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RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization

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  • Kom Tukovinit
    Dear Howard (Victor & Dave), Just one more comment to your post, Howard. ... I think this is the point that we keep converging to. I don t think we need to
    Message 1 of 69 , Jul 2, 2003
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      Dear Howard (Victor & Dave),

      Just one more comment to your post, Howard.

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: upasaka@... [mailto:upasaka@...]
      > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 5:19 AM

      > >
      > > I think you, Sarah, and Jon have gone over this
      > many times.
      > > I believe in causes and effects. The causes
      > for wisdom at
      > > the pati-pati level (practice, as normally
      > translated) are
      > > wisdom at listening and consideration level. The
      > > pre-requisite for reaching sotapanna is
      > association with the
      > > wise, listening to the true dhamma, wise
      > consideration, and
      > > practice accordingly (to the truth, as verified
      > by one own's
      > > wisdom). Nothing rises randomly as this would imply
      > > sankhata dhamma beyond conditionalities. The
      > 8-fold path
      > > comprises of all the mental factors arising at
      > the moment of
      > > mindfulness, which volition is not included (although
      > > co-arising), and one which is pre-eminently
      > brought about by
      > > wisdom (at the different levels). I think you
      > interpret the
      > > 8-fold path differently, so I think we will
      > disagree here.
      > -----------------------------------------------
      > Howard:
      > This is surely an area of disagreement.
      > You do, however, mention "
      > practice accordingly (to the truth, as verified
      > by one own's wisdom)". Such
      > practice requires exercise of volition,
      > determination, guarding the senses, right
      > effort.

      I think this is the point that we keep converging to. I
      don't think we need to get into what right effort is as
      Victor has posted the definition on this same thread. I
      think the disagreement is how right efforts come about. I
      think for you (please let me know if I am say this wrong),
      right efforts can be an exercise of volition and choice (as
      Dave has called it free will).

      For me, right efforts come about because of the right
      understandings. For example, when one understands (or gets
      reminded) that life is short, one is urged on to understand
      the current moment better, because otherwise, such rare
      opportunities are wasted. When one understands that nama
      and rupa roll on interrupted, at every moment, then one
      doesn't need to find a special time of the day to be
      mindful. When one understands that kusala states are light
      and malleable, when we are burdened by thoughts that we are
      not doing something enough (to have sati), to know the
      characteristic of that thinking (probably aversion), and the
      characteristic of the desire for results that bring about
      that aversion.

      When I think back of how I come to learn about (and have
      confidence in) the Buddha dhamma, I can see that I become
      more involved more progressively because of better
      understandings of the teachings (often prompted by very good
      friends). The more I learn, the more I strive to develop
      kusala states. Right efforts brought about by right
      understandings. If we just strive, without the right
      understandings, it is the wrong effort. This is the cause
      and effect that I am convinced of.

      kom
    • nina van gorkom
      Dear Howard, ... N: I agree with Kom that this is very well expressed. It helps to think of conditions, that you cannot force anything. I spoke with Lodewijk
      Message 69 of 69 , Jul 3, 2003
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        Dear Howard,
        op 03-07-2003 15:40 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...:

        > Realizing that what is usually taken for some "me"
        > going through a process of observing an apparently short and simple sequence
        > of
        > "things in here" or "things out there" actually amounts to a complex flow of
        > flickerings from one sense door to another, involving a dazzling stream of
        > arisings and ceasings of observed conditions, all quite impersonal and
        > uncontrollable (by any "me"), is wonderfully illuminating and freeing.
        N: I agree with Kom that this is very well expressed. It helps to think of
        conditions, that you cannot force anything. I spoke with Lodewijk who was
        nervous about the piano teacher, he is so sarcastical at times. No good to
        be nervous about it. A safe feeling that whatever we experienced is
        conditioned anyway.
        Nina.
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