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Re: [dsg] Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception

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  • LBIDD@webtv.net
    Hi Nori (and a question for Nina), Re: In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself... Looking at the sutta again, the object of
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 1, 2003
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      Hi Nori (and a question for Nina),

      Re: "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of
      itself..."

      Looking at the sutta again, the object of citta anupassana seems to me
      to be a general state of mind rather than individual thoughts. saraaga.m
      citta.m translated by Soma Thera as "the consciousness with lust" could
      be interpreted as a lusty state of mind rather than a lusty thought.
      mahaggata.m citta.m translated as "the state of consciousness become
      great" refers to jhana but probably not the jhana nimitta (conceptual
      "sign" which is the object of jhana). The object of mindfulness would be
      instead the general unbounded state of consciousness that is jhana.

      "Citta" can be either mind or consciousness. I think "mind" would be a
      good translation for citta in this case. It isn't exactly the
      consciousness khandha that is the object of mindfulness. The object is
      more of a general nature.

      Nina, what do you think?

      Larry
    • nina van gorkom
      Hi Larry, ... N: just lobha-mulacitta, citta rooted in lobha, akusala citta. It can be desire for sense objects or concepts, anything. L: mahaggata.m citta.m
      Message 2 of 4 , Sep 2, 2003
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        Hi Larry,
        op 02-09-2003 05:04 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...:
        > Re: "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of
        > itself..."
        >
        > Looking at the sutta again, the object of citta anupassana seems to me
        > to be a general state of mind rather than individual thoughts. saraaga.m
        > citta.m translated by Soma Thera as "the consciousness with lust" could
        > be interpreted as a lusty state of mind rather than a lusty thought.
        N: just lobha-mulacitta, citta rooted in lobha, akusala citta. It can be
        desire for sense objects or concepts, anything.

        L: mahaggata.m citta.m translated as "the state of consciousness become
        > great" refers to jhana but probably not the jhana nimitta (conceptual
        > "sign" which is the object of jhana). The object of mindfulness would be
        > instead the general unbounded state of consciousness that is jhana.
        N: jhanacitta. Unbounded is used for a specifi jhana.
        L: "Citta" can be either mind or consciousness. I think "mind" would be a
        > good translation for citta in this case. It isn't exactly the
        > consciousness khandha that is the object of mindfulness. The object is
        > more of a general nature.
        N: I shall quote from my meanings of dhamma study:
        >
        <The words citta, mano and vi~n~naa.na are the same in meaning, they are the
        paramattha dhamma that is citta, consciousness. We read in the ³Kindred
        Sayings² (II, Nidaana-sa.myutta, Ch VII, 61:<Ya.m ca kho eta.m bhikkhave
        vuccati citta.m iti pi mano iti pi vi~n~na.m iti pi... Yet this, monks, what
        we call thought (citta), what we call mind, what we call consciousness...>
        However, in different contexts there is a differentiation of terms. The
        aggregate of consciousness is called vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, and it includes
        all cittas. For seeing-consciousness, the word cakkhuvi~n~naa.na is used.>
        Now about the fourth object of satipatthana, mindfulness of mental objects.
        I quote:
        <""dhammesu dhammaanupassii viharatii"ti-aadiisu (dii. ni. 2.373)
        nissattanijjiivataaya.m.
        and again, ³he abides watchful over certain dhammas²-dhamma implies absence
        of an entity or living soul.²....

        Remarks: The last sentence refers to the fourth Application of Mindfulness:
        contemplating dhammas in dhammas. All objects of mindfulness which have not
        been classified in the first three Applications of Mindfulness are
        classified in the fourth Application of Mindfulness. This Application
        includes the cetasikas which are the five hindrances, it includes the five
        khandhas, the six internal and the six external aayatanas (sense-bases), the
        seven factors of enlightenment and the four noble Truths. These are all
        dhammas without a living soul, they are not a person, not a being, not self.
        >
        Nina.
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