- Dear Jim
thanks for the information it is very interesting and useful.
One ofthe things I have heard is that the term nirodha was understood
in ancient vedic times to be a quality produced in a sacred fire when
it was protected from the environment: i.e. wind, rain, leaves, twigs
and insects, etc. This kind of flame was seen as a better flame to
practice sacrifice with. It seemed to me that this was a simile for
reducing the hinderances to practice, sensual desire, ill-will, etc.
I liked the idea of Buddha using terms that had more than one
dimension to their meaning. Remove the hinderances to the flame
burning properly so you can see what fuel is causing the flame to be
produced. remove that fuel and you remove the flame.
Well I found in interesting anyway.
thanks again for your help
--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jima@b...> wrote:
> Dear Antony,
> I take it that your query on the term 'nirodha' has something to do
> interest in its etymology especially when I see that you divide the
> into NI + RODHA. I'm not too familiar with the word myself so I
> search about for some commentarial explanation. I have found a good
> point for exploring this word with some useful information provided
> Visuddhimagga (XVI.18) in reference to the term as used in the
> truth: dukkha-nirodha. In this passage we learn that NI has the
> 'absence' (abhaava). In a traditional grammar like the Saddaniiti,
> a section on the prefixes (upasagga-s) that gives the various
senses of each
> prefix. For NI we find that 'abhaava' is listed as one of the 14
> given there.
> RODH is derived from the verbal root RUDH. The Dhaatumaala (Garland
> Roots -- one of the three major sections of the Saddaniiti) gives
> meaning as: 'aavara.na' which does not exactly have a clear
meaning for me.
> The PED gives the meaning of aavara.na as: hindrance, obstruction
> might do for now. RUDH becomes RODH by way of the addition of the
> primary affix 'a' (gha~n) which changes the root vowel U into O
> strengthening (gu.na). RUDH + A > RODHA. For the word RODHA the PED
> gives: obstruction, stopping. In the next entry for the same word
> given: bank, dam -- which one can see is connected to the first
> meaning and could very well have been included in the first entry.
> passage at Vism XVI.18 defines RODHA as 'caaraka'. ~Naa.namoli
> RODHA as 'constraint' and 'caaraka' as 'prison'. In checking with
> Sanskrit Dictionary, "bondage, fetter" could also be considered for
> 'caaraka'. I'm not sure what word would best fit with 'absence of'
> only thinking of something like 'absence of obstruction' for now.
> passage also gives an alternative meaning for 'nirodha'
as 'anuppaada' --
> non-arising. So now there is more to go on for further study.
> I hope you find these notes useful in your worthwhile investigation
> term 'nirodha'.
> Best wishes,
> Jim A.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: abrennan@y... <abrennan@y...>
> To: dhammastudygroup@y... <dhammastudygroup@y...>
> Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 8:46 PM
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha
> >I am interested in this term: Nirodha
> >does anyone have any information on the background of the term
> >I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I don't
> >disagree with that at all, I know that there are other dimensions
> >the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated into the
> >limitations of English.
> >I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and Rodha,
> >meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something like
> >I would be interested in your comments.
- dear abrennan,
i dont know the exact english equivalents ,
i stated the pali words so of anyone has a pali CD the words can be searched.
I am sorry i missed one word in that phrase,(tanhakkhayo)
the complete phrase is,
etam santam , etam paneetam, yadidam?
sabba-samkhaara-samatho , sabbuupadhipatinissaggo , tanhakkhayo , virago ,
nirodho , nibbanam.
etam = this
santham => santa+am => sanskrit Shanta => Calm?
paneetam=> paneeta + am => sanskrit = Praneetha => the normal meaning is
This is calm and this is sweet...
Yadidam? = What?
sabba samkhaara samatho => All fabrications (sabba samkhaara) samatha ( this is
something like calming down-..?)
sabba upadhi patinissaggo => letting go of all 'upadhi's ( i dont know a
suitable english word for upadhi )
tanhakkhayo => tanhakkhaya ->ending of tanha
virago=> viraga-> non- attachment
nirodho=> nirodha-> stopping ( this may mean the stopping of the cyclical
nibbanam=>nibbana-> this is the extinguishing ( ie. a fire)
Thanks for reposting this--I nearly missed it. Bing,
--- bruce <bmalcolm@...> wrote:
> robert: this is the most succinct restatement of__________________________________________________
> paticcasamupada i think i've ever read, re:
> > To look at the fire analogy in a simple way: the
> fuel is craving
> > and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the
> khandas). Once
> > that fuel is no longer being added (upon
> attainment of arahant)
> > the fire will soon die out(parinibbana).
> it's suddenly so obvious:
> it's the craving after nama and rupa
> which conditions their arising.
> cut the craving after nama and rupa,
> cut ignorance of why they are not
> worth craving...
> **and they don't arise**
> many thanks!
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- yes thanks for posting this Robert
i have heard that the principles, qualities and processes of fire was
seen as of critical importance to vedic people. Buddha was aware of
this as he was born and lived as a member of that community. I have
an interest in his use of the way Buddha used the language and
religious and spiritual practices of the times to communicate the
--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick
> --- abrennan@y... wrote:
> > My understanding is that the term Nirodha, like the term
> where in use at the time of Buddha for the purposes of
> qualities of fire. I understand that when Buddha used these
> they had an extra deep meaning for those in the community he was
> brought up in. For example I have heard that the followers of
> the Vedic tradition at
> the time understood that fire existed without fuel and that
> flame was
> produced when fire attached itself to fuel. Buddha used these
> metaphors to have them understand what he was teaching them.
> also being a quality of fire, or describing a quality. I am
> interested in what that understanding was that Buddha was
> to them in using this term.>>>>>>>
> Dear Antony,
> The metaphor of fire is a very good one to help us of today-not
> just those ancient ones- understand nibbana.
> There are only 4 types of paramattha dhamma (Fundamental
> elements ). These are citta cetasika, rupa and nibbana. The
> first three can be classified in different ways- such as the
> khandas- aggregates, dhatus- elements, ayatanas-sensefields, Or
> as simply nama and rupa. These fundamental phenomena are in us
> and around us- there is nothing else. They arise and pass away
> so fast that we have the illusion that "we' exist, that there
> are things that last such as cars and computers. This is a deep
> perversion of perception that is so hard to overcome.
> To look at the fire analogy in a simple way: the fuel is craving
> and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the khandas). Once
> that fuel is no longer being added (upon attainment of arahant)
> the fire will soon die out(parinibbana).
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