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Re: Way 32, Comm, Breathing

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  • christine_forsyth <cforsyth@vtown.com.au>
    Dear Robert, You write: I think whatever we read is interpreted according to our views. I read this differently. The Buddha said in another place to the monks
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 31, 2002
      Dear Robert,

      You write: "I think whatever we read is interpreted according to our
      views. I
      read this differently. The Buddha said in another place to the monks
      that he had given them the roots of trees to live at; and that any
      other place should be seen as an extra –but still allowable. Thus
      for monks it is their place of dwelling.
      We can think about going to live in the forest and believe that by
      that act we will be closer to Dhamma. But what is closer than right
      now?"
      ----------------------
      CF: I agree that we interpret what we read according to our view -
      but, having happily been a formal meditator for some years, and
      having happily not been a formal meditator for this past year and a
      bit, I don't think that I have any fixed view on this other than
      the words of the Sutta and the explanation of the Commentator. He
      says "In this way this abode becomes appropriate to the meditator.
      Therefore, it is said, "This (namely, the passage beginning with the
      words, 'Gone to the forest ...') is the making clear of an abode
      appropriate to the meditator for the culture of mindfulness." And
      further along - not to pre-empt the next portion to be posted, it
      says - "Because the subject of meditation of mindfulness on in-and-
      out-breathing is not easy to accomplish without leaving the
      neighbourhood of a village, owing to sound, which is a thorn to
      absorption; and because in a place not become a township it is easy
      for the meditator to lay hold of this subject of meditation, the
      Blessed One, pointing out the abode suitable for that, spoke the
      words, "Gone to the forest," and so forth."
      ----------------------
      RK: What does it mean to be serious? Usually we make efforts to make
      things different from what they are, try to improve the situation or
      ourselves. I think it is what we have always done, the heart of
      samsara vatta. But isn't effort of the eightfold path something
      different than that? I think it is about seeing whatever is, as it
      is - however pleasant or unpleasant or neutral that may be.
      ---------------------
      CF: 'To be serious' means to me that the Dhamma becomes purposely
      integrated in the whole of one's life. That attempting to follow the
      Buddha's teachings means just that, for every minute. The right
      meaning of the Suttas is of paramount importance to developing Right
      View don't you think? Which is why we are studying the Satipatthana
      Sutta with its commentary by Soma Thera.
      I am very willing to see whatever is, as it is - whether pleasant or
      unpleasant or neutral. It is the search for truth and reality that
      brings people to Buddhism.
      To me living as a Buddhist MUST be different from the way a person
      lives who hasn't known the Dhamma, what point is there to go on in
      just the same way as before? Why did the Buddha teach Sila if we were
      not expected to change our behaviour to conform to a minimum standard?
      My understanding is that Right Effort comes after the purification of
      conduct by R. Speech, R. Action and R. Livelihood. Right Effort, I
      think, means whatever it takes to prevent new unwholesome states
      from arising and to eradicate existing unwholesome mental states,
      and to encourage not yet existing wholesome mental states and to
      maintain current wholesome mental states.
      But as I'm no longer sure what R. Livelihood is after the posts of
      the last week so I could be wrong about right effort. Many things no
      longer seem to be straight-forward, just what the Buddha's words
      say. There seems to be hidden meanings, so I guess I'm confused.

      metta,
      Christine
      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@y...>"
      <rjkjp1@y...> wrote:
      > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth
      > <cforsyth@v...>" <cforsyth@v...> wrote:
      > The portion posted is explaining "And how, o bhikkus, does a
      > bhikkhu
      > > live contemplating the body in the body?" "Here, o bhikkhus, a
      > > bhikkhu, gone to the forest, to the foot of a tree, or to an
      empty
      > > place ..."
    • rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@yahoo.com>
      ... view - ... a ... than ... He ... meditator. ... the ... and- ... easy ... Dear Christine, Thanks for pointing this out. I didn t realise that it was
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 1, 2003
        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth
        <cforsyth@v...>" <cforsyth@v...> wrote:
        > Dear Robert,
        >
        > > CF: I agree that we interpret what we read according to our
        view -
        > but, having happily been a formal meditator for some years, and
        > having happily not been a formal meditator for this past year and
        a
        > bit, I don't think that I have any fixed view on this other
        than
        > the words of the Sutta and the explanation of the Commentator.
        He
        > says "In this way this abode becomes appropriate to the
        meditator.
        > Therefore, it is said, "This (namely, the passage beginning with
        the
        > words, 'Gone to the forest ...') is the making clear of an abode
        > appropriate to the meditator for the culture of mindfulness." And
        > further along - not to pre-empt the next portion to be posted, it
        > says - "Because the subject of meditation of mindfulness on in-
        and-
        > out-breathing is not easy to accomplish without leaving the
        > neighbourhood of a village, owing to sound, which is a thorn to
        > absorption; and because in a place not become a township it is
        easy
        > for the meditator to lay hold of this subject of meditation, the
        > Blessed One, pointing out the abode suitable for that, spoke the
        > words, "Gone to the forest," and so forth."
        > ----------------------

        Dear Christine,
        Thanks for pointing this out. I didn't realise that it was
        specifically for those who are developing anapanasati. In that case
        it is certain that one must be secluded for it to succeed. This
        object is suitable only for those who have special accumulations
        according to the commentaries.
        _________


        > RK: What does it mean to be serious? Usually we make efforts to
        make
        > things different from what they are, try to improve the situation
        or
        > ourselves. I think it is what we have always done, the heart of
        > samsara vatta. But isn't effort of the eightfold path something
        > different than that? I think it is about seeing whatever is, as it
        > is - however pleasant or unpleasant or neutral that may be.
        > ---------------------
        > CF: 'To be serious' means to me that the Dhamma becomes
        purposely
        > integrated in the whole of one's life. That attempting to follow
        the
        > Buddha's teachings means just that, for every minute.
        The right
        > meaning of the Suttas is of paramount importance to developing
        Right
        > View don't you think? Which is why we are studying the
        Satipatthana
        > Sutta with its commentary by Soma Thera.
        > I am very willing to see whatever is, as it is - whether pleasant
        or
        > unpleasant or neutral. It is the search for truth and reality
        that
        > brings people to Buddhism.
        > To me living as a Buddhist MUST be different from the way a person
        > lives who hasn't known the Dhamma, what point is there to go on in
        > just the same way as before?
        ________________
        This is different from how I see it. To me the life of a person who
        is interested in Dhamma is just like anyone else. It is just seeing,
        hearing, tasting, touching, thinking with lobha(attachment) , dosa
        (aversion) and ignorance. But because of hearing Dhamma there may be
        a touch more understanding of these realities.
        ___________________


        Why did the Buddha teach Sila if we were
        > not expected to change our behaviour to conform to a minimum
        standard?
        > My understanding is that Right Effort comes after the purification
        of
        > conduct by R. Speech, R. Action and R. Livelihood. Right Effort,
        I
        > think, means whatever it takes to prevent new unwholesome states
        > from arising and to eradicate existing unwholesome mental states,
        > and to encourage not yet existing wholesome mental states and to
        > maintain current wholesome mental states.
        > _____________________

        I think there is right effort when there is the knowing of the
        characteristic of a dhamma in the present moment. This can occur to
        anyone who has considered wisely, whether they are soldier or
        butcher, living in the forest, or at home with children and wives.
        When we have an ideal that we must follow the Buddha's teaching at
        every minute this sounds sincere but first we have to be clear what
        the path is. Otherwise something out of the ordinary, some type of
        forcing may be what we are doing. We may be overlooking subtle
        clinging that has to be known.
        I think the way of Dhamma is so natural that we can't tell anyone
        else how to live and no one can know who has understanding by
        looking at their lifestyle.

        RobertK
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