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Re: [dsg] Re: Mana and other akusala

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  • Sarah
    Hi Ken H (& Sukin, Smallchap & Yasa), ... ..... Was this on restraint in eating? I think we can only say ‘it depends’ and only panna can know the citta at
    Message 1 of 43 , May 2, 2003
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      Hi Ken H (& Sukin, Smallchap & Yasa),

      --- kenhowardau <kenhowardau@...> wrote:

      > Thanks. As you, [and also Sarah and Nina], have been
      > saying lately, we should find out what the Abhidhamma has
      > to say. Otherwise, we might be headed down a blind alley.
      > Sarah has already joined in on this thread, so I look
      > forward to her further comment/exposition.
      .....
      Was this on restraint in eating? I think we can only say ‘it depends’ and
      only panna can know the citta at any given moment. I’m thinking of the
      posts on ‘Sacca parmami’ and really being truthful to know what the
      reality is and the meaning of caga (relinquishment), including
      relinquishment of attachment to sense pleasures including visible objects
      and sounds at this moment. Most the day I find is spent in one way or
      other pursuing and gratifying the different senses without any detachment.
      This is the reason why, like you, I think it’s highly questionable whether
      the attainment of jhanas is possible for anyone today, unlike in the
      Buddha’s time when already there were high degrees of such ‘guarding’ of
      the sense doors, detachment and truth.

      Btw, I thought Smallchap gave a couple of useful quotes with examples of
      kusala (wholesome) reflections involving ‘oneself’. Again, I think it just
      depends on the citta. We may reflect on the shortness of our lives or how
      as we don’t wish to die, nor do others and it may all be with wrong view,
      lobha or dosa. In the case of the weaver’s daughter in the Dhp Comy, after
      reflecting on death and so on, she became a sotapanna, so there must have
      been direct comprehension of realities as not self.
      .....
      > ---------------
      > When you've solved the question of mana, I'll seek your
      > impressions on macchariya (stinginess). At a recent
      > meeting, Andrew told us that macchariya included
      > 'stinginess with the Dhamma.' (!!!!)
      >
      > I have to wonder if my usual reluctance to contribute to
      > dsg discussions doesn't amount to macchariya. Even
      > poorly thought-out contributions are of value -- when
      > they lead to helpful, kusala, corrections. Am I
      > begrudging people this benefit on the basis, "I would
      > have thought of that if I'd taken more time!" :-)
      .....
      ;-) I’ll wait for Sukin’s comments on this and Rob’s and Jon’s on the
      other points perhaps. Sukin is certainly the right person to talk about
      generosity and to encourage us all.

      Yasa, thank you also for clearly adding the details about mana in your
      helpful post.

      Metta,

      Sarah
      ======


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    • robmoult
      Hi Ken, I will start the ball rolling on this one. I believe that that the Buddha was expalaining the second link in the chain of dependent origination in this
      Message 43 of 43 , May 26, 2003
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        Hi Ken,

        I will start the ball rolling on this one.

        I believe that that the Buddha was expalaining the second link in
        the chain of dependent origination in this Sutta. In brief, this is
        the link whereby sankhara is a condition for vinnana to arise. Let
        me first give the Abhidhamma perspective on this link and then try
        to relate it to this Sugga.

        Abhidhamma Perspective on Second Link
        =====================================
        Sankhara (kamma-formations) is cetana in 29 cittas:
        - Merit (cetana in 8 kamavacara kusala and 5 rupavacara kusala)
        - Demerit (cetana in 12 akusala)
        - Imperturbable (cetana in 4 arupavacara)

        The two modes of conditioning of this link are asynchronous kamma
        and natural decisive support.

        Vinnana (consciousness) arises at two times (kala)
        - At rebith (patisandhi-kala)
        - During life (pavatti-kala)

        One can read more about this in Visuddhi Magga XVII, 177-179.


        Relating this to the Sutta
        ==========================
        I see intend = cetana and arrange / obsess as being different
        degrees of papanca (conceptual proliferation). I see "stationing of
        consciousness" as referring to rebirth linking. Patisandhi-citta is
        a base of support for the various vipaka citta that arise during
        life (pavatti-kala). The "landing and growing" refers to the new
        kamma and new papanca in the subsequent existence that arises and
        binds to samsara. This is my undestanding of the first paragraph.

        I see the second paragraph referring to the rupavacara and
        arupavacara planes of existence; in these planes of existence, there
        is no new object, but there continues to be obsession with the
        object of the jhanic state and therefore rebirth continues.

        I see the third paragraph as referring to the Arahant.

        My analysis could probably use some fine tuning, but does this make
        sense?

        Metta,
        Rob M :-)

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > At the
        Cooran meeting, Andrew handed out copies of the
        > Cetana Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya XII.38 (translated by B.
        > Thanisssaro)) and asked for comments. Even the bookworms
        > (Christine and Steve), couldn't come up with much on the
        > key terms, "intend," "arrange," and "obsess." Steve
        > pointed out that the third paragraph described the
        > Arahant (and, presumably, the second; the Noble Learner
        > and the first; the Worldling(?)). But apart from that,
        > we were struggling for ideas.
        >
        > The translation consists of just three paragraphs so
        > hopefully, it can be explained quite briefly. If any dsg
        > members are prepared to do so, I'll put their suggestions
        > to the next Cooran meeting. Thanks in advance.
        >
        > Ken H
        > ------------
        > CETANA SUTTA
        >
        > INTENTION
        >
        > "Staying at Savatthi . . [the Blessed One said,] "What
        > one intends, what one arranges, and what one obsesses
        > about;[1] this is a support for the stationing of
        > consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing
        > [or; an establishing] of consciousness. When that
        > consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of
        > renewed becoming in the future. When there is the
        > production of renewed becoming in the future, there is
        > future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain,
        > distress and despair. Such is the origination of the
        > entire mass of suffering and stress.
        >
        > "If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still
        > obsesses [about something], this is a support for the
        > stationing of consciousness. There being a support,
        > there is . . [as above]. . . and despair. Such [too] is
        > the origination of this entire mass of suffering and
        > stress.
        >
        > "But when one doesn't intend, arrange or obsess [about
        > anything], there is no support for the stationing of
        > consciousness. There being no support, there is no
        > landing of consciousness. When that consciousness
        > doesn't land and grow, there is no production of renewed
        > becoming in the future. When there is no production of
        > renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth,
        > aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress or
        > despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of
        > suffering and stress.""
        >
        > Note [1]
        > The seven obsessions are; the obsession of sensual
        > passion, the obsession of resistance, the obsession of
        > views, the obsession of uncertainty, the obsession of
        > conceit, the obsession of passion for becoming and the
        > obsession of ignorance. See AN VII.12.
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