka Sutta
                                  The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known.
                                  The six external media should be known. The six classes of
                                  consciousness should be known. The six classes of contact should
                                  be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six
                                  classes of CRAVING should be known."

                                  Note that it says the six classes of craving should be known. I
                                  think this is important. Most of us are very keen to get the
                                  stage where all craving is gone but first it should be
                                  understood. If we are afraid of it then it is not
                                  possible to insight it. Craving, as much as other dhammas, can
                                  be an object for understanding. if it is seen through the lens
                                  of anatta it is not mistaken for "my" craving and so its true
                                  characteristic can be seen.

                                  Later the sutta says:

                                  "'The six classes of craving should be known.' Thus it was said.
                                  In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms
                                  there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three
                                  is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is
                                  feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is
                                  craving." and it repeats for the other senses.

                                  "If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be
                                  tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned.
                                  And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would
                                  follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it
                                  wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the
                                  self.' So the eye is not-self. ......
                                  If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be
                                  tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned.
                                  And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would
                                  follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it
                                  wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the
                                  self.' Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self,
                                  consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is
                                  not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self. "
                                  robertk
                                • christine_forsyth
                                  Dear All, After Shakti helped me with the persistent and intimidating beggar, she, Azita, Jill, Betty and Pinna decided to hire a car and go to see the cave in
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Nov 6, 2004
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                                    Dear All,

                                    After Shakti helped me with the persistent and intimidating beggar,
                                    she, Azita, Jill, Betty and Pinna decided to hire a car and go to
                                    see the cave in which the Buddha meditated with the five fellow
                                    ascetics before he decided self-torture was not
                                    the way, and accepted the milk from Suchada. I was in the vehicle
                                    initially, but suddenly felt drained and decided not to go on the
                                    couple of hours trip and left them to it.
                                    I went down to lunch and found Jon and Sarah at one
                                    of the tables. They were almost ready to leave, but, I think, sensed
                                    I needed company. I had a talk with them and ate a little, and
                                    then Jon tactfully left Sarah and I together. She probably doesn't
                                    remember the discussion as anything earthshaking, I was feeling in a
                                    little turmoil after my experience with the persistent and
                                    intimidating beggar. It complicated those feelings of discontent
                                    and lack of interest in the Dhamma and Abhidhamma that I had brought
                                    with me to India. I spoke of every single thing that had been
                                    contributing to my losing interest in the Dhamma in the past few
                                    months, problems with expectations of others, with teachers, with
                                    wanting to feel settled and confident, and wanting to know that
                                    understanding was growing. I only realised at this time that I had
                                    invested so much emotionally in the trip - it was to be the Cure, I
                                    was to be Refreshed and Reinvigorated, gain Understanding, and only
                                    have contented fulfilled feelings. It hadn't happened. I was with
                                    Dhamma friends, I was in India, I'd been to the Bodhi Tree briefly,
                                    and I felt increasingly disoriented, tired and irritable. I wasn't
                                    the kindly or even equanimous person I imagined myself to be. I
                                    felt sad at seeing the beggars, and upset that I couldn't help them,
                                    and disturbed at their unceasing persistance. (Whatever you do,
                                    don't have eye contact - so said the guide). I was angry at the
                                    explanation of conditions and kamma/vipaka. It seemed a cop-out. I
                                    felt shaken that I couldn't see myself as a 'good' person, I
                                    couldn't control anything, fix anything or refer people somewhere to
                                    someone who would fix things, and .. they.. wouldn't.. go.. away,
                                    and .. they .. wouldn't ... be .. quiet. What was the Indian
                                    Government doing anyway? what was the Bihar State doing? what were
                                    wealthy Indians or Hindus or even, for goodness sake, God doing?
                                    (How did He pop up again after all these years?) There was a slight
                                    feeling of rising panic. What was the problem and who owns it? I
                                    felt more confused and powerless than I had ever been, I couldn't
                                    think of what the Buddha's teachings would indicate in this muddle I
                                    was in. I felt like the village idiot - surely I should be calmer
                                    and more insightful after four or five years study and practice? I
                                    was semi-seriously thinking about going home to Australia. Except I
                                    didn't know how to do it, and didn't immediately have the energy.
                                    I actually don't recall what Sarah said exactly. She listened, and
                                    listened, and wasn't judgmental and didn't tell me how I should
                                    feel, and never made me feel she wanted to be somewhere else - there
                                    was all the time in the world. She talked Dhamma when appropriate
                                    and related it to my feelings and experiences. Things began to feel
                                    not so out of the ordinary after all. I think there was mention of
                                    concepts, realities, the present moment, conditions, and how natural
                                    it all was. Feeling good, feeling bad - each moment can be seen for
                                    what it is, just this moment. But mainly conversation came back to
                                    Attachment, how it blanketed everything in gross and subtle ways. A
                                    reminder of Achan Sujin's description of Attachment (lobha) as 'the
                                    Teacher that will not leave the Student'. This was the beginning
                                    of feeling better, but more importantly, that was the beginning of
                                    interest growing in the Dhamma again.

                                    metta and peace,
                                    Christine
                                    ---The trouble is that you think you have time---

                                    --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth"
                                    <cforsyth1@b...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Sarah,
                                    >
                                    > I hope you are getting over your cough by now, and that Jon wasn't
                                    > too exhausted by going straight back to work.
                                    > It wasn't the smells of India that remained - I think Azita and I
                                    > are in need of a little therapy - we thought Bangkok smelled
                                    > wonderful and was in a pristine condition after leaving Bihar. :-)
                                    >
                                    > I'm going through my trip diary at the moment and am wishing I
                                    > hadn't written it up in bed, in pencil, last thing at night - I
                                    > should know I'm almost incoherent by then! But if I find anything
                                    > that may be of interest, I'll post it. I tend to record the most
                                    > unimportant things. e.g. I had two pages about my experience on
                                    the
                                    > first day with a persistent young male beggar who cycled from site
                                    > to site and was always waiting for me when the bus pulled up. He
                                    > kept following me around and repeating, in front of others, about
                                    > how I had been 'so nice to him the night before' and 'what had he
                                    > done wrong that I was now ignoring him'. It did sound a little
                                    > odd. :-( I can only assume that I must have said 'thank you' on
                                    > the first night at the airport, if he was one of the luggage
                                    > handlers. I was almost ready to desert and return to Oz until
                                    > Shakti, with her wider experience of India, firmly sorted him out.
                                    > However, he did state in an intimidating way that I would be born
                                    > deaf and dumb in the next life. Can't think of the dhamma focus
                                    > here, unless it was 'no -control' - the inability to make dosa
                                    go
                                    > and metta rise.
                                    > But 'control' is not the same as 'develop', is it?
                                    >
                                    > metta and peace,
                                    > Christine
                                    > ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
                                    >
                                    > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott
                                  • christine_forsyth
                                    Hello Robert, Thanks for your reply. I found it helpful when you said Craving, as much as other dhammas, can be an object for understanding. if it is seen
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Nov 7, 2004
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                                      Hello Robert,

                                      Thanks for your reply. I found it helpful when you said "Craving, as
                                      much as other dhammas, can
                                      be an object for understanding. if it is seen through the lens of
                                      anatta it is not mistaken for "my" craving and so its true
                                      characteristic can be seen." (I included a link to your post in one
                                      of mine on Dhamma-List.)

                                      I understand that there is not complete free choice, and that
                                      outcomes are not pre-ordained. I understand that all things are
                                      conditioned. Intellectually I accept anatta, it seems perfectly
                                      logical. But day to day life shows that 'I' can make choices. There
                                      is no way that I can immediately remove (at least, at this point in
                                      time) the feeling of being the watcher, the do-er, and the knower. I
                                      have found with defilements that suppression doesn't have a high
                                      success rate, but noticing what is going on often robs them of
                                      energy, and they fade away fairly quickly. I don't think I can
                                      manufacture sati, but I wonder if I can't at least create, or set in
                                      place, the conditions that would be conducive for it to arise? And
                                      similarly with panna?

                                      Sometimes I feel we get caught in a sort of politically correct
                                      vocabulary - we change the structure of our sentences to say 'Panna'
                                      knows or 'Sati' sees, but nothing else has changed ... there is
                                      still the watcher, the do-er and the knower - but Hush! ... don't
                                      mention Me.

                                      metta and peace,
                                      Christine
                                      ---The trouble is that you think you have time---

                                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth"
                                      > <cforsyth1@b...> wrote:
                                      > > > Conversation revolved around just how accepting the fact of
                                      > anatta
                                      > > could still allow some quality could be 'developed'. Our
                                      > discussion
                                      > > included - No-self, Conditionality, choice, no control, and the
                                      > two
                                      > > truths.
                                      > ==========
                                      > This is a letter I wrote to Bruce and old member of dsg.
                                      > He wanted to know about develop and why Khun Sujin says 'develop
                                      > understanding' so often:
                                      >
                                      > You wrote "that's where i get stuck...if all dhammas except
                                      > nibbana
                                      > > are
                                      > > conditioned (i'm going on saddha with this, of course), then
                                      > > thinking one
                                      > > can develop anything seems like an exercise in
                                      > > micchaditthi....
                                      >
                                      > _________________
                                      > Good point. I think it depends on the thinking. If we have the
                                      > idea of "I can do it", then we are likely to be caught in self
                                      > view. Or we think we can manufacture sati by effort or good
                                      > intention - self. But there can be wisdom - not us- that sees
                                      > the danger in samasara and thus there is naturally effort that
                                      > arises with that understanding. It is subtle: often we slip into
                                      > self view; either towards the freewill end of the continuum or
                                      > towrds the fatalistic end that thinks nothing can be done.
                                      >
                                      > ____________________________
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > can the path be developed? or do we just leave it up to (for
                                      > > lack of a
                                      > > better f-word) "fate"? ""
                                      > __________________
                                      > Fate implies a preordained outcome. In that case whether we did
                                      > this that or the other nothing would make a thread of
                                      > difference. We could go out and kill and pillage and nothing
                                      > would have any effect and we would all get enlightened or not
                                      > get enlightened depending on our "fate". This is not what the
                                      > Buddha taught. He explained in detail many different conditions.
                                      > It is true that some are past conditions but there are also
                                      > present ones thus it is not fatalism. Both the idea of fatalism
                                      > and the idea of freewill are bound up in self view - a self who
                                      > can control and a self who can't. The Dhamma is the middle way
                                      > and is neither.
                                      > When we hear a teacher like sujin say "develop it" this can be a
                                      > condition for either wrong effort or right effort. It depends on
                                      > the understanding of the listener.
                                      > I think we all have vastly different accumulations and so we
                                      > have to learn what is most suitable each for his own. For me
                                      > when I first saw the nature of the mind I realized
                                      > how powerful ignorance and desire were and I became
                                      > frightened by these powerful energies. I just wanted to stop
                                      > them - but without wisdom.
                                      > It was because I didn't understand
                                      > anatta. Later, I understood that defilements can't be
                                      > quickly got rid of. That when desire arises it is by
                                      > conditions - that the uncontrollabilty of it
                                      > demonstrates the truth of anatta. Now my focus
                                      > is to understand conditions and to see that there is nobody at
                                      > all doing anything.
                                      > This doesn't mean that nothing is being done. In the Majjhima
                                      > Nikaya 148
                                      > Chachakka Sutta
                                      > The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known.
                                      > The six external media should be known. The six classes of
                                      > consciousness should be known. The six classes of contact should
                                      > be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six
                                      > classes of CRAVING should be known."
                                      >
                                      > Note that it says the six classes of craving should be known. I
                                      > think this is important. Most of us are very keen to get the
                                      > stage where all craving is gone but first it should be
                                      > understood. If we are afraid of it then it is not
                                      > possible to insight it. Craving, as much as other dhammas, can
                                      > be an object for understanding. if it is seen through the lens
                                      > of anatta it is not mistaken for "my" craving and so its true
                                      > characteristic can be seen.
                                      >
                                      > Later the sutta says:
                                      >
                                      > "'The six classes of craving should be known.' Thus it was said.
                                      > In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms
                                      > there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three
                                      > is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is
                                      > feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is
                                      > craving." and it repeats for the other senses.
                                      >
                                      > "If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be
                                      > tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned.
                                      > And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would
                                      > follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it
                                      > wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the
                                      > self.' So the eye is not-self. ......
                                      > If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be
                                      > tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned.
                                      > And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would
                                      > follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it
                                      > wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the
                                      > self.' Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self,
                                      > consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is
                                      > not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self. "
                                      > robertk
                                    • sarah abbott
                                      Hi Phil (& Tyler), You wrote an excellent letter to Tyler, I thought. Btw, Tyler, welcome from me too - I look forward to more of your reflections and
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Nov 7, 2004
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                                        Hi Phil (& Tyler),

                                        You wrote an excellent letter to Tyler, I thought.

                                        Btw, Tyler, welcome from me too - I look forward to more of your
                                        reflections and discussions with all the members who've written to you so
                                        far. You may also like to look at some Useful Posts from the archives,
                                        scroll down to 'New to the List....'
                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts

                                        --- plnao <plnao@...> wrote:
                                        > Of course we are encouraged by the sutta in which the Buddha says
                                        > that we should be baffled, or perplexed, or whatever the word is that
                                        > is used - becuase the Dhamma is so deep, so difficult to reason one's
                                        > way
                                        > through.
                                        ....
                                        S: I think the Buddha says we may well be baffled or perplexed, meaning
                                        this is natural (but not a state to be developed;-)).
                                        ....

                                        >I find readily letting go of the parts I don't get yet is part
                                        > and
                                        > parcel
                                        > of Dhamma study. As is knowing when it is the right time to bear down
                                        > a bit on a difficult point. More middle way.
                                        ....
                                        S: Yes, I like your stress on this.
                                        ....
                                        > At one point Nina posted about soemthing like this -
                                        > the wholesomeness of postponing understanding. There was a Pali term for
                                        > it,
                                        > I think.
                                        > Does anyone remember what I'm referring to? I'll never be able to find
                                        > it
                                        > now.
                                        ....
                                        S: It doesn't ring a bell. Was it about patience? You'll have to ask Nina
                                        in a couple of days if she has any idea what you're referring to.
                                        ....
                                        >
                                        > I also wonder if the Perfection of renunciation doesn't involve
                                        > renouncing
                                        > our
                                        > deep-rooted tendency to need to figure everything out through the power
                                        > of the rational mind. As does the Perfection of patience, of course.
                                        ...
                                        S: Yes, renunciation of any akusala arising, including any present lobha
                                        as you suggest.

                                        Metta,

                                        Sarah
                                        =======





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                                      • sarah abbott
                                        Hi Chris, Thanks for sharing your diary extracts from India. Very descriptive and beautifully told. Thank you also for your kind comments and reminders about a
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Nov 7, 2004
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                                          Hi Chris,

                                          Thanks for sharing your diary extracts from India. Very descriptive and
                                          beautifully told. Thank you also for your kind comments and reminders
                                          about a discussion that was useful for me as well. When we discuss dhammas
                                          like lobha, we begin to see how very universal the problems in life really
                                          are and again I'm reminded that when there is sati, there's no problem at
                                          all;-).
                                          ....
                                          --- christine_forsyth <cforsyth1@...> wrote:
                                          >

                                          > Can't think of the dhamma focus
                                          > here, unless it was 'no -control' - the inability to make dosa go
                                          > and metta rise.
                                          > But 'control' is not the same as 'develop', is it?
                                          ....
                                          No, it's not. No control doesn't mean no development. No self to decide or
                                          determine what will arise at any moment, but understanding, awareness,
                                          detachment, confidence and so on can and will arise when there are the
                                          right conditions such as when we have reflected on their qualities and the
                                          realities which can be their objects.

                                          You referred to a p.c. vocabulary we might use, but of course it's not a
                                          question of whether we say 'develop', 'you develop' or 'panna develops',
                                          it's simply a matter of whether there is any understanding of any reality
                                          for what it is, rather than for an idea of 'a self' that has been
                                          entrenched for so very looooong.

                                          It's good to read all your other contributions and renewed interest too.

                                          Please keep sharing from your diary....;-)

                                          Metta,

                                          Sarah
                                          =====





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                                        • Tyler Sims
                                          Thanks Sarah, I will look at those posts. I am reading the posts here and trying to absorb all this new stuff. :) Tyler ... you so ... term for ... Nina ...
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Nov 8, 2004
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                                            Thanks Sarah,

                                            I will look at those posts. I am reading the posts here and trying to
                                            absorb all this new stuff. :)

                                            Tyler

                                            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott
                                            <sarahprocterabbott@y...> wrote:
                                            > Hi Phil (& Tyler),
                                            >
                                            > You wrote an excellent letter to Tyler, I thought.
                                            >
                                            > Btw, Tyler, welcome from me too - I look forward to more of your
                                            > reflections and discussions with all the members who've written to
                                            you so
                                            > far. You may also like to look at some Useful Posts from the archives,
                                            > scroll down to 'New to the List....'
                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts
                                            >
                                            > --- plnao <plnao@j...> wrote:
                                            > > Of course we are encouraged by the sutta in which the Buddha says
                                            > > that we should be baffled, or perplexed, or whatever the word is that
                                            > > is used - becuase the Dhamma is so deep, so difficult to reason one's
                                            > > way
                                            > > through.
                                            > ....
                                            > S: I think the Buddha says we may well be baffled or perplexed, meaning
                                            > this is natural (but not a state to be developed;-)).
                                            > ....
                                            >
                                            > >I find readily letting go of the parts I don't get yet is part
                                            > > and
                                            > > parcel
                                            > > of Dhamma study. As is knowing when it is the right time to bear down
                                            > > a bit on a difficult point. More middle way.
                                            > ....
                                            > S: Yes, I like your stress on this.
                                            > ....
                                            > > At one point Nina posted about soemthing like this -
                                            > > the wholesomeness of postponing understanding. There was a Pali
                                            term for
                                            > > it,
                                            > > I think.
                                            > > Does anyone remember what I'm referring to? I'll never be able to find
                                            > > it
                                            > > now.
                                            > ....
                                            > S: It doesn't ring a bell. Was it about patience? You'll have to ask
                                            Nina
                                            > in a couple of days if she has any idea what you're referring to.
                                            > ....
                                            > >
                                            > > I also wonder if the Perfection of renunciation doesn't involve
                                            > > renouncing
                                            > > our
                                            > > deep-rooted tendency to need to figure everything out through the
                                            power
                                            > > of the rational mind. As does the Perfection of patience, of course.
                                            > ...
                                            > S: Yes, renunciation of any akusala arising, including any present lobha
                                            > as you suggest.
                                            >
                                            > Metta,
                                            >
                                            > Sarah
                                            > =======
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW
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                                          • rjkjp1
                                            ... as ... in ... I ... in ... say Panna ... Dear Christine, The reason we use language like panna know is only as a rhetorical device to bring attention
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Nov 9, 2004
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                                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth"
                                              <cforsyth1@b...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hello Robert,
                                              >
                                              > Thanks for your reply. I found it helpful when you said "Craving,
                                              as
                                              > much as other dhammas, can
                                              > be an object for understanding. .... There
                                              > is no way that I can immediately remove (at least, at this point
                                              in
                                              > time) the feeling of being the watcher, the do-er, and the knower.
                                              I
                                              > have found with defilements that suppression doesn't have a high
                                              > success rate, but noticing what is going on often robs them of
                                              > energy, and they fade away fairly quickly. I don't think I can
                                              > manufacture sati, but I wonder if I can't at least create, or set
                                              in
                                              > place, the conditions that would be conducive for it to arise? And
                                              > similarly with panna?
                                              >
                                              > Sometimes I feel we get caught in a sort of politically correct
                                              > vocabulary - we change the structure of our sentences to
                                              say 'Panna'
                                              > knows or 'Sati' sees, but nothing else has changed ... there is
                                              > still the watcher, the do-er and the knower - but Hush! ... don't
                                              > mention Me.
                                              >=============
                                              Dear Christine,
                                              The reason we use language like 'panna know' is only as a rhetorical
                                              device to bring attention to the fact that it is in fact not my
                                              seeing but only an element. Of course one can speak like that and
                                              still believe and cling to self view. We can think 'there is no
                                              self' but still believe it is me who chose to think like that!

                                              When we are concerned with making the conditions for insight to
                                              arise, what is present? Only by seeing actaul relaities as they
                                              arise will any understanding develop.
                                              Certainly there are many conditions that are supportive of insight-
                                              hearing true Dhamma, pondering it...discusion with wise friends.
                                              Even keeping house and body clean are helpful.
                                              But if there isn't direct awareness , to some degree, of the present
                                              moment, in whatever situation, then insight will remain shallow.
                                              Also other mental factors such as saddha strenghthen insight, and of
                                              course insight strenghthes saddha too.
                                              Robertk
                                            • christine_forsyth
                                              Hello Robert, all, It is a simple thing now that you have explained it as a rhetorical device, but it had been a difficulty for me. Amazing the little things
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Nov 13, 2004
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                                                Hello Robert, all,

                                                It is a simple thing now that you have explained it as a rhetorical
                                                device, but it had been a difficulty for me.
                                                Amazing the little things that are tough knots to undo sometimes.
                                                Thank you.

                                                metta and peace,
                                                Christine
                                                ---The trouble is that you think you have time---

                                                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@y...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth"
                                                > <cforsyth1@b...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hello Robert,
                                                > >
                                                > > Thanks for your reply. I found it helpful when you
                                                said "Craving,
                                                > as
                                                > > much as other dhammas, can
                                                > > be an object for understanding. .... There
                                                > > is no way that I can immediately remove (at least, at this point
                                                > in
                                                > > time) the feeling of being the watcher, the do-er, and the
                                                knower.
                                                > I
                                                > > have found with defilements that suppression doesn't have a high
                                                > > success rate, but noticing what is going on often robs them of
                                                > > energy, and they fade away fairly quickly. I don't think I can
                                                > > manufacture sati, but I wonder if I can't at least create, or
                                                set
                                                > in
                                                > > place, the conditions that would be conducive for it to arise?
                                                And
                                                > > similarly with panna?
                                                > >
                                                > > Sometimes I feel we get caught in a sort of politically correct
                                                > > vocabulary - we change the structure of our sentences to
                                                > say 'Panna'
                                                > > knows or 'Sati' sees, but nothing else has changed ... there is
                                                > > still the watcher, the do-er and the knower - but Hush! ...
                                                don't
                                                > > mention Me.
                                                > >=============
                                                > Dear Christine,
                                                > The reason we use language like 'panna know' is only as a
                                                rhetorical
                                                > device to bring attention to the fact that it is in fact not my
                                                > seeing but only an element. Of course one can speak like that and
                                                > still believe and cling to self view. We can think 'there is no
                                                > self' but still believe it is me who chose to think like that!
                                                >
                                                > When we are concerned with making the conditions for insight to
                                                > arise, what is present? Only by seeing actaul relaities as they
                                                > arise will any understanding develop.
                                                > Certainly there are many conditions that are supportive of insight-

                                                > hearing true Dhamma, pondering it...discusion with wise friends.
                                                > Even keeping house and body clean are helpful.
                                                > But if there isn't direct awareness , to some degree, of the
                                                present
                                                > moment, in whatever situation, then insight will remain shallow.
                                                > Also other mental factors such as saddha strenghthen insight, and
                                                of
                                                > course insight strenghthes saddha too.
                                                > Robertk
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