Re: Where in the Tipitaka?
> I don't know, is this helpful or just satisfied my curiosity.Dear Num,
Very helpful, so maybe both? The citta is a very intricate thing that
only the person could rally know, isn't it. By the way, on ambiguity,
Gayan introduced us to the vancaka dhamma, (38 kinds of 'disguised
citta') which might interest you. I think you might search our
archives for them, and I am preparing to put the list and its
translation in the website also. <http://www.DhammaStudy.com>. Will
notify the group when done, as usual,
- Dear Sarah,
>Jim, I could have done rather better too if I'd read'anga' also has the meaning of factor, limb, member.
>the whole section in the Vism. more thoroughly at the
>Anyway, this is what I think I've learnt from
>following your references:
>1. dhuta- ascetic, shaken off, ascetic in the sense of
>one who shakes of defilements (kilesa)
>2. anga- practice
>3. dhutanga- ascetic practice, set of practicesI not so sure about the appropriateness of ascetic or asceticism either.
>leading to a state appropriate to a dhuta, i.e. 13
>dhutangas as Num listed
>4. dhutadhamma- ascetic state, i.e. 5 qualities or
>states mentioned before, starting with fewness of
>wishes, having shaken off the defilements. These apply
>to either a bhikkhu or layperson.
>5. dhutavaada- one who inculcates asceticism as above.
>(I'm not sure the terms ascetic and asceticism aren't
>a little misleading, but that's another story).
>Is this about right, Jim? Originally this issue wasIt should be noted that Mahakassapa was foremost of those who preached
>raised because I mentioned in a translation that
>MahaKassapa was known to be foremost in 'shaking off'.
asceticism (dhammavaada) according to A i 23. Your last sentence is
referring to 'dhuta' only, but I would assume that he was foremost in that
>One point I'm a little confused by is that earlier youI only wrote one earlier message on this topic to dsg and I don't see where
>(Jim) mentioned the Pali for excellence in 'shaking
>off' was dhutanga and I should have thought it should
>be dhutadhamma..., but not too important..
I mentioned the Pali for excellence in 'shaking off' as dhutanga. I did
mention dhutanga but gave no translation of the term. I was only giving
references to where you could find more information on the terms I listed.
As I remember, it began with a verse you mentioned from the Theragatha
(v.1087) where the word there is 'dhutaguna' which Norman translates as 'the
qualities of shaking off' and I thought that these qualities could be the
five dhutadhammas. On looking at ThagA comm. I think I may be wrong as
there is only the mention of aara~n~nika, etc. (dhutangas 6-13 if I'm
reading it correctly). I know that gu.na (quality) is one of the 20 or more
shades of meaning for dhamma and that is why I made the connection between
dhutagu.na and dhutadhamma. But the comm. is suggesting a different
connection and I don't understand why.
>The reason this sutta was raised originally (by Teng)I checked this commentarial note at SA ii 205 and my rough reading of the
>was with regard to the importance of jhanas. The sutta
>goes on to mention 5 conditions that lead to 'the
>longevity of the true Dhamma'. The 5th one is samadhi
>(concentration) and the comm. note adds 'One dwells
>without reverence for concentration when one does not
>attain the eight attainments (attha samapattiyo).'
"Without producing the eight attainments or, furthermore, without making the
effort to produce them is called 'without reverence for concentration'."