Re: [dsg] mind, mind objects, intellect and ideas - confused?
- Hi Larry,
--- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah,
> I was primarily fishing for an acknowledgment that concepts are
> realities. This is close enough for now: "As you say, wrong conceptual
> view is also a reality,...".
Sorry for the delay - others may have clarified.
Wrong (conceptual) view is a reality, but the concepts it takes as object
are not realities. Sorry not to oblige this time;-)
Why would you like concepts to be realities?
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- Hi, Rob -
In a message dated 7/8/03 3:38:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >>Hi Howard.============================
> >>In the coming together you described above, I would see all the
> >>elements that co-occur as part of the act of consciousness,
> >>than reducing it all to contact. That is fine.
> > Well, I'm tending to think that the the correct analysis
> may be as
> >follows: The "act of consciousness" is a citta, and it is concept-
> only, the
> >concept, itself, being a mental construct or thought of a complex
> consisting of
> >vi~n~nana, arammana, and numerous cetasika. The sense-door
> activation, sense
> >consciousness, and sense object do all co-arise, interdependently,
> and the *event*
> >of their co-arising is the cetasika, phassa.
> Yikes, Howard. I may be getting a little confused, if I wasn't
> already. I thought that the original object of our discussion was a
> moment of perception of an object, and thus the act of consciousness
> would be one of perception, rather than a perceptual moment. Of
> course, I may not understand correctly what is meant by "contact";
> but I am seeing it as consciousness touching the object through the
> opening of the sense-door, thus "grasping" the object. Is there any
> conceptualization in that moment of immediate perception? If there
> is, it is not a rupa, and would seem to take the definition of a
> rupa out of the picture altogether. Am I confused in thinking
I think that the conversation is probably getting overly complex (and
perhaps of little benefit ;-), and also that we may be talking apples and
oranges. But to pursue it a drop more, perhaps to clarify a little: On the
occasion that discerning of an object occurs, there arise the knowing (vi~n~nana),
the known (arammana - could be nama or rupa), and other mental functions
pertaining to the arammana (cetasikas); no one of these ever arises without the
others arising - they are interdependent and co-occuring, but different, phenomena.
One of the cetasikas, contact (phassa), is the interdependent, joint
occurrence of sense-door activation, sense consciousness, and sense object. It is not
the collection consisting of the three, but the *event* of their joint
activation. As the Buddha said in the suttas, *the coming together* [my emphasis] of
the three is contact. [An aside: That contact is classified by Abhidhamma
always as nama, even though two of the three dhammas that come together may be
rupas!] The *collection* of those three, however, is not a directly experienced
phenomenon/actuality/paramattha dhamma; it is concept-only (though
well-grounded concept). The paramattha dhammas that are known, in this context, are the
knowing (vi~n~nana), the known (arammana), the associated functions (cetasika),
and their coming together (phassa).
Now, what we call an "act of consciousness" or a "mindstate" could be
any several different things. Among these are certain *collections* of things
that are only pa~n~natti. One candidate is the collection consisting of 1)
knowing of an object, 2) the object known, and 3) the concomitant functions.
Another is the collection consisting of 1) sense-door activation, 2) knowing of an
object through that sense-door, and 3) the object known (i.e., the
*collection* of the three things whose co-arising - an event, not a collection - is the
cetasika of contact).
I hope this clarifies what I'm saying. If not, well, so what? We don't
need to be particularly certain about any of this business. ;-)
/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)
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