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Re: Phil, Near and far enemies of Brahma-Viharas

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  • buddhatrue
    ... ... Friend Rob M (and Howard), I am not sure that the Visuddhimagga is correct about this matter of jealousy being completely eliminated at the
    Message 1 of 39 , Jun 1 12:25 AM
      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...>
      wrote:
      > Hi Howard,
      <snip>
      > The fetters map into the akusala cittas as follows:
      > - Ignorance: eliminated in stages as mentioned above
      > - Restlessness: eliminated by Arahant
      > - Greed: eliminated in stages as mentioned above
      > - Wrong View: eliminated by Sotapanna
      > - Conceit: eliminated by Arahant
      > - Hatred: eliminated in stages as mentioned above
      > - Jealousy: eliminated by Sotapanna
      > - Selfishness: eliminated by Sotapanna
      > - Doubt: eliminated by Sotapanna
      >
      >
      > The source in the Visuddhimagga.
      >
      > Metta,
      > Rob M :-)

      Friend Rob M (and Howard),

      I am not sure that the Visuddhimagga is correct about this matter of
      jealousy being completely eliminated at the Sotapanna stage. Is
      this information found in a sutta? From my understanding, the root
      of jealousy is desire and only an arahant has eliminated desire.
      For example, in DN 21 "Sakka's Questions", the Buddha explains to
      the king of the devas, Sakka, that the cause of all the hate and
      violence in the various world systems is jealousy and avarice. He
      further explains that jealousy and avarice are caused by liking and
      disliking; liking and disliking are caused by desire; desire is
      caused by thinking; thinking is caused by the tendency to mental
      proliferation; mental proliferation leads to random thinking which
      then leads to desire. The Buddha further explains that the only way
      to eliminate this sequence is to foster thinking which leads to
      wholesome mental states, not unwholesome mental states.

      I could be wrong but this implies to me that jealousy is eliminated
      only in the arahant. Sure, the Sotapanna may have less of a degree
      of jealousy, just as he/she has less of a degree of anger and hate,
      but I find it hard to believe that jealousy would be completely
      eliminated at the Sotapanna stage. What do you think?

      Metta, James
    • nina van gorkom
      Hi Sarah and Howard, ... N: I understand. If possible I also look for suttas, in order to demonstrate the unity of the Tipitaka. I looked in my Pali dict PED
      Message 39 of 39 , Jun 6 11:40 AM
        Hi Sarah and Howard,
        op 01-06-2004 13:22 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...:

        > Inasmuch as the commentaries are not Buddha word, and inasmuch as I
        > don't have full certainty that the Abhidhamma Pitaka isn't a later, synoptic,
        > systematic codification of the Buddhadhamma, when I come across something that
        > seems to go beyond what is in the suttas, and not just in explanatory detail
        > but in the items included, I am inclined to seek sutta sources for it or to
        > seek
        > an explanation of the reasoning that led to it.
        N: I understand. If possible I also look for suttas, in order to demonstrate
        the unity of the Tipitaka.
        I looked in my Pali dict PED for more references. In different locations
        there are different ways of classifying the fetters. Classifications are not
        rigid, they can be different for stressing different aspects. They are also
        classified as eight. The Teacher used endless methods (naya, pariyaaya) for
        the sake of those capable of being led to enlightenment (bhuddha veneyya). I
        do not see such differences as contradictions.
        The fetters are classified as five lower fetters and five higher fetters in
        the Vibhanga Ch 17, §940, and also in the Suttas. In another classification
        (as mentioned in Dhsg and in the Vibhanga Ch 17, § 969) they include envy
        and stinginess.
        Sarah:
        Quotes:Vatthupana Sutta, MN7 (The Simile of the
        Cloth) and commentary notes as provided by Nyanaponika in a wheel
        publication.
        Interesting details. The sixteen defilements are not exactly the ten
        fetters. There is something confusing in the transl of:
        7. issa, envy
        8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness
        N: macchariya means avarice or stinginess, not envy or jealousy, which stand
        for the Pali issa.
        Indeed, we need the commentary here for the understanding of the details.
        In the suttas the sotapanna is sometimes designated by different wordings:
        who has unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem and lives openhanded,
        without stinginess (thus, he has eradicated stinginess or avarice), who has
        crossed over doubt without someone else's help, who has the pure Dhamma eye.
        But the last one is also used for those who have attained higher stages of
        enlightenment.
        Nina.
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