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[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots

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  • Jonothan Abbott
    ... This is so true. The need to see our own attachments and wrong view. In a way, this is what the game is all about. And I think, going back to an earlier
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 9, 2000
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      Robert wrote:
      >I spoke to a couple of people near the Boddhi tree in
      >Bodhgaya. One seemed interested in the conversation -
      >which was about sati -but apologised because she had
      >to start chanting . She had to repeat something
      >several thousand times and was concerned that this be
      >done on time. She said her guru told her that this
      >would increase saddha. This is a very obvious example
      >of attachment - but , for sure, we have our own
      >attachments, blindspots that need to be revealed so
      >that they can be analysed, understood and eventually
      >dropped.

      This is so true. The need to see our own attachments and wrong view. In a
      way, this is what the game is all about.

      And I think, going back to an earlier theme, that meditation as it is
      generally understood is on a different tack. For many, the purpose of
      practising meditation is to have a particular kind of wholesome mental
      state. For these people, any unwholesomeness arising is not a desirable
      thing.

      We are fortunate enough to understand that a moment of understanding, at
      whatever level, of the charactersitic of attachment or wrong view or akusala
      of any kind arising is a very valuable moment. In this sense, we can be
      happy to see more akusala!

      ______________________________________________________
    • Robert Kirkpatrick
      Dear Jonothon, Your comments are spot on: We are fortunate enough to understand that a moment ... The path is completely different from what I thought it was
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 9, 2000
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        Dear Jonothon,
        Your comments are spot on:> "We are fortunate enough
        to understand that a moment
        > of understanding, at
        > whatever level, of the charactersitic of attachment
        > or wrong view or akusala
        > of any kind arising is a very valuable moment. In
        > this sense, we can be
        > happy to see more akusala!"

        The path is completely different from what I thought
        it was in my early, confused years in Buddhism. For a
        Buddhist even the worst expeience is (or can be)
        simply an object for understanding, a validation of
        the Buddha's words. It is so relaxing to realise that
        any and all objects - strong fear, the most intense
        pain, the strongest desire, the most sublime calm,
        sadness, happiness , boredom, confusion, clarity, any
        dhamma at all, can be an object for sati and panna.

        Sarah, would you be able to send me the tapes of our
        talks in Bangkok earlier this month. If you like I
        will edit and send on to Nina?

        A point that came up in those discusions: it was
        suggested that seeing and colour are harder to
        understand as not-self because when seeing we
        immediately think of people , tables, objects and so
        on. Touch seems less deceiving because it is easy to
        accept that there is only hardness , or heat etc.
        through the bodysense. Sound also seems easier as it
        falls away so quickly whereas visible object doesn't
        change so much.
        But I wonder about this. It is true that when we
        perceive heat or hardness we can easily know that it
        is only hardness or heat. But do we still have a very
        slight idea of something being there? We may not
        think of person or table but even if we think of
        hardness as something like subatomic particles it is
        still a perception of permanence to a degree. And then
        who is perceiving, is it us or is it merely an
        element? Or do we have a subtle sense of controlling
        the perception; of being able to induce it - then we
        are again stuck in sakkyaditthi. We forget about the
        complex, evanescent conditions making up
        sankharakkhanda. Perhaps Jonothon or sarah (or anyone)
        could comment and elucidate on this.
        Robert
        >
        >
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      • Jonothan Abbott
        ... Same for me. However, despite understanding this (at an intellectual level at least), I am conscious of holding the implicit view that certain objects are
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 9, 2000
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          >The path is completely different from what I thought
          >it was in my early, confused years in Buddhism. For a
          >Buddhist even the worst expeience is (or can be)
          >simply an object for understanding, a validation of
          >the Buddha's words. It is so relaxing to realise that
          >any and all objects - strong fear, the most intense
          >pain, the strongest desire, the most sublime calm,
          >sadness, happiness , boredom, confusion, clarity, any
          >dhamma at all, can be an object for sati and panna.

          Same for me. However, despite understanding this (at an intellectual level
          at least), I am conscious of holding the implicit view that certain objects
          are easier (==more suitable?) to be aware of than others; and strong
          akusual definitely comes within the "others"!

          ______________________________________________________
        • amara chay
          ... I think it depends on our individual accumulations, I have a strange tendency (which used to worry me a little) to suddenly be aware in a moment or crises,
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 10, 2000
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            >Same for me. However, despite understanding this (at an intellectual level
            >at least), I am conscious of holding the implicit view that certain objects
            >are easier (==more suitable?) to be aware of than others; and strong
            >akusual definitely comes within the "others"!


            I think it depends on our individual accumulations, I have a strange
            tendency (which used to worry me a little) to suddenly be aware in a moment
            or crises, when color, sound or whatever would be clearer for an instant,
            and then the chaos would continue, but then I usually would seem to be the
            one with the "presence of mind" in that particular situation. It was of
            course better than if the opposite had happened, but because it was more
            memorable to me than other things, for a long time I was worried that it
            would take a crises for me to have the experience, that certainly would not
            be fun!
            But then I realized (after quite a few years of worrying about it, mind!)
            that it was my defective memory, that other moments of awareness do arise,
            in fact much more, outside crises.
            The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati, it can really arise at
            any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the right understanding.
            And one very good reminder is this group and our discussions, I think!
            Amara

            ______________________________________________________
          • Robert Kirkpatrick
            ... .Because the awareness cuts the impact of the problem it is more noticeable than at other times. Robert Does anyone kow who is a member of the discussion
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 10, 2000
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              --- amara chay <joychay@...> wrote:
              >
              > >Same for me. However, despite understanding this
              > (at an intellectual level
              > >at least), I am conscious of holding the implicit
              > view that certain objects
              > >are easier (==more suitable?) to be aware of than
              > others; and strong
              > >akusual definitely comes within the "others"!
              >
              >
              > I think it depends on our individual accumulations,
              > I have a strange
              > tendency (which used to worry me a little) to
              > suddenly be aware in a moment
              > or crises, when color, sound or whatever would be
              > clearer for an instant,
              > and then the chaos would continue, but then I
              > usually would seem to be the
              > one with the "presence of mind" in that particular
              > situation. It was of
              > course better than if the opposite had happened, but
              > because it was more
              > memorable to me than other things, for a long time I
              > was worried that it
              > would take a crises for me to have the experience,
              > that certainly would not
              > be fun!
              > But then I realized (after quite a few years of
              > worrying about it, mind!)
              > that it was my defective memory, that other moments
              > of awareness do arise,
              > in fact much more, outside crises.
              > The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati,
              > it can really arise at
              > any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the
              > right understanding.
              > And one very good reminder is this group and our
              > discussions, I think!
              > Amara
              >
              > Very interesting___Amara, I have a similar pattern
              .Because the awareness cuts the impact of the problem
              it is more noticeable than at other times.
              Robert

              Does anyone kow who is a member of the discussion
              group. Have Ivan and ell joined?
              Robert___________________________________________________

              __________________________________________________
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              Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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            • Sarah Procter Abbott
              ... I agree. As soon as there is any idea (not necessarily in words) of something, it s thinking of a concept rather than awareness of the rupa which is
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 11, 2000
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                >...................... It is true that when we
                >perceive heat or hardness we can easily know that it
                >is only hardness or heat. But do we still have a very
                >slight idea of something being there? We may not
                >think of person or table but even if we think of
                >hardness as something like subatomic particles it is
                >still a perception of permanence to a degree. And then
                >who is perceiving, is it us or is it merely an
                >element? Or do we have a subtle sense of controlling
                >the perception; of being able to induce it - then we
                >are again stuck in sakkyaditthi. We forget about the
                >complex, evanescent conditions making up
                >sankharakkhanda. Perhaps Jonothon or sarah (or anyone)
                >could comment and elucidate on this.
                >Robert
                > >

                I agree. As soon as there is any idea (not necessarily in words) of
                something, it's thinking of a concept rather than awareness of the rupa
                which is experienced. It follows so quickly! Whenever there is an idea of
                one doorway being easier for awareness, such as the meditators who start
                with bodily feelings for example, there is usually the idea of self and
                control and selecting an object. It's also true, though, that some realities
                are easier to understand intellectually and as we know, some realities can
                never be the object of awareness....so of course, it all depends on the
                understanding when we say things...
                Does this make any sense?
                Sarah
                ______________________________________________________
              • Sarah Procter Abbott
                ... Interesting and funny story! Of course, in between any moments of awareness there s bound to be the doubts and confusions and worrying, especially in the
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 11, 2000
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                  >From: "amara chay" <joychay@...>
                  >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com
                  >To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com
                  >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots
                  >Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 03:03:24 PST
                  >
                  >
                  >I think it depends on our individual accumulations, I have a strange
                  >tendency (which used to worry me a little) to suddenly be aware in a moment
                  >or crises, when color, sound or whatever would be clearer for an instant,
                  >and then the chaos would continue, but then I usually would seem to be the
                  >one with the "presence of mind" in that particular situation. It was of
                  >course better than if the opposite had happened, but because it was more
                  >memorable to me than other things, for a long time I was worried that it
                  >would take a crises for me to have the experience, that certainly would not
                  >be fun!
                  >But then I realized (after quite a few years of worrying about it, mind!)
                  >that it was my defective memory, that other moments of awareness do arise,
                  >in fact much more, outside crises.
                  >The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati, it can really arise at
                  >any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the right understanding.
                  >And one very good reminder is this group and our discussions, I think!
                  >Amara
                  >
                  Interesting and funny story! Of course, in between any moments of awareness
                  there's bound to be the doubts and confusions and worrying, especially in
                  the beginning when it's not 'firm'...Confidence has to grow w/understanding
                  too. I'm also finding the reminders here v.useful.
                  Sarah
                  ______________________________________________________
                • Sarah Procter Abbott
                  ... S. ______________________________________________________
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 11, 2000
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                    >Does anyone kow who is a member of the discussion
                    >group. Have Ivan and ell joined?
                    >Robert___________________________________________________
                    >
                    >yes, Ivan & Elle are hopefully reading & I'm sure will post SOON. Alan also
                    >joined a couple of days ago & Tom & Bev just joined this eve. (Amara &
                    >Jonothan knew Tom in Bkk ages back).
                    S.
                    ______________________________________________________
                  • charlest
                    ... .......... snip C: ... C: Still true??? peace... metta (maitri), Chuck
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 16, 2009
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                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Procter Abbott" <sarahhk@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >From: "amara chay" <joychay@...>
                      > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com
                      > >To: dhammastudygroup@egroups.com
                      > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Seeing our blindspots
                      > >Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 03:03:24 PST
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >I think it depends on our individual accumulations,...

                      .......... snip

                      C:

                      A repeat of a portion of the snip:

                      >But then I realized (after quite a few years of worrying about it, >mind!)
                      >that it was my defective memory, that other moments of awareness do >arise,
                      >in fact much more, outside crises.
                      >The thing is not to under-estimate to power of sati, it can really >arise at
                      >any moment, with the right conditions, mainly the right >understanding.
                      >And one very good reminder is this group and our discussions, I >think!
                      >Amara
                      >
                      >Interesting and funny story! Of course, in between any moments of >awareness
                      >there's bound to be the doubts and confusions and worrying, >especially in
                      >the beginning when it's not 'firm'...Confidence has to grow >w/understanding
                      >too. I'm also finding the reminders here v.useful.
                      >Sarah

                      C: Still true???

                      peace...

                      metta (maitri),

                      Chuck
                    • sarah
                      Dear Chuck, Well, this must have been a really old message, probably almost 10 yrs old like the list! ... ... S: (corrected one grammar typo!) And then, still
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 17, 2009
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                        Dear Chuck,

                        Well, this must have been a really old message, probably almost 10 yrs old like the list!

                        > >S:... Of course, in between any moments of awareness
                        > >there are bound to be the doubts and confusions and worrying, >especially in
                        > >the beginning when it's not 'firm'...Confidence has to grow >w/understanding
                        > >too. I'm also finding the reminders here v.useful.
                        > >Sarah
                        >
                        > C: Still true???
                        ...
                        S: (corrected one grammar typo!)

                        And then, still true!!

                        Are you reading through the archives? If so, do you know how to download/scroll through them easily? If not, ask pt (and Connie) here and they'll be able to explain again. I remember Rob M downloaded the entire lot onto his hard-drive to be able to read off-line.

                        (Also, if anyone needs advice anytime on how to download recent posts for reading off-line or printing, please ask us.)

                        Metta

                        Sarah
                        =========
                      • charlest
                        Good friend Sarah, et al ... C: Well, sort of just ramblin around... bouncin off the storage bins, so to write... [beeg Texican grins] Yes, I still prefer
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 17, 2009
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                          Good friend Sarah, et al

                          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Chuck,
                          >
                          > Well, this must have been a really old message, probably almost 10 yrs old like the list!
                          >
                          > > >S:... Of course, in between any moments of awareness
                          > > >there are bound to be the doubts and confusions and worrying, >especially in
                          > > >the beginning when it's not 'firm'...Confidence has to grow >w/understanding
                          > > >too. I'm also finding the reminders here v.useful.
                          > > >Sarah
                          > >
                          > > C: Still true???
                          > ...
                          > S: (corrected one grammar typo!)
                          >
                          > And then, still true!!
                          >
                          > Are you reading through the archives? If so, do you know how to download/scroll through them easily? If not, ask pt (and Connie) here and they'll be able to explain again. I remember Rob M downloaded the entire lot onto his hard-drive to be able to read off-line.
                          >
                          > (Also, if anyone needs advice anytime on how to download recent posts for reading off-line or printing, please ask us.)
                          >
                          > Metta
                          >
                          > Sarah
                          > =========
                          >

                          C: Well, sort of just ramblin' around... bouncin' off the storage bins, so to write... [beeg Texican grins]

                          Yes, I still prefer good old hard copy [Sorry, my tree-huggin' friends. I can only change so far!!! (Frowns to self)]

                          Please provide the procedure. Thanks.

                          ...

                          Sarah, may you and yours have happy holidays and holy days this season.

                          peace...

                          metta (maitri),

                          Chuck
                        • ptaus1
                          Hi Chuck and all, ... There are several ways to download the messages: 1. While you are on dsg message list, then you can just go File- Save Page As in your
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 17, 2009
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                            Hi Chuck and all,

                            > > Are you reading through the archives? If so, do you know how to download/scroll through them easily? If not, ask pt (and Connie) here and they'll be able to explain again. I remember Rob M downloaded the entire lot onto his hard-drive to be able to read off-line.
                            >
                            > C: Please provide the procedure. Thanks.

                            There are several ways to download the messages:

                            1. While you are on dsg message list, then you can just go File->Save Page As in your browser's top menu bar. For this to be useful, you'd need to be in the expanded display mode so that you can see all the 30 messages open on one page as scrollable text - on how to do this, please see my message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/103290

                            2. You can go to www.dhammastudygroup.org where all the messages from this list are archived in batches of 250 messages - so by clicking on any of message links there, and then going File->Save, you'll be able to download 250 messages at a time. Comparing between options 1. and 2., aside from the number of messages increasing from 30 to 250, option 2 gives a simple .txt file which is smaller than .html and also contains less extraneous coding (like html, links, formatting, etc)

                            3. Connie kindly made a second archive for the dsg messages on http://www.wuala.com/nichicon where there are 1000 messages per batch, instead of 250. So downloading will be 4 times easier. At the moment there are 4 directories there, and the messages are in the "dsgPosts_txt" folder.

                            4. I'm pretty sure that there is a way to download the entire "dsgPosts_txt" folder on connie's site, so all 100000+ messages in one go, depending on the browser and Java applet you have, but I had no time to explore this option yet, will let you know when I do.

                            5. You can use a software that's made for downloading entire websites, while preserving their structure, links, etc. Of course, these are never 100% accurate, though I think that in the case of a simple html website like www.dhammastudygroup.org, there shouldn't be any problems. The software applications I heard about in this regard are:
                            http://www.httrack.com/
                            http://www.sitesucker.us/home.html
                            But I haven't used these so can't vouch for them or explain how/if they'll work properly.

                            Please ask if more info is needed.

                            Best wishes
                            pt
                          • charlest
                            Good friend pt, Warm thanks for the info. metta (maitri), Chuck ... ................. deleted by C
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 17, 2009
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                              Good friend pt,

                              Warm thanks for the info.

                              metta (maitri),

                              Chuck

                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Chuck and all,
                              >

                              ................. deleted by C
                            • sarah
                              Hi Chuck (pt & all), [Yes, I prefer to read hard copy too, away from the computer - one can use recycled, double-sided paper at least....and share with one s
                              Message 14 of 17 , Dec 18, 2009
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                                Hi Chuck (pt & all),

                                [Yes, I prefer to read hard copy too, away from the computer - one can use recycled, double-sided paper at least....and share with one's family and friends if possible!]

                                Steps we follow for downloading recent posts:

                                1. Go to DSG homepage
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/

                                2. Click on messages and make sure they're showing in summary/individual messages, with the most recent on top

                                3. Click on the subject heading of the message you last read and it will show up.

                                4. Click on 'message list' at the top right under 'start topic' and the last message read will now be at the top of the list.

                                5. Click on 'expand' at top left

                                6. Click on 'sort by date' at top right

                                7. Click on 'newer' at top right, and you should then have all the messages ready to copy, starting at the one following the last one you read.

                                7. I then copy into 'notepad' and then to a word file, condense and cut out all the unnecessary parts and spaces to minimise the pages and print out from there.

                                8. If there were more than 30 messages, after downloading into the word file, go back to your same place on the website and just click 'newer' again at top right and the next 30 will be ready to copy.
                                ****
                                Pls let me know if I've made any mistakes. It sounds complicated, but is very simple when you do it regularly!

                                pt may find another way and of course one can wait for Connie to do the updating on dhammastudygroup.org or the other back-up site, but I don't.
                                *****
                                Metta

                                Sarah
                                ========
                              • charlest
                                Good friend Sarah, et al ... ... Warm thanks for information. metta (maitri), Chuck
                                Message 15 of 17 , Dec 18, 2009
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                                  Good friend Sarah, et al

                                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Chuck (pt & all),
                                  >
                                  > [Yes, I prefer to read hard copy too, away from the computer - one can use recycled, double-sided paper at least....and share with one's family and friends if possible!]
                                  >
                                  > Steps we follow for downloading recent posts:
                                  >
                                  > 1. Go to DSG homepage
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/
                                  >
                                  > 2. Click on messages and make sure they're showing in summary/individual messages, with the most recent on top
                                  >
                                  > 3. Click on the subject heading of the message you last read and it will show up.
                                  >
                                  > 4. Click on 'message list' at the top right under 'start topic' and the last message read will now be at the top of the list.
                                  >
                                  > 5. Click on 'expand' at top left
                                  >
                                  > 6. Click on 'sort by date' at top right
                                  >
                                  > 7. Click on 'newer' at top right, and you should then have all the messages ready to copy, starting at the one following the last one you read.
                                  >
                                  > 7. I then copy into 'notepad' and then to a word file, condense and cut out all the unnecessary parts and spaces to minimise the pages and print out from there.
                                  >
                                  > 8. If there were more than 30 messages, after downloading into the word file, go back to your same place on the website and just click 'newer' again at top right and the next 30 will be ready to copy.
                                  > ****
                                  > Pls let me know if I've made any mistakes. It sounds complicated, but is very simple when you do it regularly!
                                  >
                                  > pt may find another way and of course one can wait for Connie to do the updating on dhammastudygroup.org or the other back-up site, but I don't.
                                  > *****
                                  > Metta
                                  >
                                  > Sarah
                                  > ========
                                  >
                                  ...

                                  Warm thanks for information.

                                  metta (maitri),

                                  Chuck
                                • ptaus1
                                  Dear Sarah, Thanks for this. I don t really know a better way, as I ve never printed the posts (prefer electronic), but it looks fine to me. The only thing I
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Dec 20, 2009
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                                    Dear Sarah,

                                    Thanks for this. I don't really know a better way, as I've never printed the posts (prefer electronic), but it looks fine to me. The only thing I might suggest is to try printing straight from the browser instead of having to select and paste into notepad/word. Though I imagine the print might not be as neat as when edited in word.

                                    Best wishes
                                    pt

                                    > Steps we follow for downloading recent posts:
                                    >
                                    > 1. Go to DSG homepage
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/
                                    >
                                    > 2. Click on messages and make sure they're showing in summary/individual messages, with the most recent on top
                                    >
                                    > 3. Click on the subject heading of the message you last read and it will show up.
                                    >
                                    > 4. Click on 'message list' at the top right under 'start topic' and the last message read will now be at the top of the list.
                                    >
                                    > 5. Click on 'expand' at top left
                                    >
                                    > 6. Click on 'sort by date' at top right
                                    >
                                    > 7. Click on 'newer' at top right, and you should then have all the messages ready to copy, starting at the one following the last one you read.
                                    >
                                    > 7. I then copy into 'notepad' and then to a word file, condense and cut out all the unnecessary parts and spaces to minimise the pages and print out from there.
                                    >
                                    > 8. If there were more than 30 messages, after downloading into the word file, go back to your same place on the website and just click 'newer' again at top right and the next 30 will be ready to copy.
                                    > ****
                                    > Pls let me know if I've made any mistakes. It sounds complicated, but is very simple when you do it regularly!
                                    >
                                    > pt may find another way and of course one can wait for Connie to do the updating on dhammastudygroup.org or the other back-up site, but I don't.
                                    > *****
                                    > Metta
                                    >
                                    > Sarah
                                    > ========
                                    >
                                  • jonoabb
                                    Hi pt, Sarah and All ... Pasting text into Word that has been copied from the list opened in IE or Firefox appears in Word as a table which then has to be
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Dec 22, 2009
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                                      Hi pt, Sarah and All

                                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" <ptaus1@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Sarah,
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for this. I don't really know a better way, as I've never printed the posts (prefer electronic), but it looks fine to me. The only thing I might suggest is to try printing straight from the browser instead of having to select and paste into notepad/word. Though I imagine the print might not be as neat as when edited in word.
                                      > ===============

                                      Pasting text into Word that has been copied from the list opened in IE or Firefox appears in Word as a table which then has to be converted into text. The reason for pasting into Notepad first is to get rid of the table formatting before pasting into Word.

                                      However, the same text copied from Opera can be pasted directly into Word without appearing in table format. So Opera is the most convenient browser to use if doing this copying and pasting regularly.

                                      Jon

                                      > > 1. Go to DSG homepage
                                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/
                                      > > ...
                                      > > 7. I then copy into 'notepad' and then to a word file, condense and cut out all the unnecessary parts and spaces to minimise the pages and print out from there.
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