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Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 3

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  • Jaran Jainhuknan
    K Ratchada (Q): Regarding the understanding of the distinction (demarkation) of nama and rupa [during nama-rupapariccheda~na~na], at the time of sati being
    Message 1 of 3 , Apr 29, 2003
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      K Ratchada (Q): Regarding the understanding of the
      distinction (demarkation) of nama and rupa
      [during nama-rupapariccheda~na~na], at the time of sati
      being aware of, say, nama, is this already considered
      distinction (the first vippassana~na~na)? Is pa~n~na able
      tell the attributes of nama from that of rupa that is the
      object of the vippassana ~na~na?

      A Sujin: It's not the the matters of knowing the name that can address this questions. A skillful person is steadfast of being honest to know whether or not at this moment of, say, seeing, he is able to experience realities as they truely are.

      At the moment of seeing, there are both seeing and what is
      being seen. And both now quickly have fallen away.
      Similarly, at the moment of hearing, there is hearing and
      what is being heard. If we are to experience the realities,
      we will experience the characteristics of hearing that it is
      the element that ``knows'' an object and what is heard as
      the element that is being experienced. All of these happen
      in daily, ordinary life.

      However, for beginners, the arising of sati may be very far
      apart. For example, sati may [have more tendency to] arise at certain moments of hearing but not seeing. One important thing to note is that between the moments of satipatthana, there is thinking. Although thinking always
      arises after seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and
      touching, we hardly know the quality of thinking.

      If vipassana ~na~na is to arise now to penetrate the
      characteristics of dhamma, it will understand the quality of
      dhamma, as usual, only more profoundly with finer detail.
      Vipassana ~na~na understands the characteristics of thinking
      that it is different from seeing, hearing etc.

      What it means by demarkation (distinction) of nama and rupa
      is that no matter what the dhamma is, it is always an
      element. Nama element always appear as mentality and never
      as materiality, penetrates the nama dhamma in the nama-rupa
      pariccheda ~na~na it cannot (does not) avoid experiencing
      the object at that moment without discrimination. At that
      moment, through the mind-door pa~n~na understands clearly
      the nature of mentality and materiality.

      Even for thinking (contemplating), vipassana~na~na can arise
      to be aware of it and panna can study its characteristics.
      At the moment of thinking, it is a natural phenomenon;
      thinking is an element, not self, knowing an object. When
      vipassana~na~na falls away, that person knows that thinking
      cannot be controlled because the understanding prior to the
      arising of nama-rupaparicchada~na~na and after it are
      different. Furthermore, pa~n~na at the level of vipassana
      ~na~na cannot choose to experience an element, but it arise
      due to conditions.

      19:15min



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • nina van gorkom
      Dear Jaran, very useful. It reminds me of our discussions about thinking in Kraeng Kacan. See below. op 29-04-2003 12:06 schreef Jaran Jainhuknan op
      Message 2 of 3 , Apr 29, 2003
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        Dear Jaran,
        very useful. It reminds me of our discussions about thinking in Kraeng
        Kacan. See below.
        op 29-04-2003 12:06 schreef Jaran Jainhuknan op jjn@...:

        One important thing to note is that between the
        > moments of satipatthana, there is thinking. Although thinking always
        > arises after seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and
        > touching, we hardly know the quality of thinking.
        >
        > If vipassana ~na~na is to arise now to penetrate the
        > characteristics of dhamma, it will understand the quality of
        > dhamma, as usual, only more profoundly with finer detail.
        > Vipassana ~na~na understands the characteristics of thinking
        > that it is different from seeing, hearing etc.
        >
        (snip)
        >
        > Even for thinking (contemplating), vipassana~na~na can arise
        > to be aware of it and panna can study its characteristics.
        > At the moment of thinking, it is a natural phenomenon;
        > thinking is an element, not self, knowing an object. When
        > vipassana~na~na falls away, that person knows that thinking
        > cannot be controlled because the understanding prior to the
        > arising of nama-rupaparicchada~na~na and after it are
        > different. Furthermore, pa~n~na at the level of vipassana
        > ~na~na cannot choose to experience an element, but it arise
        > due to conditions.
        N: We discussed a great deal about control and no control, but through panna
        which directly experiences nama and rupa this will be clear. And this is
        very clear: < the understanding prior to the arising of
        nama-rupaparicchada~na~na and after it are different.> There is no more
        doubt about <beyond control.> or in which way to see it. No control whether
        thinking arises or not. And panna cannot choose what the object will be at a
        given moment, thinking or any other reality, it maybe akusala dhamma. This
        can also be object of insight.
        With appreciation,
        Nina.
      • Sarah
        Hi Jaran, Like Nina, I appreciate the good reminders and your effort to translate so that we can have a taste of some of the discussions. It even sounds like
        Message 3 of 3 , May 4, 2003
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          Hi Jaran,

          Like Nina, I appreciate the good reminders and your effort to translate so
          that we can have a taste of some of the discussions. It even sounds like
          her voice;-)

          Always back to this moment of experiencing reality in daily life. Today I
          felt very tired and had a big sleep this afternoon. Even as I drifted in
          and out of sleep there were different realities to be known - hearing,
          sound, body experiencing, rupas or physical sensations, attachment, sloth
          and torpor, thinking and so on. Still only the present moment and present
          realities that can be known - no need to think another time or place would
          be more suitable for sati (awareness).

          Look forward to more extracts and any comments from you on other threads
          too;-)

          Metta,

          Sarah
          p.s Hope you were still able to go on your trip to Thailand and visit
          family etc in spite of SARS alerts.
          ==================================


          --- Jaran Jainhuknan <jjn@...> wrote:
          >
          > A Sujin: It's not the the matters of knowing the name that can address
          > this questions. A skillful person is steadfast of being honest to know
          > whether or not at this moment of, say, seeing, he is able to experience
          > realities as they truely are.
          >
          > At the moment of seeing, there are both seeing and what is
          > being seen. And both now quickly have fallen away.
          > Similarly, at the moment of hearing, there is hearing and
          > what is being heard. If we are to experience the realities,
          > we will experience the characteristics of hearing that it is
          > the element that ``knows'' an object and what is heard as
          > the element that is being experienced. All of these happen
          > in daily, ordinary life.


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