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RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom)

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  • Kom Tukovinit
    Hi Larry, Sorry for the slow response. I managed to fetch my copy out of the storage (along with other books), but my computer crashed recently, so haven t
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 2, 2003
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      Hi Larry,

      Sorry for the slow response. I managed to fetch my copy out of the storage
      (along with other books), but my computer crashed recently, so haven't
      gotten the opportunity to get back to this yet. I am responding to this not
      having looked at Vim yet...

      Vipassana-nana, or the insight knowledge, is the clear comprehension of the
      characteristics of realities. There are 16 levels, which are attainment
      levels, of clear comprehension starting with nama-rupa paricheta nana, or
      the separation of nama and rupa. What does insight knowledge cognitive of?
      The realities, the kandhas, the sense bases, and the dhatus, all realities
      (paramatha dhammas), and not the concepts (pannatti, or objects of
      thinking). How does Vipassana-nana come about? It comes from the
      development of panna starting from panna at the listening level, at the
      thinking level, and at the practice level.

      There are many difficulties in learning about Vipassana. Firstly, vipassana
      is a clear comprehension of REALITIES. If we consider why the Buddha's
      teaching is said to be irrefutable, we can begin to understand what
      realities are. For example, when two people see a woman, one says she is
      pretty, and the other says she isn't. This fact of prettiness is refutable.
      The Buddha's teaching isn't like that. Aversion has the characteristic of
      repulsion of its object. When aversion arises, only a fool (well, moha or
      ignorance) would deny / be unaware of this characteristic which is
      irrefutable. The teachings of anicca (impermanence), dukha (suffering), and
      anatta (non-self, uncontrollability) are like this as well: they are
      irrefutable and inherent to realities.

      Second, vipassana is a CLEAR COMPREHENSION of realities. It is not thinking
      of realities. We may misunderstand our thinking of realities as
      vipassana-nana. For example, thinking that nothing is permanent is not the
      same as comprehending that nothing is permanent. Repeating to oneself about
      impermanence, or enumerating the things that we think are impermanent, is
      not vipassana-nana.

      Third, one doesn't jump from knowing nothing about realities to an
      immediate, clear comprehension of anicca, dukha, and anatta, unless one has
      been accumulating for a long time. Panna progresses in stages (hence the 16
      levels). It is impossible to have clear comprehension of anicca and dukkha
      without first the clear comprehension of nama and rupa.

      It's important to learn about the difference between kusala citta and
      akusala cittas. We have them throughout our daily life. Without more
      refined and thorough distinctions between the two, we often take akusala as
      kusala. For example, when we see a small child, and we pet him, is that
      petting born out of kindness or attachment? Kindness and attachment both
      are co nascent with either pleasant mental feeling (and piti, or happiness)
      or neutral mental feelings. The mental feeling alone cannot be used to
      distinguish between the two. Even moha-mula citta, consciousness rooted in
      ignorance, is also conascent with neutral mental feeling. When we feel calm
      and undisturbed, is that kusala citta or citta born out of ignorance?

      Kusala is free from defilements (kilesa). When the consciousness is kusala,
      it is said to be mental seclusion (seclusion, or viveka, are two: body and
      mental). It is secluded from defilements. For a bikkhu who lives near
      town, he is said to be secluded if he is not defiled. When is the mind free
      from defilement? Only when it is inclined toward dana (giving), sila
      (abstaining from bad deeds, completing good deeds), tranquil development, or
      insight development. When the mind is inclined toward other things, the
      mind is defiled.

      How do you know what I said above is true? It must match the Buddha
      teachings, and ultimately, realities. We should prove to ourselves if what
      one says matches / diverges from the Buddha teachings, and when one has
      enough wisdom to prove/disprove it, then one no longer has to rely on others
      in the development of panna.

      kom

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: LBIDD@... [mailto:LBIDD@...]
      > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 9:53 PM
      > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom)
      >
      >
      > Hi Kom,
      >
      > If you can't find your copy of Vism. maybe you could just give us your
      > understanding of insight knowledge (vipassana) and profitable
      > consciousness (kusala citta) just to get the ball rolling.
      >
    • LBIDD@webtv.net
      Thanks Kom, Well said. Bearing in mind that we will be analyzing these terms in detail latter, does anyone have anything to add or a question? Larry
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 2, 2003
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        Thanks Kom,

        Well said. Bearing in mind that we will be analyzing these terms in
        detail latter, does anyone have anything to add or a question?

        Larry
      • nina van gorkom
        Dear Larry and Kom, ... N: Yes, I always like it when Kom adds something, gives us extra reminders. I saved his post. I quote from it:
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 3, 2003
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          Dear Larry and Kom,
          op 03-08-2003 02:41 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...:

          > Thanks Kom,
          >
          > Well said. Bearing in mind that we will be analyzing these terms in
          > detail latter, does anyone have anything to add or a question?
          N: Yes, I always like it when Kom adds something, gives us extra reminders.
          I saved his post. I quote from it:

          <Second, vipassana is a CLEAR COMPREHENSION of realities. It is not
          thinking
          of realities. We may misunderstand our thinking of realities as
          vipassana-nana. For example, thinking that nothing is permanent is not the
          same as comprehending that nothing is permanent. Repeating to oneself about
          impermanence, or enumerating the things that we think are impermanent, is
          not vipassana-nana.

          Third, one doesn't jump from knowing nothing about realities to an
          immediate, clear comprehension of anicca, dukha, and anatta, unless one has
          been accumulating for a long time. Panna progresses in stages (hence the 16
          levels). It is impossible to have clear comprehension of anicca and dukkha
          without first the clear comprehension of nama and rupa.>
          This is an important point:
          <one doesn't jump from knowing nothing about realities to an
          immediate, clear comprehension of anicca, dukha, and anatta, unless one has
          been accumulating for a long time.>
          We like to jump, we find that the development is always too slow.
          Kom, do keep reminding us, with appreciation,
          Nina.
        • Kom Tukovinit
          Dear Larry, ... Well, the book doesn t shed more light (for me) about what panna in the first part really mean. However, the definition of panna (later, in 7)
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 8, 2003
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            Dear Larry,


            -----Original Message-----

            > Hi Kom,
            >
            > Would you care to explain "insight knowledge" and "profitable
            > consciousness" in the following sentence?
            >
            > Vism XIV, 2: What is understanding? Understanding (panna) is of many
            > sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it
            > all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would,
            > besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind
            > intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge
            > associated with profitable consciousness.
            >

            > 1) What is meant by understanding (panna) in the first part of this
            > paragraph?

            Well, the book doesn't shed more light (for me) about what panna in the
            first part really mean. However, the definition of panna (later, in 7)
            pretty much excludes everything else....

            > 2) It's pretty clear that insight knowledge is panna, but is it panna
            > confined to Satipatthana only?

            In 7), the insight knowledge is defined as: understanding has the
            characeristic of penetrating the individual essenses of states.

            kom
          • LBIDD@webtv.net
            Hi Kom, I guess we will find out soon enough what is insight knowledge. Could you say a little more on what is profitable consciousness (kusala citta)? Perhaps
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 8, 2003
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              Hi Kom,

              I guess we will find out soon enough what is insight knowledge. Could
              you say a little more on what is profitable consciousness (kusala
              citta)? Perhaps summarize the "Sila" section of the Visuddhimagga in a
              sentence or two?

              Larry

              Vism XIV, 2: What is understanding? Understanding (panna) is of many
              sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it
              all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would,
              besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind
              intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge
              associated with profitable consciousness.
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