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Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling

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  • nidive <nidive@yahoo.com>
    Hi James, ... Doesn t that correspond to the first method described in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html There is the case where a
    Message 1 of 139 , Feb 1, 2003
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      Hi James,

      > His method was to develop concentration and then to direct that
      > concentration to the inherent transience of the aggregates;
      > which is vipassana meditation.

      Doesn't that correspond to the first method described in


      "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by
      tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the
      path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he
      follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are
      abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

      What about the other three methods as described by the Buddha?

      And by concentration, do you mean the jhanic level of concentration?

      NEO Swee Boon
    • philip
      Dear Group ... Please enjoy the rest of the post, very very rich: Phil
      Message 139 of 139 , Aug 24, 2013
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        Dear Group

        From the Useful Posts, Nina on accumulations. I quote one bit, which * should* be pretty obvious:

        >>> the truth in one
        > > lifetime is carried to the next; it doesn't go away. That is why
        > > any amount of meditation, even for five minutes a day, is beneficial
        > > because it will accumulate insight.
        > ---------------------
        > N:Yes, life after life, it does not go away. Unfortunately also as regards
        > lobha. Life after life, it does not go away.

        Please enjoy the rest of the post, very very rich:


        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@...> wrote:
        > Hi James,
        > just some remarks, see below
        > op 16-01-2003 17:15 schreef James <buddhatrue@...> op
        > buddhatrue@...:
        > Insight is not like that. It doesn't go away even when the
        > > practice stops. Whatever insight one gains, that insight sticks
        > > around until the final culmination in nibbana.
        > ---------------
        > N: Yes, a stage of insight is not forgotten. One goes on building upon it.
        > --------
        > J: The same applies to
        > > lifetime after lifetime. Whatever one learns about the truth in one
        > > lifetime is carried to the next; it doesn't go away. That is why
        > > any amount of meditation, even for five minutes a day, is beneficial
        > > because it will accumulate insight.
        > ---------------------
        > N:Yes, life after life, it does not go away. Unfortunately also as regards
        > lobha. Life after life, it does not go away.
        > ----------------------
        > J: Now, if mind states that know insight arise and fall away as the
        > > Abhidhamma states, how would this be possible? It wouldn't be
        > > possible.
        > -----------
        > N: Yes, it is possible. Seeing just a moment ago is no more, there can be
        > thinking or hearing. Only one citta at a time, because each citta
        > experiences only one object at a time. Still, you can prove that what you
        > learnt as a child did not go away. Because each citta (sorry, moment of
        > consciousness, or mental moment, or, as Suan says, mental event) that falls
        > away is succeeded by the next one, and so on and on, life after life. There
        > is no moment without citta, then you would be dead. Still, they are
        > different cittas, not one long lasting citta.
        > Since each citta is succeeded by the next one accumulated tendencies are
        > carried on from one life to the next. Therefore insight can be accumulated.
        > I quote from some old posts, first about accumulations:
        > <Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of next one, this is one
        > of the many conditions for citta: anantara-paccaya, contiguity condition. If
        > our life would not be an unbroken series of cittas, we could not stay alive.
        > Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. We see only what appears through
        > the eyes, but it seems that we see and immediately know this or that person
        > is there, this or that thing, and that we also at the same time have like or
        > dislike of what we see. In reality there are countless moments of cittas
        > succeeding one another. The fact that many impressions seem to occur all at
        > the same time shows that cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another
        > extremely fast.
        > Because cittas arise in succession, without a pause in between, there can be
        > accumulation of good and bad qualities, kusala cetasikas and akusala
        > cetasikas, from moment to moment, from one life to the next one. Attachment,
        > aversion, metta, pa~n~naa, these can be accumulated so that there are
        > conditions for their arising again and again. This is another type of
        > condition: natural strong dependance-condition, pakatupanissaya-paccaya. If
        > as a child you were taught generosity, generosity is accumulated, because
        > each citta is succeeded by a next one, and thus, there are conditions for
        > the arising again of generosity. There is no person who is good or bad,
        > there are cittas accompanied by cetasikas arising because of their own
        > conditions.
        > Where is the free will or right effort, are we automatic machines? Not at
        > all. We are not helpless victims of fate, as someone thought. Understanding
        > of our life can be developed, and this is because of the Dhamma the Buddha
        > realized through his enlightenment and taught for fortyfive years.
        > Conditions for pa~n~naa can be accumulated by listening, carefully
        > considering and by mindfulness of nama and rupa. We cannot control
        > mindfulness, sati, it is anatta, and if we try to do this there is lobha, a
        > factors which hinders the arising of sati. Just listening and investigation
        > of what occurs in our life now can condition the arising of sati. We can
        > study the Dhamma but, as A. Sujin reminded us very often, we should study
        > with the right purpose: to have more understanding of this moment now, of
        > seeing now, attachment now, anger now. Otherwise our study is useless. Thus,
        > we should ask ourselves: how is this or that point of the Abhidhamma related
        > to this moment now?
        > Intention or volition, cetana, is a cetasika arising with each citta, and
        > when kusala citta arises volition is kusala, when akusala citta arises,
        > volition is akusala. Since cittas arise and fall away in succession
        > extremely rapidly, can we say to ourselves, I want to have kusala cetana at
        > this very moment? Is it not better to see cetana as a conditioned reality?
        > If we understand conditions free will does not have to be an issue anymore.
        > It is the same with effort. There is right effort, but it is a cetasika, not
        > us. It arises because of conditions.
        > Kamma is another type of condition. Kusala kamma and akusala kamma are also
        > accumulated and can produce results later on by way of rebirth, or by way of
        > vipakacittas that experience pleasant or unpleasant objects through the
        > senses. Kamma-condition is a type of condition different from natural strong
        > dependence-condition that causes us to be attached now or to be angry now.
        > The Visuddhimagga explains (XVII, 167):< And with a stream of continuity
        > there is neither identity nor otherness. For if there were absolute identity
        > in a stream of continuity, there would be no forming of curd from milk. And
        > yet if there were absolute otherness, the curd would not be derived from
        > milk.> When one realizes the falling away of realities, one knows that they
        > do not last, that there is nothing eternal or permanent. By seeing
        > conditions one keeps the Middle Way: no annihilation belief, no eternalism.
        > As I said, the theory is not too difficult, but the direct realization of
        > the truth is difficult for all of us, it takes a long time. Here comes in
        > the patience, the highest ascetism.>
        > Life passes just in a flash. I quote from Visuddhimagga, XX, 72, which
        > contains actually quotes from the Maha-Niddesa, Sutta on Old Age:
        > Life, person, pleasure, pain-just these alone
        > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by.
        > Gods, though they life for four-and eighty thousand
        > Aeons, are not the same for two such moments.
        > Ceased khandhas of those dead or alive
        > Are all alike, gone never to return;
        > And those that break up meanwhile, and in future,
        > Have traits no different from those ceased before.
        > No (world is) born if (consciousness) is not
        > Produced; when that is present, then it lives;
        > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead:
        > The highest sense this concept will allow.
        > No store of broken states, no future stock;
        > Those born balance like seeds on needle points.
        > Break-up of states is foredoomed at their birth;
        > Those present decay, unmingled with those past.
        > The visible object impinges on the eyesense and then seeing-consciousness
        > arises, and the meeting or association of them is unthinkably short, like
        > the seed balancing on a needle point. Life is so short, this is Mindfulness
        > of death. Abhidhamma and satipatthana, which is actually Abhidhamma applied,
        > lead to mindfulness of death.
        > James, your expectations, your fear and sadness of yesterday have gone,
        > today you are different, you may laugh. You wrote to Christine about your
        > experiences when you were about to become a monk. Thank you for sharing
        > these. Understandable that you also become sad when recollecting these. But
        > sadness does not last. I find it consoling that it is said, <Life, person,
        > pleasure pain--just these alone join in one
        > consciousness moment that flicks by.> A dear person we cling to has to die.
        > Life is so short, there is death and rebirth at each moment. This is
        > reality.
        > You can verify that James now is no longer James as a child, and that still,
        > in a way, there is still James. From milk comes curd. Here you are with all
        > your accumulated tendencies, good and bad. In a former life you may have
        > studied Dhamma, and that conditions your interest today.
        > ____________
        > J:The Abhidhamma is dead wrong about this issue.
        > ------------
        > N.
        > I want to quote part of a post by my friend Suan. He gives a good
        > explanation of Abhidhamma:
        > <The following is my personal insights into the differentiation
        > between Suttas and Abhidhamma.
        > Believe it or not, the Buddha taught only abhidhamma. In plain
        > English, abhidhamma is the subject of what we can observe,
        > experience, remove, eradicate, cultivate, develop and achieve - in
        > short, the subject of what we can do with our minds or our lives.
        > And as every discourse in the Sutta Pitaka also deals with what we
        > can do with our minds or our lives, every discourse teaches segments
        > of abhidhamma.
        > Now, why then is there the differentiation between Sutta Pitaka and
        > Abhidhamma Pitaka?
        > The differentiation is not what they teach, but how they teach.>
        > End quote.
        > Nina.
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