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  • rjkjp1
    ... not ... what ... what ... ==================================================================== Dear Michael, The Netti-pakarana (587) Tattha Bhagava
    Message 1 of 56 , Mar 1, 2004
      > <mbeisert@h...> wrote:
      > > RobertK:
      > >
      > > Now the only path
      > >
      > > available is that of 'insight alone' - the sukkhvipassaka (see
      > >
      > > nettipakarana). The samma-samdhi that comes with this path is
      > at
      > >
      > > all the same as the samma-samdhi associated with the mundane
      > jhanas.
      > >
      > > Michael:
      > >
      > > I gather that jhanas has been discussed at length in the list in
      > the past, but for newcomers like me, would you care to explain
      > you mean with the samma samadhi of a dry insight practitioner and
      > the samma samadhi of mundane jhanas. . Could you also expand on
      > the netti says? It is the first time I hear this.
      Dear Michael,
      The Netti-pakarana (587)
      "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa
      Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava
      vipassanam upadassati.
      Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties;
      The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium
      faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of

      Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight
      [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to
      At this time (acording to the texts) there are only
      padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life,
      although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada
      commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many
      details. Only the very wise ones with great accumulations could
      master jhana and use it as the base for insight.
      Nevertheless all types of kusala - of which samatha is one of the
      highest- should be developed as all kusala assists insight.

      From Ledi sayadaw

      ""(1) A Ugghatitannu : an individual who· encounters a Buddha
      in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the
      Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse.
      (2) A Vipancitannu: an individual who · encounters a Buddha in
      person, but · who is capable of attaining the Paths and the Fruits
      only when the short discourse is expounded to him at some length.

      At the present day, only the following Neyya and Padaparama classes
      of individuals remain.
      (3) A Neyya : an individual who needs · to study the sermon and the
      exposition, and then · to practise the provisions contained therein
      for 7 days to 60 years, to attain the Paths and the Fruits during
      this lifetime if he tries hard with guidance from the right teacher.
      (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and
      the Fruits within this lifetime can attain release from worldly ills
      in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or
      vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva
      within the present Buddha Sasana. ""endquote Ledi sayadaw.

      The commentaries on the Vinaya Pitaka and the Anguttara-nikaya
      indicate will be one thousand years for Arahats who attain mastery
      of jhana with abhinna, one thousand years for Arahats who are
      sukkhavipassaka, one thousand years for Non-returners, one thousand
      years for Once-returners, and one thousand years for Stream-winners.

    • nina van gorkom
      Hi Larry, I always hesitate to say much about the Dependent Origination, although I think that we should see it as pertaining to our life now. Take:
      Message 56 of 56 , Mar 13, 2004
        Hi Larry,
        I always hesitate to say much about the Dependent Origination, although I
        think that we should see it as pertaining to our life now.
        Take: consciousness, vi~n~naa.na conditions nama rupa. Nama are cetasikas.
        We see in Vis. Ch XVII, 207, that consciousness here stands for vipakacitta:
        at rebirth and throughout life. We have to consider the different moments of
        vipaka and then see: what type of condition these are for what types of
        cetasikas and rupas. And also: by which ways (of the 24 classes) the
        conditioning factor is a condition for the dhamma that is conditioned. Take
        seeing: it is conditioned by kamma of the past by way of kamma-condition and
        by strong dependence condition. It is conditioned by visible object by way
        of object-condition. It is conditioned by the eyebase by way of
        support-condition. It is conditioned by the accompanying cetasikas (contact,
        feeling, etc.) by way of conascent condition and other conditions. In its
        turn it conditions nama, and these are here in the context of Dependent
        Origination the accompanying cetasikas of contact, feeling, etc. And seeing
        also conditions the succeeding citta by way of contiguity condition. As the
        Vis. states: no single fruit from a single cause. That makes it so
        complicated! And in the D.P. not all conditions are mentioned, but the more
        obvious are given.

        op 06-03-2004 15:47 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...:

        > First, do you agree that from "contact" to "clinging" in Dependent
        > Arising is the same as consciousness process? If so, what role
        > does "clinging" play? My contention is that it is accumulation.
        N: As explained in the Vis. XVII, 228 etc. and also in Dispeller of Delusion
        I, p. 219, it seems that contact and feeling are on the vipaka side. (Ven.
        Nyanatiloka, in B. Dict. ,sees it differently and also includes kusala and
        akusala feelings.) Then craving, clinging occur during the moments of
        javana, and at such moments there is accumulation of tendencies or
        performing of kamma.
        L: Second, I can see why you would want to maintain the distinguishing
        > characteristics of lobha and moha, but it seems to me in Dependent
        > Arising all three root cittas are included in the category
        > of "thirst" (tanha). What about that?
        N: The Dependent Origination teaches us that we are in the cycle at this
        moment. Because of ignorance (mentioned first) and clinging or thirst. We
        are clinging to life at this moment, to all sense objects. That is tanha is
        a link.
        Sankhara, formations, includes all kinds of akusala and also kusala.
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