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Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as desirable/undesirable object

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  • LBIDD@webtv.net
    Hi Nina and Jon, Thanks for your input. I agree (I looked it up) but don t understand. As I understand it, the color characteristics of Rob s computer are
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 1, 2003
      Hi Nina and Jon,

      Thanks for your input. I agree (I looked it up) but don't understand. As
      I understand it, the color characteristics of Rob's computer are kamma
      result and have an "intrinsic" (consensus) desirability. But the
      information retrieving capabilities of the computer are not kamma
      result. Information, even dhamma info, has no such "intrinsic"
      desirability or value. Does that mean that the value we place on dhamma
      info, for example, only arises in mind-door javana?

      What about wealth as kamma result? Is that measured only by the 5 senses
      in the moment, not by money in the bank?

      What about meeting a teacher who really makes a difference in your life?
      Is the kamma result aspect of that only the teacher's appearance and
      sound of her voice?

      Larry
    • LBIDD@webtv.net
      Hi again N & J, One more. When someone asks a question, isn t the answer kamma result? Larry
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 1, 2003
        Hi again N & J,

        One more. When someone asks a question, isn't the answer kamma
        result?

        Larry
      • nina van gorkom
        Hi Larry, ... When you hear an answer, there is hearing which is vipakacitta and there are other moments, among them thinking, and this is either kusala citta
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 2, 2003
          Hi Larry,
          op 02-04-2003 08:15 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...:

          > Hi again N & J,
          >
          > One more. When someone asks a question, isn't the answer kamma
          > result?
          When you hear an answer, there is hearing which is vipakacitta and there are
          other moments, among them thinking, and this is either kusala citta or
          akusala citta.
          Nina
        • nina van gorkom
          Hi Larry ... N: It is kusala vipaka to hear the Dhamma. There are different moments, hearing, vipakacitta, and on account of hearing, considering the Dhamma
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 2, 2003
            Hi Larry
            op 02-04-2003 08:04 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...:

            > What about meeting a teacher who really makes a difference in your life?
            > Is the kamma result aspect of that only the teacher's appearance and
            > sound of her voice?
            N: It is kusala vipaka to hear the Dhamma. There are different moments,
            hearing, vipakacitta, and on account of hearing, considering the Dhamma and
            this is kusala citta.
            Nina.
          • LBIDD@webtv.net
            Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. It certainly conforms to the texts but, to me, remains unsatisfying insofar as the result of kamma is consciousness of rupa
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 2, 2003
              Hi Nina,

              Thanks for your reply. It certainly conforms to the texts but, to me,
              remains unsatisfying insofar as the result of kamma is consciousness of
              rupa only and no more. It occurred to me that a king and his servant
              have nearly the same kamma result since they experience nearly the same
              rupa. It certainly diminishes the supposed potency of kamma. However,
              someone may be able to come up with a way to make sense out of it. I'll
              have to wait and see.

              Larry
            • Jonothan Abbott
              Larry ... Yes, in the sense that 2 people hearing the same dhamma info will benefit differently according not only to their accumulations but also to how well
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 3, 2003
                Larry

                --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Nina and Jon,
                >
                > Thanks for your input. I agree (I looked it up) but don't
                > understand. As
                > I understand it, the color characteristics of Rob's computer are
                > kamma
                > result and have an "intrinsic" (consensus) desirability. But the
                > information retrieving capabilities of the computer are not kamma
                > result. Information, even dhamma info, has no such "intrinsic"
                > desirability or value. Does that mean that the value we place on
                > dhamma info, for example, only arises in mind-door javana?

                Yes, in the sense that 2 people hearing the same dhamma info will
                benefit differently according not only to their accumulations but
                also to how well they hear the info at the time.

                > What about wealth as kamma result? Is that measured only by the 5
                > senses in the moment, not by money in the bank?

                Good question. We tend to associate money in the bank with pleasant
                experiences (good vipaka), but it doesn't necessarily follow. A rich
                person may have a life full of misfortune of various kinds, or (as in
                one instance given in the teachings) be too mean to spend the money
                on his/her own comfort and well-being.

                Likewise, poverty need not mean lots of unpleasant vipaka.

                > What about meeting a teacher who really makes a difference in your
                > life?
                > Is the kamma result aspect of that only the teacher's appearance
                > and sound of her voice?

                Yes and no. The general circumstances of the life we are born into,
                and situations such as meeting a 'good friend', are also influenced
                by past deeds (kamma), but in absolute terms only the moments of
                actual sense-door experience are vipaka properly so called.

                So to take your example to an extreme, there could be a situation of
                hearing useful dhamma in circumstances that are actually akusala
                vipaka through eardoor (too loud, screechy voice, etc). The hearing
                of the useful dhamma would be conditioned by past (kusala) kamma, but
                the citta actually experiencing the sound would be akusala vipaka (as
                I understand it -- corrections welcome).

                Jon


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              • LBIDD@webtv.net
                Hi Jon and Nina, Here s something that may apply to our discussion: CMA p. 201 (guide): Supportive (upatthambaka) kamma is kamma which does not gain an
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 3, 2003
                  Hi Jon and Nina,

                  Here's something that may apply to our discussion:

                  CMA p. 201 (guide): Supportive (upatthambaka) kamma is kamma which does
                  not gain an opportunity to produce its own result, but which, when some
                  other kamma is exercising a productive function, supports it either by
                  enabling it to produce its pleasant or painful results over an extended
                  time without obstruction or by reinforcing the continuum of aggegates
                  produced by another kamma. For example, when through the productive
                  function of wholesome kamma one is reborn as a human being, supportive
                  kamma may contribute to the extension of one's life-span and ensure that
                  one is healthy and well provided with the necessities of life. <end
                  quote>

                  L: So productive kamma would account for major (conceptual) differences
                  between being reborn as a king or the king's servant, or meeting a
                  kalyanamita, and supportive kamma, in providing necessities of life,
                  would account for Rob's no doubt intrinsically desirable computer.

                  Larry
                • nina van gorkom
                  Hi Larry, ... N: I understand what you mean. There is more to it.There are many different rupas experienced through the five senses. Like being in a Dhamma
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 3, 2003
                    Hi Larry,
                    op 03-04-2003 08:15 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...:

                    > Thanks for your reply. It certainly conforms to the texts but, to me,
                    > remains unsatisfying insofar as the result of kamma is consciousness of
                    > rupa only and no more.
                    N: I understand what you mean. There is more to it.There are many different
                    rupas experienced through the five senses. Like being in a Dhamma country,
                    such as Thailand. How did I come there and meet the good friend in Dhamma?
                    Former kamma according to the texts. When we analyse what is actually
                    happening: colour, sound, etc, experienced through the sensedoors. As Jon
                    said:
                    <Only
                    > separate and individual presently-arising sense-door objects (such as
                    > hardness, visible object) can ever be verified by direct experience.
                    > This means that, in terms of direct experience, the 'existence' of
                    > entities such as people and things must necessarily be a matter of
                    > inference.>
                    In conventional language we say, it is my kamma, referring to the whole of
                    events, impressions, situation. It is not wrong, but when we are more
                    precise there are ,separate and individual presently-arising sense-door
                    objects.>
                    L: It occurred to me that a king and his servant
                    have nearly the same kamma result since they experience nearly the same
                    > rupa. It certainly diminishes the supposed potency of kamma.
                    N:We cannot tell, we cannot pinpoint. Nobody experiences the same rupa. It
                    may only seem that way. How can we know what each individual experiences at
                    this or that moment?

                    Nina.
                  • m. nease
                    Dear Nina (and Larry), ... From: nina van gorkom ... different ... This is very interesting. It seems to me a very clear example of the crux
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 3, 2003
                      Dear Nina (and Larry),

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: nina van gorkom <nilo@...>

                      > Hi Larry,
                      > op 03-04-2003 08:15 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...:
                      >
                      > > Thanks for your reply. It certainly conforms to the texts but, to me,
                      > > remains unsatisfying insofar as the result of kamma is consciousness of
                      > > rupa only and no more.
                      > N: I understand what you mean. There is more to it.There are many
                      different
                      > rupas experienced through the five senses. Like being in a Dhamma country,
                      > such as Thailand. How did I come there and meet the good friend in Dhamma?
                      > Former kamma according to the texts> When we analyse what is actually
                      > happening: colour, sound, etc, experienced through the sensedoors.

                      This is very interesting. It seems to me a very clear example of the crux
                      we often discuss between the language (method?--Ven. Bodhi's word) of the
                      suttas vs. that of the abhidhamma.

                      > As Jon
                      > said:
                      > <Only
                      > > separate and individual presently-arising sense-door objects (such as
                      > > hardness, visible object) can ever be verified by direct experience.
                      > > This means that, in terms of direct experience, the 'existence' of
                      > > entities such as people and things must necessarily be a matter of
                      > > inference.>
                      > In conventional language we say, it is my kamma, referring to the whole of
                      > events, impressions, situation. It is not wrong, but when we are more
                      > precise there are separate and individual presently-arising sense-door
                      > objects.>

                      Is there an explicit reference in the Dhamma/Vinaya to the difference
                      between (or especially the equal validity of) 'conventional' and 'precise'
                      language? To me 'the whole of events, impressions, situation' must always
                      refer only to papa~nca--'stories'?

                      As you said above, "How did I come there and meet the good friend in Dhamma?
                      Former kamma according to the texts". Is there an explicit reference in the
                      Abhidhamma to the difference between (or especially the equal validity of)
                      'conventional' and 'precise' language?

                      I think Robert K. and probably others have maybe supplied these in the past
                      but I can't put my finger on them. I think it would be useful to clarify
                      this apparent gap between Dhamma and Abhidhamma.

                      Hope I haven't put my foot in my mouth yet again...

                      mike
                    • upasaka@aol.com
                      Hi, Rob (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/5/03 5:52:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... ============================= And what if the Abhidhamma *didn t* give
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 5, 2003
                        Hi, Rob (and Sarah) -

                        In a message dated 11/5/03 5:52:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                        rob.moult@... writes:

                        > Hi Sarah,
                        >
                        > I was wrong.
                        >
                        > The Abhidhammatthasangaha groups the 24 conditions as mind as a
                        > condition for mind, mind as a condition for mind/matter, mind as a
                        > condition for matter, matter as a condition for mind,
                        > concepts/mind/matter as a condition for mind and mind/matter as a
                        > condition for mind/matter.
                        >
                        > I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for
                        > matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would
                        > have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a
                        > condition for matter included.
                        >
                        > >
                        > >As I understand, the 24 conditions cover all the ways that
                        > realities are
                        > >conditioned.
                        >
                        > Is the list truly exhasutive? Do the 24 conditions really cover ALL
                        > of the ways that realities are conditioned?
                        >
                        > Metta,
                        > Rob M :-)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        =============================
                        And what if the Abhidhamma *didn't* give "matter" as a condition for
                        "matter"? Don't you know directly for yourself that motion, a rupa, can be a
                        condition (via friction) for heat, a rupa, and can be a condition (via
                        evaporation) for coolness, a rupa? Which would you choose: what you know for yourself
                        to be true, or what is said to be true in some book? (If you answer that some
                        people know for themselves that there is a self, I would answer that they only
                        think they know it, but do not know it. ;-)

                        With metta, and annoying questions! ;-)),
                        Howard

                        /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                        in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                        phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • LBIDD@webtv.net
                        Rob: I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would have noticed that
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 5, 2003
                          Rob: "I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for
                          matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would have
                          noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a condition for
                          matter included."

                          Hi Rob,

                          Is the air element considered to be a condition for the arising of rupa
                          in "movement"?

                          Vism. XI 93, note 37: "Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: '
                          "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the
                          conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause
                          for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling
                          (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent
                          locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362)."

                          Larry
                        • robmoult
                          Hi Howard (and Sarah); ... a ... a ... would ... ALL ... condition for ... rupa, can be a ... (via ... you know for yourself ... answer that some ... that they
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 5, 2003
                            Hi Howard (and Sarah);

                            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote:
                            > Hi, Rob (and Sarah) -
                            >
                            > In a message dated 11/5/03 5:52:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                            > rob.moult@j... writes:
                            >
                            > > Hi Sarah,
                            > >
                            > > I was wrong.
                            > >
                            > > The Abhidhammatthasangaha groups the 24 conditions as mind as a
                            > > condition for mind, mind as a condition for mind/matter, mind as
                            a
                            > > condition for matter, matter as a condition for mind,
                            > > concepts/mind/matter as a condition for mind and mind/matter as
                            a
                            > > condition for mind/matter.
                            > >
                            > > I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for
                            > > matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I
                            would
                            > > have noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a
                            > > condition for matter included.
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > >As I understand, the 24 conditions cover all the ways that
                            > > realities are
                            > > >conditioned.
                            > >
                            > > Is the list truly exhasutive? Do the 24 conditions really cover
                            ALL
                            > > of the ways that realities are conditioned?
                            > >
                            > > Metta,
                            > > Rob M :-)
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > =============================
                            > And what if the Abhidhamma *didn't* give "matter" as a
                            condition for
                            > "matter"? Don't you know directly for yourself that motion, a
                            rupa, can be a
                            > condition (via friction) for heat, a rupa, and can be a condition
                            (via
                            > evaporation) for coolness, a rupa? Which would you choose: what
                            you know for yourself
                            > to be true, or what is said to be true in some book? (If you
                            answer that some
                            > people know for themselves that there is a self, I would answer
                            that they only
                            > think they know it, but do not know it. ;-)
                            >

                            This is the crux of my question. I believe that there are many
                            conditions that are not covered by the Patthana. Gravity, friction,
                            electricity, magnetism, nuclear to name a few. I believe that these
                            are not included in the Abhidhamma because they are "not conducive
                            to the holy life, nor do they lead to unbinding (Nibbana)." In other
                            words, they are outside the Buddha's stated scope of interest.

                            These "unlisted conditions" focus on matter as a condition for
                            matter and form the basis for science (physics, chemistry, biology,
                            etc.). These "unlisted conditions" do impact what happens to us (not
                            just vipaka and accumulations). For this reason, trying to analyze
                            in detail the reasons behind what happens to us is futile. What is
                            important is that we recognize that everything arises because of
                            natural conditions; no unseen hand of God or "working of self"
                            behind what happens to us.

                            I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that the list
                            of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a
                            supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue.

                            Metta,
                            Rob M :-)
                          • robmoult
                            Hi Larry, ... rupa ... element: ... cause ... and Propelling ... adjacent ... It is my understanding that the air element is another name for motion or
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 5, 2003
                              Hi Larry,

                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote:
                              > Is the air element considered to be a condition for the arising of
                              rupa
                              > in "movement"?
                              >
                              > Vism. XI 93, note 37: "Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air
                              element: '
                              > "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the
                              > conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as
                              cause
                              > for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)',
                              and 'Propelling
                              > (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at
                              adjacent
                              > locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362)."

                              It is my understanding that the air element is another name for
                              motion or pressure; air element / motion / pressure are the same
                              rupa.

                              Sorry for the short reply, gotta return to a boring meeting.

                              Metta,
                              Rob M :-)
                            • buddhatrue
                              ... the list ... Hi Rob M. What kind of issue will you have? Will you abandon belief in the Abhidhamma? Sarah has posted to me previously that the
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 6, 2003
                                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...>
                                wrote:
                                ><snip> I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that
                                the list
                                > of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a
                                > supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue.
                                <snip>

                                Hi Rob M.

                                What kind of issue will you have? Will you abandon belief in the
                                Abhidhamma? Sarah has posted to me previously that the Patthana is
                                exhaustive: it describes the conditions for everything in the
                                universe. Information about this book on the Internet also points to
                                this idea:

                                "Pa¥¥hæna forming the last book of the Abhidhamma brings together all
                                such relationship in a co-ordinated form to show that the dhammas do
                                not exist as isolated entities but they constitute a well ordered
                                system in which the smallest unit conditions the rest of it and is
                                also being conditioned in return. The arrangement of the system is so
                                very intricate, complex, highly thorough and complete that it earns
                                for this treatise the reputation of being deep, profound and
                                unfathomable."
                                http://www.buddhanet.net/patthana.htm

                                Metta, James
                              • robmoult
                                Hi James, ... ... is ... to ... all ... do ... so ... earns ... Excellent question! :-) :-) If Sarah can provide me with a specific quote from
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 6, 2003
                                  Hi James,

                                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue"
                                  <buddhatrue@y...> wrote:
                                  > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult"
                                  <rob.moult@j...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > ><snip> I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that
                                  > the list
                                  > > of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a
                                  > > supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue.
                                  > What kind of issue will you have? Will you abandon belief in the
                                  > Abhidhamma? Sarah has posted to me previously that the Patthana
                                  is
                                  > exhaustive: it describes the conditions for everything in the
                                  > universe. Information about this book on the Internet also points
                                  to
                                  > this idea:
                                  >
                                  > "Pa¥¥hæna forming the last book of the Abhidhamma brings together
                                  all
                                  > such relationship in a co-ordinated form to show that the dhammas
                                  do
                                  > not exist as isolated entities but they constitute a well ordered
                                  > system in which the smallest unit conditions the rest of it and is
                                  > also being conditioned in return. The arrangement of the system is
                                  so
                                  > very intricate, complex, highly thorough and complete that it
                                  earns
                                  > for this treatise the reputation of being deep, profound and
                                  > unfathomable."
                                  > http://www.buddhanet.net/patthana.htm

                                  Excellent question! :-) :-)

                                  If Sarah can provide me with a specific quote from the texts, then I
                                  will have to examine it carefully (perhaps even go to the original
                                  Pali version, gasp!). If the quote is clear and inescapable, then I
                                  will try to figure out how the 24 conditions could be interpreted as
                                  including all the other stuff. If that fails, I will put it aside
                                  as "one of those things I need to put on the back burner for a while
                                  and approach it with a fresh perspective later". In fact, I
                                  put "intrinsic qualities of matter" on the back burner for a while
                                  and I also put "free will or not" on the back burner for a while as
                                  well. I figured that when conditions were right, I could revisit the
                                  subject and it would make better sense then. This approach worked
                                  out well for the other conundrums; it might work for this one as
                                  well.

                                  Metta,
                                  Rob M :-)
                                • shakti
                                  Hi Larry, The characteristic of air is support, it s function is motion or movement and the manifestation is that of conveying. Therefore it would seem that
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 6, 2003
                                    Hi Larry,

                                    The characteristic of air is support, it's function is motion or movement and the manifestation is that of conveying. Therefore it would seem that it is 'air' that moves / propels the body in movement. No I or self that moves.

                                    With metta, Shakti

                                    Hi Rob,

                                    Is the air element considered to be a condition for the arising of rupa
                                    in "movement"?

                                    Vism. XI 93, note 37: "Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: '
                                    "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the
                                    conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause
                                    for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling
                                    (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent
                                    locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362)."
                                    Larry

                                    Hi Larry,

                                    LBIDD@... wrote:
                                    Rob: "I noted that there was no grouping for matter as a condition for
                                    matter. If I had studied the actual conditions carefully, I would have
                                    noticed that there are some cases of matter acting as a condition for
                                    matter included."









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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • upasaka@aol.com
                                    Hi, Rob - In a message dated 11/6/03 12:34:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Howard: But when rupa is conditioned by previous rupa, that previous rupa might be
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 6, 2003
                                      Hi, Rob -

                                      In a message dated 11/6/03 12:34:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                                      rob.moult@... writes:

                                      > This is the crux of my question. I believe that there are many
                                      > conditions that are not covered by the Patthana. Gravity, friction,
                                      > electricity, magnetism, nuclear to name a few. I believe that these
                                      > are not included in the Abhidhamma because they are "not conducive
                                      > to the holy life, nor do they lead to unbinding (Nibbana)." In other
                                      > words, they are outside the Buddha's stated scope of interest.
                                      >
                                      > These "unlisted conditions" focus on matter as a condition for
                                      > matter and form the basis for science (physics, chemistry, biology,
                                      > etc.). These "unlisted conditions" do impact what happens to us (not
                                      > just vipaka and accumulations). For this reason, trying to analyze
                                      > in detail the reasons behind what happens to us is futile. What is
                                      > important is that we recognize that everything arises because of
                                      > natural conditions; no unseen hand of God or "working of self"
                                      > behind what happens to us.

                                      ----------------------------------------------------
                                      Howard:
                                      But when rupa is conditioned by previous rupa, that previous rupa
                                      might be mind-conditioned rupa (and I believe ultimately *is* mind-conditioned
                                      rupa, even when not directly so, for mind is the forerunner of all dhammas). In
                                      any case, I think quite generally that "trying to analyze in detail the reasons
                                      behind what happens to us is futile. What is important is that we recognize
                                      that everything arises because of natural conditions; no unseen hand of God or
                                      'working of self' behind what happens to us," and though the fact of this
                                      natural and impersonal origin of events can certainly be bolstered by reading some
                                      details and thinking about some details, it can be most essentially
                                      ascertained by directly seeing for oneself that this is so by means of following the
                                      Buddha's directions for investigating - for directly examining what arises with
                                      a well trained and cultivated mind.
                                      -------------------------------------------------------

                                      >
                                      > I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that the list
                                      > of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a
                                      > supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue.
                                      >
                                      > Metta,
                                      > Rob M :-)
                                      >
                                      ==============================
                                      With metta,
                                      Howard

                                      /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                                      in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                                      phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Sarah
                                      Hi RobM, ... ..... I believe they are concepts, so they may fall under arammana paccaya (object) or pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support) only.
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 6, 2003
                                        Hi RobM,

                                        --- robmoult <rob.moult@...> wrote:
                                        > This is the crux of my question. I believe that there are many
                                        > conditions that are not covered by the Patthana. Gravity, friction,
                                        > electricity, magnetism, nuclear to name a few. I believe that these
                                        > are not included in the Abhidhamma because they are "not conducive
                                        > to the holy life, nor do they lead to unbinding (Nibbana)." In other
                                        > words, they are outside the Buddha's stated scope of interest.
                                        .....
                                        I believe they are concepts, so they may fall under arammana paccaya
                                        (object) or pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support) only.
                                        They are concepts representing rupas. The rupas (heat, air, solidity etc)
                                        condition other rupas and also cittas as discussed.
                                        .....
                                        > These "unlisted conditions" focus on matter as a condition for
                                        > matter and form the basis for science (physics, chemistry, biology,
                                        > etc.). These "unlisted conditions" do impact what happens to us (not
                                        > just vipaka and accumulations). For this reason, trying to analyze
                                        > in detail the reasons behind what happens to us is futile. What is
                                        > important is that we recognize that everything arises because of
                                        > natural conditions; no unseen hand of God or "working of self"
                                        > behind what happens to us.
                                        .....
                                        Of course we can’t understand all the complexities, but that’s because of
                                        our very limited understanding of realities, not because of our limited
                                        understanding of science (more concepts;-)).
                                        .....
                                        > I am particularly interested in Sarah's understanding that the list
                                        > of 24 conditions in the Patthana is exhaustive. If she finds a
                                        > supporting quote in the texts, I will have an issue.
                                        .....
                                        I don’t think I’ve ever used the word ‘exhaustive’, but I do think that
                                        the conditions or the arising of all realities are intricately detailed.

                                        The best I can do at short notice is to quote from U Narada’s Intro to the
                                        Patthana he translated:

                                        “Patthana (Conditional Relations) deals with the 22 Triplets and 100
                                        Couplets of the Dhammasangani, i.e. all the ultimate realities, both
                                        singly and in combinations, with reference to the 24 conditions to show
                                        how the causes and their effects are related.

                                        In the methods of the four Noble Truths and Dependent Origination, only
                                        the manifested causes and effects are considered. but in Patthana, the
                                        forces that bring about the relations between the causes and effects are
                                        also taken into account and its is with these forces that this subject is
                                        primarily concerned. Hence statements such as “Visible object-base is
                                        related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by object
                                        condition” are met with in the Text. This means that visible object-base,
                                        a state as the condition, is related to eye-consciousness element and its
                                        associated states, the states as the conditioned, by the force of the
                                        object condition or the conditioning force of object.”

                                        A little later it defines force (satti), using one of our favourite words
                                        ‘inherent’;-)

                                        “Force (satti). It is that which has the power to bring about or
                                        accomplish. Just as the hotness of chilli is inherent in it and cannot
                                        exist apart from it and as the sweetness of sugar is inherent in it and
                                        cannot exist apart from it, so also, the conditioning forces inherent in
                                        the states cannot exist apart from those states. For example, in root
                                        condition, the force of root condition (conditioning force) inherent in
                                        the state of greed, which is one of the six roots, cannot exist apart from
                                        that state. Here the root conditioning state is greed and the
                                        conditioning force of greed is also greed. Therefore, the force and the
                                        state which possess that force cannot be considered apart from each other.
                                        It has to be remembered, however, that a state can possess many
                                        conditioning forces...”

                                        I’m not sure if this helps, Rob, but it may be a helpful introduction to
                                        Conditions for others.

                                        Metta,

                                        Sarah

                                        p.s
                                        I’ll be very tied up for the next couple of days or so (in between
                                        teaching tomorrow, we’ll also be celebrating our anniversary, inc. going
                                        to the long-awaited Stones concert- at least it’s outdoors and round the
                                        corner. Neil Young coming through the window as I write;-)) - if you can
                                        persuade RobertK to discuss gravity, science and conditions with you, he’s
                                        more likely to appreciate your view-point having had similar discussions I
                                        think.

                                        Christine & Thomas, thank you both for your helpful additional details.
                                        ================


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                                      • LBIDD@webtv.net
                                        Hi Shakti, The way I read this footnote, there is no movement, probably because movement implies a continuing body which anatta denies. Apparently the air
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 6, 2003
                                          Hi Shakti,

                                          The way I read this footnote, there is no movement, probably because
                                          movement implies a continuing body which "anatta" denies. Apparently
                                          the air element causes "the successive arising at adjacent locations of
                                          material groups". Sort of like the individual frames of a movie arising
                                          in quick succession give the impression of movement.

                                          Larry

                                          Vism. XI 93, note 37: "Elsewhere Pm. (p.359) says of the air element: '
                                          "It blows" (par.87): it is stirred; the meaning is that the
                                          conglomeration of elements is made to move (go) by its action as cause
                                          for successive arising at adjacent locations (points)', and 'Propelling
                                          (samabbhaahana) is the act of causing the successive arising at adjacent
                                          locations of material groups (ruupa-kalaapa)' (p.362)."
                                          -------------------------

                                          Shakti: Hi Larry,
                                          The characteristic of air is support, it's function is motion or
                                          movement and the manifestation is that of conveying.   Therefore it
                                          would seem that it is 'air' that moves / propels the body in movement.
                                          No I or self that moves.
                                          With metta, Shakti
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