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Perversions

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  • nina van gorkom
    Hi Sarah and all, I found more material, Patisambidhamagga, Ch VIII (p. 277). We also talked about it long ago. I have the Thai Co which I only partly
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 10, 2004
      Hi Sarah and all,
      I found more material, Patisambidhamagga, Ch VIII (p. 277). We also talked
      about it long ago. I have the Thai Co which I only partly understand. It
      brings us back to the child, villager and money changer who see a coin, as a
      simile. But now it refers to the degree of ignorance. Sañña is the weakest
      perversion, citta is less weak and wrong view, ditthi is the strongest. I
      need more time for this co.
      Also see the Netti, the Guide: p. 117-119.And Vis. 545, 546. This is
      difficult because we have to understand the four kinds of nutrition. These
      are also explained in the Co. to the Sammaditthi sutta. Thus, quite a study.
      Perhaps Rob K or others can help.
      Nina.
    • sarah abbott
      Dear Nina, (Phil at the end), ... S: There may not be any wrong view or idea of self. For example, when ... .... S: Yes. For example now, we may look at
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 14, 2004
        Dear Nina, (Phil at the end),

        --- nina van gorkom <nilo@...> wrote:
        S:> >> There may not be any wrong view or idea of self. For example, when
        > there
        > > is atta-sa~n~naa, there is not necessarily any wrong view of self. It
        > is a
        > > vipallasa (perversion) of sa~n~naa, but not necessaily ditthi
        > vipallasa
        > > (perversion of view).<
        > > *****
        > > S: In other words, there may be a distortion of perception in some
        > regard
        > > as there is with every unwholesome citta arising, but not necessarily
        > > wrong view.
        >
        > N: I still find it difficult to understand what atta-sa~n~naa is. What
        > kind
        > of atta? Perhaps just with clinging, and not necessarily wrong view?
        ....
        S: Yes. For example now, we may look at our hands as we type or look at
        our face in the mirror when we wash. We recognise the face and there’s
        bound to be clinging and ignorance and therefore perversion of sanna, but
        usually no wrong view or idea of a self existing at these times, I think.
        Only panna can know when there’s awareness what kind of kilesa it is
        appearing.
        ....
        N: >It is opposed to anattaa-sañña, and when hearing these in one context
        I just
        > wonder. Good for India?
        > In B. Dict. it says: the sotapanna eradicates the perversion of sañña,
        > citta
        > and ditthi that the impersonal is a personality. What do you think?
        ....
        S: I’ll start jotting down points for India. Good idea.

        Yes, this kind of perversion of sanna and citta accompanying ditthi is
        eradicated by a sotapanna, but still perversion of sanna and citta
        accompanying ignorance, attachment (without wrong view) and aversion such
        as when looking in the mirror or at our hands or the computer when there’s
        no dana, sila or bhavana.

        Like when a child plays for hours with his or her toys --lots of lobha and
        perversion of sanna, but not necessarily any wrong view. For a start,
        there’s usually no thought about anything relating to Truths or practice
        or right view.
        *****
        --- nina van gorkom <nilo@...> wrote:
        > Hi Sarah and all,
        > I found more material, Patisambidhamagga, Ch VIII (p. 277). We also
        > talked
        > about it long ago. I have the Thai Co which I only partly understand. It
        > brings us back to the child, villager and money changer who see a coin,
        > as a
        > simile. But now it refers to the degree of ignorance. Sañña is the
        > weakest
        > perversion, citta is less weak and wrong view, ditthi is the strongest.
        ....
        S: Right. So back to the example of touching a table in ignorance of the
        hardness experienced, there isn’t necessarily any ditthi, the strongest
        perversion arising or appearing as object to be known. Now, if we try to
        touch it in a special way or try to experience hardness or think we should
        focus or label it, then maybe. Again, only sati can be aware of its
        characteristic when it appears as I see it. I hope I haven’t misunderstood
        any of your points.

        Btw, the letter you wrote on ‘space’ was very helpful. I may quote it back
        to Htoo and ask for any of his comments. Also your intro to Vis XIV.99
        (36218) is excellent. I encourage everyone to print it out or read it
        carefully when they have time.

        So much good material elaborated on as this passage from the Vism:

        N: >The Vis. (XIV, 41) states about the bodysense: <The body's
        characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the
        impact of tangible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary
        elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to touch. Its function
        is to pick up [an object] among tangible data. It is manifested as the
        footing of body-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements
        born of kamma sourcing from desire to touch.>
        The great Elements are the support of the bodysense.<
        ....
        S: In appreciation and I encourage others to also jot down topics or
        questions for India too. (Phil, we will try to make recordings available -
        we’re working on this side of things as well as the searching of DSG
        archives. Hope to have something on both fronts before we go away at
        least).

        Metta,

        Sarah
        =======






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      • nina van gorkom
        Dear Sarah, op 14-09-2004 12:06 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@yahoo.co.uk: . ... N: Your examples are clear, thank you. My only point is the texts
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 15, 2004
          Dear Sarah,
          op 14-09-2004 12:06 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...:
          .
          > S: Yes. For example now, we may look at our hands as we type or look at
          > our face in the mirror when we wash. We recognise the face and there’s
          > bound to be clinging and ignorance and therefore perversion of sanna, but
          > usually no wrong view or idea of a self existing at these times, I think.
          > Only panna can know when there’s awareness what kind of kilesa it is
          > appearing.
          N: Your examples are clear, thank you. My only point is the texts where I
          read what is eradicated at the stage of the sotapanna.
          sometimes it is difficult to have an opportunity for asking details, but Jon
          and I can also ask Kh. Anop, he knows such a lot.
          Another point for India, as I understand, all the mind-door processes of
          citta that succeed a sense-door process have a not so classifiable object?
          Thus, past rupa is not a concept, but it is not so classifiable, navattabbam
          aaramma.na.m?
          At the first stage of insight nama and rupa are experienced through the
          mind-door, and their different characteristics are realized. Thus, these
          objects are also not so classifiable? They are not concepts.
          Many difficult areas.
          Nina.
        • gazita2002
          Dear Nina and Sarah, ... [cut] ... processes of ... object? ... navattabbam ... the ... these ... T.A.Sujin described this event - the taking up of the object
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 15, 2004
            Dear Nina and Sarah,


            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...>
            wrote:
            > Dear Sarah,
            [cut]

            > Another point for India, as I understand, all the mind-door
            processes of
            > citta that succeed a sense-door process have a not so classifiable
            object?
            > Thus, past rupa is not a concept, but it is not so classifiable,
            navattabbam
            > aaramma.na.m?
            > At the first stage of insight nama and rupa are experienced through
            the
            > mind-door, and their different characteristics are realized. Thus,
            these
            > objects are also not so classifiable? They are not concepts.
            > Many difficult areas.
            > Nina.

            T.A.Sujin described this event - the taking up of the object by
            the mind door, after the sense door - as two pieces of thin paper,
            one on top of the other; if a drop of water touched the first sheet
            then it would [almost] instantly reach the second sheet.

            Maybe you have heard this before, but when I heard it, that not-
            so-classifiable-object concept became a little clearer for me.

            Patience, courage and good cheer,
            Azita.
          • nina van gorkom
            Dear Azita, ... N: Very good, I remember now. I had forgotten it. A: Maybe you have heard this before, but when I heard it, that not- ... NIna.
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 16, 2004
              Dear Azita,
              op 16-09-2004 01:53 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...:

              > T.A.Sujin described this event - the taking up of the object by
              > the mind door, after the sense door - as two pieces of thin paper,
              > one on top of the other; if a drop of water touched the first sheet
              > then it would [almost] instantly reach the second sheet.
              N: Very good, I remember now. I had forgotten it.
              A: Maybe you have heard this before, but when I heard it, that not-
              > so-classifiable-object concept became a little clearer for me.

              NIna.
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