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[dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2.

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  • rjkjp1
    ... understanding grows. ... for practice, ... practice - that the ... Dear Howard, I quote from Tahking Refuge In Buddhism by Sujin Boriharnwanaket
    Message 1 of 57 , Jul 31, 2004
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      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
      > Hi, Nina (and Eric, and all) -
      > ericlonline op ericlonline@y...:
      > > >E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development?
      > > E: Only listening? This is not clear here.
      > > N: By listening, as I said, in that way intellectual
      understanding grows.
      > > This is the stage of pariyatti and this forms up the condition
      for practice,
      > > patipatti.
      > ============================
      > But what, Nina, and all
      > others, of course, in your understanding, is the patipatti - the
      practice - that the
      > pariyatti "forms up the condition for"?
      >
      > ------------
      Dear Howard,
      I quote from "Tahking Refuge In Buddhism" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket
      ""Question: Is there a method by which sati can be aware of realities
      appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind? How
      can sati arise fast enough in order to be aware of the present moment?

      Sujin: There is no method which can be followed, but at this moment
      realities are appearing already. One can begin to develop more
      understanding of them. If one first listens to the Dhamma and
      understands what one hears, sati can arise and be aware of realities.
      However, we have to listen again and again in order to gain more
      understanding of realities as non-self. What appears through the
      eyes, visible object, has contacted the rœpa which is eyesense; it
      just appears for an extremely short moment and then it falls away. If
      we gain more understanding of realities we will not forget that rœpa-
      kkhandha (the khandha of physical phenomena), vedanŒ-kkhandha
      (feelings), sanna-kkhandha (remembrance or ÒperceptionÓ), sankhŒra-
      kkhandha (formations or activities, all cetasikas other than vedanŒ
      and sanna) and vinnana-kkhandha (consciousness), thus, the five
      khandhas, are not self, not I. Listening conditions the accumulation
      of sati and panna, and thus, awareness of the reality which appears
      can arise and at that moment understanding of it can develop. This is
      in fact satipatthana. Satipatthana is not a particular method which
      should be followed in order to be aware of realities. Satipatthana is
      the development of the understanding of the characteristics of
      realities which arise and appear, each because of their own
      conditions.
      Do you know ahead of time when realities such as hearing, anger or
      sati will arise? If there are not the right conditions for hearing we
      cannot cause its arising. Only when there are conditions for it, it
      arises. Even so, when there are not the right conditions for the
      arising of sati, we cannot cause its arising. When there are the
      right conditions for sati, it arises and then we will know that there
      is no self who can cause its arising.
      The development of satipatthana is very subtle; if there is no right
      understanding of its development people will cling to wrong practice
      (silabbatta paramasa kaya-gantha). Only panna can eradicate wrong
      practice. When someone does not know the difference between the
      moment when there is sati and the moment when there is no sati, he
      may try to follow another way which is the wrong practice. Right
      understanding of the way how to develop satipatthan is indispensable;
      panna should know that sati is anatta, non-self, and it should know
      when there is sati and when there is forgetfulness of realities. If
      the difference between such moments is not known panna cannot be
      developed. There will be clinging to the concept of self who tries to
      do something.
      The way to begin is knowing when sati arises and when there is
      forgetfulness. I will give an example. We all touch things which are
      hard. Even a child knows that something is hard, because hardness
      impinges on the rœpa which is bodysense and there is citta which
      experiences the characteristic of hardness. This happens time and
      again in daily life. When we just experience or notice hardness, it
      does not mean that there is sati and panna. Someone, however, who has
      listened to the Dhamma knows that hardness is a reality which appears
      when it contacts the rœpa which is bodysense. Hardness is non-self,
      there is nobody who can create the element of hardness. Whenever the
      bodysense, which is all over the body, from head to toes, is
      contacted by something hard, the element of hardness appears. The
      true characteristic of that particular element presents itself at
      such a moment. However, when there is forgetfulness of realities and
      there is no right understanding, we take the whole body, from head to
      toes, for self.
      From the time we have been getting up in the morning until now we
      have, time and again, touched what is hard, but if one has not
      listened to the Dhamma one is forgetful of such moments. A person who
      has listened to the Dhamma and has grasped what he heard, has right
      understanding of the characteristic of hardness when it appears. He
      understands that it is only a reality which appears, not a ÒselfÓ.
      Just a moment ago we experienced something hard, and now, at this
      moment, we can begin to understand that hardness is only a reality.
      Such understanding is due to sati which has arisen and which is aware
      of the characteristic of hardness. When sati arises it is aware of a
      reality just for an extremely short moment, and after that there is
      again forgetfulness of realities.""endquote
      RobertK
    • sarah abbott
      Hi Swee Boon, I had meant to get back to your comments a little sooner....We were discussing the sutta from SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? [B.Bodhi transl]
      Message 57 of 57 , Aug 9, 2004
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        Hi Swee Boon,

        I had meant to get back to your comments a little sooner....We were
        discussing the sutta from SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? [B.Bodhi
        transl]

        --- nidive <nidive@...> wrote:

        SA:> > I'd be genuinely interested to know whether you read the following
        > > sutta as stressing anything other than `momentary sati' or direct
        > > momentary understanding of namas and rupas when they appear.
        >
        SB: > We are constantly seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and
        > thinking. Taking that sutta literally, it could not be talking about
        > "momentary sati". It is talking about sustained and continuous sati.
        > An arahant has perfect sati. An arahant's sati is not "momentary". An
        > arahant is mindful at all moments.
        .....
        SA: To say that any sati or other mental state (even in an arahant) is not
        momentary, one would have to be ignoring any suttas which stress the speed
        of the mind and the shortness of wholesome states, not to mention ignoring
        the commentaries and the Abhidhamma. The same issue (of lasting
        consciousness) is given in the Katthavatthu.

        Indeed the truth about anicca, dukkha and anatta surely is that every
        conditioned citta, cetasika and rupa begins to fall away as soon as it has
        arisen, is thereby inherently unsatisfactory and cannot be controlled by
        any ‘self’.

        I gave a couple of quotes on the speed of the mind here:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29088
        .....
        SB: > How does one train to make sati sustained and continuous? By taking
        up
        > one of the mindfulness immersed in the body practices.
        >
        > When one takes up one of those practices taught by the Buddha, one
        > trains sati to be sustained and continuous. When sati is sustained and
        > continuous, whether one sees, hears, smells, tastes, touches or
        > thinks, if lust is present, he knows that lust is present; if lust is
        > absent, he knows that lust is absent; if hatred is present, he knows
        > that hatred is present; if hatred is absent, he knows that hatred is
        > absent; if delusion is present, he knows that delusion is present; if
        > delusion is absent, he knows that delusion is absent.
        ....
        SA: Rather than training sati to be ‘sustained and continuous’, I would
        say that the development of satipatthana is training sati to repeatedly
        arise and be aware of many different realities such as seeing hearing.
        lust, aversion and so on. I think it’s important to understand that sati,
        like all other mental phenomena has to arise and fall with the cittas it
        accompanies and doesn’t last for an instant. Otherwise, it’s bound to be
        an idea of sati that stays or continues, rather than being directly aware
        of different phenomena, one at a time. When there is seeing or hearing
        consciousness, there cannot be sati at these times (not for an arahant
        either), but the characteristics of these namas can be known immediately
        afterwards, when sati and panna arise in the javana process.
        ....
        SB: > Seeing thus, one understands with genuine wisdom.
        ....
        SA: Right, wisdom understands one reality momentarily and is then gone. of
        course, as wisdom develops, it will arise more frequently and penetrate
        deeper and deeper, but still its nature is to fall away instantly and
        never to last.

        I’d like to continue this discussion if we can. Btw, I liked your post on
        Sariputta. As you wrote:

        ‘Even if we could accumulate as much “wisdom through pondering” as
        Sariputta over many aeons of rebirths, the chance of meeting an arahant
        who could expound the Dhamma exquisitely to each of us personally is
        virtually nil.’

        I also agree that ‘No control and no self doesn’t mean that nothing could
        be done. The Buddha did not teach us to be sitting ducks.’ You then went
        on to say that ‘He did teach us to be sitting meditators though.’ I would
        say that he taught us to be sitting, standing. walking and lying down
        meditators, using meditators here in the sense of those developing bhavana
        (samatha and vipassana) and without any idea of a self doing such
        developing.

        I’ll be glad to hear your further comments, Swee Boon.

        Metta,

        Sarah
        =======






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