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what I heard

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  • nina van gorkom
    Dear Jon, I listened to MP 3. A. Sujin asked you in India: do you have possessions (sombat), and you were somewhat surprised. She then explained; when in deep
    Message 1 of 57 , Jul 9, 2004
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      Dear Jon,
      I listened to MP 3. A. Sujin asked you in India: do you have possessions
      (sombat), and you were somewhat surprised. She then explained; when in deep
      sleep you have no possessions, you do not even have a name. No object is
      appearing through the senses, we do not know anything, not even our name.
      Also when seeing now you only experience colour and own not any possessions,
      you do not think of them. Seeing arises only for a moment then it falls
      away. We cling the whole day but we do not own anything.
      She also often says that we have to be brave and happy when developing pañña
      (athaan rarung). This is actually atapii: ardent. We have to be brave to
      continue developing pañña.
      Kom asked: we know that we have lobha and dosa, but is it not so that their
      characteristics can only be known after the first stage of insight?
      A. Sujin: We know that we have them, but when lobha arises it is still ours.
      It is nama but this does not mean that is has no characteristic. Lobha and
      dosa have their own characteristics, and we know when we have them, but we
      do not know them as nama dhammas. We know lobha is thus, dosa is thus, but
      they are still ours. They are elements, dhatus, and this can only be
      realized through insight knowledge. Thus first nama has to be known as nama
      and rupa as rupa.
      I am reminded here that nama has to be seen as nama, but that they are not
      neutral, that they are all different ones with different characteristics.
    • sarah abbott
      Hi Swee Boon, I had meant to get back to your comments a little sooner....We were discussing the sutta from SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? [B.Bodhi transl]
      Message 57 of 57 , Aug 9, 2004
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        Hi Swee Boon,

        I had meant to get back to your comments a little sooner....We were
        discussing the sutta from SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? [B.Bodhi

        --- nidive <nidive@...> wrote:

        SA:> > I'd be genuinely interested to know whether you read the following
        > > sutta as stressing anything other than `momentary sati' or direct
        > > momentary understanding of namas and rupas when they appear.
        SB: > We are constantly seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and
        > thinking. Taking that sutta literally, it could not be talking about
        > "momentary sati". It is talking about sustained and continuous sati.
        > An arahant has perfect sati. An arahant's sati is not "momentary". An
        > arahant is mindful at all moments.
        SA: To say that any sati or other mental state (even in an arahant) is not
        momentary, one would have to be ignoring any suttas which stress the speed
        of the mind and the shortness of wholesome states, not to mention ignoring
        the commentaries and the Abhidhamma. The same issue (of lasting
        consciousness) is given in the Katthavatthu.

        Indeed the truth about anicca, dukkha and anatta surely is that every
        conditioned citta, cetasika and rupa begins to fall away as soon as it has
        arisen, is thereby inherently unsatisfactory and cannot be controlled by
        any ‘self’.

        I gave a couple of quotes on the speed of the mind here:
        SB: > How does one train to make sati sustained and continuous? By taking
        > one of the mindfulness immersed in the body practices.
        > When one takes up one of those practices taught by the Buddha, one
        > trains sati to be sustained and continuous. When sati is sustained and
        > continuous, whether one sees, hears, smells, tastes, touches or
        > thinks, if lust is present, he knows that lust is present; if lust is
        > absent, he knows that lust is absent; if hatred is present, he knows
        > that hatred is present; if hatred is absent, he knows that hatred is
        > absent; if delusion is present, he knows that delusion is present; if
        > delusion is absent, he knows that delusion is absent.
        SA: Rather than training sati to be ‘sustained and continuous’, I would
        say that the development of satipatthana is training sati to repeatedly
        arise and be aware of many different realities such as seeing hearing.
        lust, aversion and so on. I think it’s important to understand that sati,
        like all other mental phenomena has to arise and fall with the cittas it
        accompanies and doesn’t last for an instant. Otherwise, it’s bound to be
        an idea of sati that stays or continues, rather than being directly aware
        of different phenomena, one at a time. When there is seeing or hearing
        consciousness, there cannot be sati at these times (not for an arahant
        either), but the characteristics of these namas can be known immediately
        afterwards, when sati and panna arise in the javana process.
        SB: > Seeing thus, one understands with genuine wisdom.
        SA: Right, wisdom understands one reality momentarily and is then gone. of
        course, as wisdom develops, it will arise more frequently and penetrate
        deeper and deeper, but still its nature is to fall away instantly and
        never to last.

        I’d like to continue this discussion if we can. Btw, I liked your post on
        Sariputta. As you wrote:

        ‘Even if we could accumulate as much “wisdom through pondering” as
        Sariputta over many aeons of rebirths, the chance of meeting an arahant
        who could expound the Dhamma exquisitely to each of us personally is
        virtually nil.’

        I also agree that ‘No control and no self doesn’t mean that nothing could
        be done. The Buddha did not teach us to be sitting ducks.’ You then went
        on to say that ‘He did teach us to be sitting meditators though.’ I would
        say that he taught us to be sitting, standing. walking and lying down
        meditators, using meditators here in the sense of those developing bhavana
        (samatha and vipassana) and without any idea of a self doing such

        I’ll be glad to hear your further comments, Swee Boon.



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