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Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space

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  • Sarah
    Dear Friends, I sent a few brief comments back to Bhikkhu Bodhi in response to his on this subject and I ll pass on any further feedback if he gives any. I d
    Message 1 of 86 , Mar 25, 2004
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      Dear Friends,

      I sent a few brief comments back to Bhikkhu Bodhi in response to his on
      this subject and I'll pass on any further feedback if he gives any. I'd
      also be glad of any other comments on my logic or detail from any
      commentaries that Suan, Nina or anyone may have.

      (My comments are rather cryptic, but I'm happy to elaborate on them)
      *****
      >
      BB: > On the status of the space element: I tried to do
      > some research on this, but
      > could not come up with a conclusive answer. You may
      > be correct. I had always
      > assumed that the defining mark of a
      > paramattha-dhamma according to the
      > Theravada Abhidhamma system is sabhAvato vijjamAna
      > ("existing through
      > intrinsic nature"), but your challenge makes me
      > think this may not be
      > correct.
      .....
      S: I’d like to make a few comments with respect if I may and perhaps I can
      put them in point form. I’m not sure if any logic will be apparent and
      please ignore it if you’d prefer or are busy. Of course comments on any
      errors are most welcome.

      1.CMA, 1#2 Fourfold paramattha-dhammas (inc *all* rupas as I understand)

      2. Summary & Exposition (Wijeratne & Gethin transl)p7 explanation to above
      defines rupas here as ‘the aggregate of materiality differentiated as the
      elements and dependent [materialities] (upaadaruupa)

      3. CMA,V1#5 28 Rupas inc. anipphannaruupa inc in upaadaruupa

      4. CMA V1, 2, guide 2 Upaadaaya ruupa ‘are material phenomena derived
      from, or dependent upon, the four great essentials. these are twenty-four
      in number.’

      5. Exposition p230 refers to conditioned nature etc of all rupas.

      6. Vism 1, n14 from Pm 40-41
      “ ‘But these are simply modes of interpreting (sannivesaakaara) the kinds
      of materiality derived from the (four) primaries that are interpreted
      (sannivi.t.tha) in such and such wise; for apart from that there is in the
      ultimate sense [paramattho] no such thing as a hand and so on’.”

      I assume ‘that’ refers to the four primaries and derived rupas here.

      7. Paramattha dhammas refer to the same realities as the khandhas +
      nibbana.
      Vism X1V,72 under ‘the Aggregates’
      “So this derived matter of twenty-four sorts and the aforesaid matter of
      the primary elements, which is of four sorts, together amount to
      twenty-eight sorts, neither more nor less.

      And all that [matter of twenty-eight sorts] is of one kind as ‘not
      root-cause, root-causeless, dissociated from root-cause, with conditions,
      mundane, subject to cankers’ (Dhs#5840, and so on.”

      8. As I understand, space (akaasaa ruupa) has a characteristic which can
      be known and is included in the khandhas, the aayatanas and the dhaatus -
      all of which consist of paramattha dhammas only.
      ......
      BB: >It would not be enough, though, merely to
      > bring forth rational
      > arguments, as Nina does; one would have to quote
      > texts that establish that
      > space is paramattha without being sabhAvato
      > vijjamAna.
      ....
      S: Going back to the first two points above, surely here in the prologue
      to CMA and its commentary, paramattha is clearly defined in terms of all
      cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana without exceptions and as elaborated
      on in the main text?
      .....
      BB: >Such distinctions are
      > unlikely to be made even in the Abhidhamma
      > commentaries (though I might be
      > wrong). One would have to go down to texts of a
      > still more technical nature,
      > like the Abhidhamma tikas (sub-commentaries), and it
      > is difficult to find
      > anyone who knows these well.
      ....
      S: This is where I’m very grateful for those translations (like the
      excellent one of Sammohavinodanii) that are available. I checked the
      Kathavatthu and comy for more detail, esp in the first chapter where it
      discusses how a person is not a paramattha dhamma in the way that
      khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus etc are. But only some examples are given of
      each, so it may not satisfy you.
      .....
      BB: >Here I
      > don't have access to
      > these texts, and the headache makes delving into
      > such abstruse but
      > interesting questions difficult.
      .....
      S: Sometimes abstruse questions lead to others too! Please take care of
      your headaches.
      <
      *****
      Metta,

      Sarah
      ======

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    • m. nease
      Hi Sadhu (Your Name?), All the below is correct as I understand it, except that the prompter can be I as well as another . Both still concepts (or
      Message 86 of 86 , Jul 30, 2005
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        Hi Sadhu (Your Name?),

        All the below is correct as I understand it, except that the prompter can be
        "I" as well as "another". Both still concepts (or designations). So the
        citta and its attendant cetasikas are dhammas even though the prompter is
        not.

        Nice to meet you.

        mike

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Sadhu Chew" <chewsadhu@...>
        To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AM
        Subject: [dsg] (unknown)


        > Pls explain 'prompted' & 'unprompted' in the ultimate sense,
        > since abhidhamma deals with ultimate realities.
        >
        > example:
        > If 'somebody' ask me to do something, then i do.
        > It is prompted citta arises in me.
        >
        > question:
        > (1) Is the citta prompted by 'somebody'?
        > (2) or, prompted by the 'sound'(saddarammana)?
        > (3) or, prompted by the 'mental object'(dhammarammana)?
        >
        > note:
        > (1) If prompted by 'somebody', 'somebody' is just a concept in the mental
        > process which only happen in the manodvaravithi.
        > (2) If prompted by 'sound', then all the Javana process in the
        > pancadvaravithi are only arise with prompted citta.
        > (3) If prompted by the 'mental object'..... which means all the Javana
        > process in the pancadvaravithi are only arise with unprompted citta.
        >
        > When someone can understand what other says, it is already in the
        > mind-door process (manodvaravithi).



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