[dsg] Re: what I heard, Q. no 2.
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, upasaka@a... wrote:
> Hi, Nina (and Eric, and all) -understanding grows.
> ericlonline op ericlonline@y...:
> > >E: Does A. Sujin or you offer suggestions for this development?
> > E: Only listening? This is not clear here.
> > N: By listening, as I said, in that way intellectual
> > This is the stage of pariyatti and this forms up the conditionfor practice,
> > patipatti.practice - that the
> But what, Nina, and all
> others, of course, in your understanding, is the patipatti - the
> pariyatti "forms up the condition for"?Dear Howard,
I quote from "Tahking Refuge In Buddhism" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket
""Question: Is there a method by which sati can be aware of realities
appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind? How
can sati arise fast enough in order to be aware of the present moment?
Sujin: There is no method which can be followed, but at this moment
realities are appearing already. One can begin to develop more
understanding of them. If one first listens to the Dhamma and
understands what one hears, sati can arise and be aware of realities.
However, we have to listen again and again in order to gain more
understanding of realities as non-self. What appears through the
eyes, visible object, has contacted the rpa which is eyesense; it
just appears for an extremely short moment and then it falls away. If
we gain more understanding of realities we will not forget that rpa-
kkhandha (the khandha of physical phenomena), vedan-kkhandha
(feelings), sanna-kkhandha (remembrance or ÒperceptionÓ), sankhra-
kkhandha (formations or activities, all cetasikas other than vedan
and sanna) and vinnana-kkhandha (consciousness), thus, the five
khandhas, are not self, not I. Listening conditions the accumulation
of sati and panna, and thus, awareness of the reality which appears
can arise and at that moment understanding of it can develop. This is
in fact satipatthana. Satipatthana is not a particular method which
should be followed in order to be aware of realities. Satipatthana is
the development of the understanding of the characteristics of
realities which arise and appear, each because of their own
Do you know ahead of time when realities such as hearing, anger or
sati will arise? If there are not the right conditions for hearing we
cannot cause its arising. Only when there are conditions for it, it
arises. Even so, when there are not the right conditions for the
arising of sati, we cannot cause its arising. When there are the
right conditions for sati, it arises and then we will know that there
is no self who can cause its arising.
The development of satipatthana is very subtle; if there is no right
understanding of its development people will cling to wrong practice
(silabbatta paramasa kaya-gantha). Only panna can eradicate wrong
practice. When someone does not know the difference between the
moment when there is sati and the moment when there is no sati, he
may try to follow another way which is the wrong practice. Right
understanding of the way how to develop satipatthan is indispensable;
panna should know that sati is anatta, non-self, and it should know
when there is sati and when there is forgetfulness of realities. If
the difference between such moments is not known panna cannot be
developed. There will be clinging to the concept of self who tries to
The way to begin is knowing when sati arises and when there is
forgetfulness. I will give an example. We all touch things which are
hard. Even a child knows that something is hard, because hardness
impinges on the rpa which is bodysense and there is citta which
experiences the characteristic of hardness. This happens time and
again in daily life. When we just experience or notice hardness, it
does not mean that there is sati and panna. Someone, however, who has
listened to the Dhamma knows that hardness is a reality which appears
when it contacts the rpa which is bodysense. Hardness is non-self,
there is nobody who can create the element of hardness. Whenever the
bodysense, which is all over the body, from head to toes, is
contacted by something hard, the element of hardness appears. The
true characteristic of that particular element presents itself at
such a moment. However, when there is forgetfulness of realities and
there is no right understanding, we take the whole body, from head to
toes, for self.
From the time we have been getting up in the morning until now we
have, time and again, touched what is hard, but if one has not
listened to the Dhamma one is forgetful of such moments. A person who
has listened to the Dhamma and has grasped what he heard, has right
understanding of the characteristic of hardness when it appears. He
understands that it is only a reality which appears, not a ÒselfÓ.
Just a moment ago we experienced something hard, and now, at this
moment, we can begin to understand that hardness is only a reality.
Such understanding is due to sati which has arisen and which is aware
of the characteristic of hardness. When sati arises it is aware of a
reality just for an extremely short moment, and after that there is
again forgetfulness of realities.""endquote
- Hi Swee Boon,
I had meant to get back to your comments a little sooner....We were
discussing the sutta from SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? [B.Bodhi
--- nidive <nidive@...> wrote:
SA:> > I'd be genuinely interested to know whether you read the following
> > sutta as stressing anything other than `momentary sati' or directSB: > We are constantly seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and
> > momentary understanding of namas and rupas when they appear.
> thinking. Taking that sutta literally, it could not be talking about.....
> "momentary sati". It is talking about sustained and continuous sati.
> An arahant has perfect sati. An arahant's sati is not "momentary". An
> arahant is mindful at all moments.
SA: To say that any sati or other mental state (even in an arahant) is not
momentary, one would have to be ignoring any suttas which stress the speed
of the mind and the shortness of wholesome states, not to mention ignoring
the commentaries and the Abhidhamma. The same issue (of lasting
consciousness) is given in the Katthavatthu.
Indeed the truth about anicca, dukkha and anatta surely is that every
conditioned citta, cetasika and rupa begins to fall away as soon as it has
arisen, is thereby inherently unsatisfactory and cannot be controlled by
I gave a couple of quotes on the speed of the mind here:
SB: > How does one train to make sati sustained and continuous? By taking
> one of the mindfulness immersed in the body practices.....
> When one takes up one of those practices taught by the Buddha, one
> trains sati to be sustained and continuous. When sati is sustained and
> continuous, whether one sees, hears, smells, tastes, touches or
> thinks, if lust is present, he knows that lust is present; if lust is
> absent, he knows that lust is absent; if hatred is present, he knows
> that hatred is present; if hatred is absent, he knows that hatred is
> absent; if delusion is present, he knows that delusion is present; if
> delusion is absent, he knows that delusion is absent.
SA: Rather than training sati to be sustained and continuous, I would
say that the development of satipatthana is training sati to repeatedly
arise and be aware of many different realities such as seeing hearing.
lust, aversion and so on. I think its important to understand that sati,
like all other mental phenomena has to arise and fall with the cittas it
accompanies and doesnt last for an instant. Otherwise, its bound to be
an idea of sati that stays or continues, rather than being directly aware
of different phenomena, one at a time. When there is seeing or hearing
consciousness, there cannot be sati at these times (not for an arahant
either), but the characteristics of these namas can be known immediately
afterwards, when sati and panna arise in the javana process.
SB: > Seeing thus, one understands with genuine wisdom.
SA: Right, wisdom understands one reality momentarily and is then gone. of
course, as wisdom develops, it will arise more frequently and penetrate
deeper and deeper, but still its nature is to fall away instantly and
never to last.
Id like to continue this discussion if we can. Btw, I liked your post on
Sariputta. As you wrote:
Even if we could accumulate as much wisdom through pondering as
Sariputta over many aeons of rebirths, the chance of meeting an arahant
who could expound the Dhamma exquisitely to each of us personally is
I also agree that No control and no self doesnt mean that nothing could
be done. The Buddha did not teach us to be sitting ducks. You then went
on to say that He did teach us to be sitting meditators though. I would
say that he taught us to be sitting, standing. walking and lying down
meditators, using meditators here in the sense of those developing bhavana
(samatha and vipassana) and without any idea of a self doing such
Ill be glad to hear your further comments, Swee Boon.
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