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Re: Yuganaddha Sutta

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  • James
    ... KKT, Let me ask you a question: How many stands of hair do I have on my head? Think about the question and get back to me. Metta, Jame
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 3, 2002
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      --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "phamdluan2000" <phamdluan@a...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear James,

      > KKT: Allow me to pop in here
      > to give my observation.
      >
      > I think it's very difficult
      > (if not impossible) to achieve
      > Nibbana through the power of
      > the mind alone, i.e. through reasoning.
      >
      > On the beginning of the Path,
      > one needs << reasoning >> to << see >>
      > clearly the Path like one has a map.
      >
      > But the map is not enough,
      > one has to walk the Path.
      >
      > Again, while one walks the Path,
      > the walking becomes << really >> effective
      > only when one has the first << Insight >>.
      >
      > After this first insight,
      > walking the Path is no other
      > than the deepening of this insight.
      >
      > In Zen they call this first insight Satori
      > and because Satori is often sudden,
      > the process of walking the Path is called
      > << sudden enlightenment/gradual cultivation >>
      >
      > But the first Satori is crucial.
      >
      >
      > Peace,
      >
      >
      > KKT

      KKT,

      Let me ask you a question: How many stands of hair do I have on my
      head? Think about the question and get back to me.

      Metta, Jame
    • phamdluan2000
      ... Let me ask you a question: How many stands of hair do I have on my head? Think about the question and get back to me. Metta, Jame KKT: Don t know, James.
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 3, 2002
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        --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" <buddhatrue@y...> wrote:


        Let me ask you a question: How many stands of hair do I have on my
        head? Think about the question and get back to me.

        Metta, Jame





        KKT: Don't know, James.

        Just don't know.


        Peace,


        KKT
      • robmoult
        Hi Sarah, Yes! I can finally say that Free Will is out. I have replaced it with the word choice and stressed that choice is a result of conditions, not
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 3, 2002
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          Hi Sarah,

          Yes! I can finally say that "Free Will" is out. I have replaced it
          with the word "choice" and stressed that "choice" is a result of
          conditions, not an external factor such as a self.

          --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
          > Hope you're recovering and let me say how delighted we all were to
          read
          > your wonderful posts and insights over the weekend and
          particularly the
          > kind and encouraging manner in which they were written - a fine
          example
          > for us all.

          I am recovering slowly. I am in India for the next couple of days
          and I am not sure that this is going to speed my recovery. I am
          still a couple of posts behind.

          > *****
          > 2. I also raised the qu about votthapanna (determining)
          consciousness and
          > predominant cetasikas such as manasikara. As we discussed before,
          yoniso
          > manasikara (wise attention) and ayoniso manasikara (unwise
          attention) only
          > arise during the javana process, prompting kusala and akusala
          states.
          > Determining consciousness is just one citta. "Who knows what is
          > predominant and what's the use of speculating", she asked. In
          other words,
          > it's more useful to understand the reality appearing at the
          present moment
          > than to speculate on details in processes that cannot be known.

          I am polishing my Class Notes. A new class starts on Jan 5th and I
          want to print out a complete set for each student. I am de-stressing
          the idea of "predominant" cetasikas, but FYI, I just ran across this
          interesting quote in Nyanatiloka's Dictionary (under manasikara):
          "It is, therefore, the prominent factor in two specific classes of
          consciousness: i.e. 'advertence at the five sense doors' and at the
          mind-door."

          I remind myself that Narada wrote that "free will arose during the
          determining consciousness" and the problems that got me into. A
          single comment by a single author has to be taken with a grain of
          salt.

          > *****
          > 3. At one point on the first day, I was trying to `work out' a
          detail on
          > ayatanas (bases) intellectually. Very appropriately she reminded
          me that
          > this was just thinking and speculating and not understanding
          anything
          > about the present moment - the namas and rupas which can be
          experienced
          > and known now. It was such a helpful reminder for me. So easily we
          can go
          > off-track, lost in intellectual speculation which is not even wise
          > consideration - just being lost in pannatti (concepts) without any
          sati.
          > *****

          Been there, done that! Many times. Guilty as charged :-)


          Metta,
          Rob M :-)
        • Sarah
          Hi Rob M, ... ..... hmmm......not sure about the “choice” replacement.....we’ll see;-) ... .... Right....just checked. Thanks for pointing this out and
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 4, 2002
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            Hi Rob M,

            --- robmoult <rob.moult@...> wrote: > Hi Sarah,
            >
            > Yes! I can finally say that "Free Will" is out. I have replaced it
            > with the word "choice" and stressed that "choice" is a result of
            > conditions, not an external factor such as a self.
            .....
            hmmm......not sure about the “choice” replacement.....we’ll see;-)
            .....
            > I am polishing my Class Notes. A new class starts on Jan 5th and I
            > want to print out a complete set for each student. I am de-stressing
            > the idea of "predominant" cetasikas, but FYI, I just ran across this
            > interesting quote in Nyanatiloka's Dictionary (under manasikara):
            > "It is, therefore, the prominent factor in two specific classes of
            > consciousness: i.e. 'advertence at the five sense doors' and at the
            > mind-door."
            ....
            Right....just checked. Thanks for pointing this out and also Vis X1V, 152
            which emphasises its controlling function. Not sure if this is the same as
            prominent.
            ....
            > I remind myself that Narada wrote that "free will arose during the
            > determining consciousness" and the problems that got me into. A
            > single comment by a single author has to be taken with a grain of
            > salt.
            ....
            I think that is a very wise attitude, Rob, no matter how well-respected
            the author may be. In the end, however, it is the ignorance and wrong-view
            that will latch onto whatever it’s convenient to latch onto;-(
            ....
            > Been there, done that! Many times. Guilty as charged :-)
            ....
            Well, this is the way to learn about accumulations and carita at the
            present moment. I’m sure everyone (even those who don’t agree) must have
            been impressed by the sincerity and open-mindedness to listening and
            considering in your posts (also in those by Ray, Swee Boon, James and
            several others). I’ve read most and particularly appreciated your long one
            to the LURKERS on kamma, vipaka and anatta. If it doesn’t sound
            condescending in anyway, I’d like to say you’ve really got the point and
            explained it beautifully. For those who skipped through or were away,
            please read it
            carefully:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17285

            A few minor points:
            1. there seemed to be a suggestion that all “active” consciousness will
            produce results. Of course, not all kamma is kamma patha (bringing
            results). I hope I didn’t misunderstand.We discussed more on this at the
            weekend too.
            2. As you know, I think the term ‘thought processes’ for sense door and
            mind door processes is particularly misleading, but I know it is commonly
            used.
            3. I’m not sure it is useful to refer to ‘internal’ and ‘external’
            processes.

            There may be one or two more minor quibbles, but that’s all they are. It’s
            a very helpful post reflecting the growth of understanding. I particularly
            appreciated your comment in another post when you said “I now look around
            and start to see how ubiquitous and insiduous this self-view is; it
            disorts almost everything....”

            I have one or two comments to add on the vipallassa thread, but will leave
            it for now.

            Get well soon and look f/w to seeing you again in Hong Kong without any
            free-will baggage;-);-)

            Sarah
            =======

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          • kenhowardau
            Hello Sarah (and James at the end), Thanks for your reports on the Kang Krajan experience; many more to follow I hope. ... out a detail on ayatanas (bases)
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 5, 2002
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              Hello Sarah (and James at the end),


              Thanks for your reports on the Kang Krajan experience;
              many more to follow I hope.

              You wrote:
              > At one point on the first day, I was trying to `work
              out' a detail on ayatanas (bases) intellectually. Very
              appropriately [K Sujin] reminded me that this was just
              thinking and speculating and not understanding anything
              about the present moment - the namas and rupas which can
              be experienced and known now. It was such a helpful
              reminder for me. So easily we can go off-track, lost in
              intellectual speculation which is not even wise
              consideration - just being lost in pannatti (concepts)
              without any sati. >
              -------

              Yet again, you have said what I needed to hear. So much
              of what I take for `Dhamma study' is just pannatti.
              (You'll never see that drafts folder now :-) ) Even the
              most pivotal questions (e.g., is there a self or is there
              not a self), are misguided when they don't address the
              present namas and rupas.


              Another case in point is the beautiful Sakalika-sutta
              that James has posted. It shows us the Buddha's perfect
              understanding of mara -- the five khandhas -- the
              conditioned namas and rupas. But if we see it in a
              conventional way, then all that beautiful imagery of a
              wounded `Blessed One' in conversation with `the Evil
              One,' is just so much pannatti.


              Christine, Andrew, Steven and I will be meeting with some
              other Dhamma friends at Andrew's this weekend. As was
              the case last time, I'll probably drive people mad with
              continual reminders of how there is only nama and rupa.
              I'll tell them to blame you.


              Kind regards
              Ken H

              PS James, I just saw your Mara post as I was about to
              send this. I wouldn't want to appear indifferent to
              experiences that are important to you. That there was
              ultimately nothing more than fleeting, conditioned phenomena,
              is the most meaningful thing I can say about them -- or about
              anything else in the world.
              KH
            • Sarah
              Hi Ken H, ... .... ;-) likewise those from the SEQld DSG gathering this weekend;-);-) ... .... .....so much ‘self’ censorship...but hopefully the
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 5, 2002
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                Hi Ken H,

                --- kenhowardau <kenhowardau@...> wrote:

                > Thanks for your reports on the Kang Krajan experience;
                > many more to follow I hope.
                ....
                ;-) likewise those from the SEQld DSG gathering this weekend;-);-)
                .....
                > Yet again, you have said what I needed to hear. So much
                > of what I take for `Dhamma study' is just pannatti.
                > (You'll never see that drafts folder now :-) ) Even the
                > most pivotal questions (e.g., is there a self or is there
                > not a self), are misguided when they don't address the
                > present namas and rupas.
                ....
                .....so much ‘self’ censorship...but hopefully the combination of
                Chrsitine’s inspirations and your wise reflections will lead to useful
                discussions for you all and some helpful titbits for the rest of us;-)
                .....
                > Another case in point is the beautiful Sakalika-sutta
                > that James has posted. It shows us the Buddha's perfect
                > understanding of mara -- the five khandhas -- the
                > conditioned namas and rupas. But if we see it in a
                > conventional way, then all that beautiful imagery of a
                > wounded `Blessed One' in conversation with `the Evil
                > One,' is just so much pannatti.
                .....
                wisely put....
                ....
                > Christine, Andrew, Steven and I will be meeting with some
                > other Dhamma friends at Andrew's this weekend. As was
                > the case last time, I'll probably drive people mad with
                > continual reminders of how there is only nama and rupa.
                > I'll tell them to blame you.
                ....
                ;-) You have my full support - with the continual reminders (not with the
                driving people mad). We were sorry to miss Steve in Bkk and hope you can
                give him and Andrew a few prods about DSG at the same time.....

                Have a good weekend,

                Sarah
                =====


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              • robmoult <rob.moult@jci.com>
                Hi Sarah, ... attention) only ... states. I was still under the impression that yoniso manisakara / ayoniso manasikara arose during the determining stage and
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 7, 2002
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                  Hi Sarah,

                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > As we discussed before, yoniso
                  > manasikara (wise attention) and ayoniso manasikara (unwise
                  attention) only
                  > arise during the javana process, prompting kusala and akusala
                  states.

                  I was still under the impression that yoniso manisakara / ayoniso
                  manasikara arose during the determining stage and thereby
                  conditioned either kusala or akusala at the javana stage.

                  Did we discuss this before?

                  Metta,
                  Rob M :-)
                • Sarah
                  Hi Rob M, Glad you’re recovering....it’s been Jon’s turn to be down with flu this weekend;-( ... .... Would you mind looking back at the following
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 9, 2002
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                    Hi Rob M,

                    Glad you’re recovering....it’s been Jon’s turn to be down with flu this
                    weekend;-(

                    --- "robmoult <rob.moult@...>" <rob.moult@...> wrote:
                    > I was still under the impression that yoniso manisakara / ayoniso
                    > manasikara arose during the determining stage and thereby
                    > conditioned either kusala or akusala at the javana stage.
                    >
                    > Did we discuss this before?
                    ....
                    Would you mind looking back at the following message from last August:
                    http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11257.html

                    In it, I explained, as I understand, how votthapanna (determining)
                    consciousness is an ahetuka kiriya citta (rootless inoperative
                    consciousness. The cetasikas (mental factors) accompanying it, including
                    manasikara (attention) are therefore also rootless and inoperative and
                    perform their functions accordingly. For example, the ekaggata
                    (concentration) arising with this citta or with a moment of seeing or
                    hearing will neither be right or wrong concentration, it will be
                    ‘rootless’. The same applies to the sanna (perception) or cetana
                    (intention). They perform their functions of ‘directing’,
                    ‘perceiving’(sorry, Suan;-)) or ‘coordinating/willing’ the consciousness
                    and other mental factors to the object. However they don’t direct or will
                    kusala or akusala, for example, so their tasks are not quite the same when
                    they arise with these different kinds of citta.

                    Back to the determining consciousness. It is accompanied by equanimity
                    only and the manaskikara can surely not be wise or unwise which I
                    understand would only arise in the javana process with kusala and akusala
                    cittas (or kiriya cittas for the arahat). Vis XIV (183) discusses
                    cetasikas arising with functional indetrminate consciousness with and
                    without root cause. Earlier in the same chapter (152) it discusses the
                    controlling function of manasikara. It also mentions ‘controller of the
                    cognitive series’ and ‘controller of impulsions’ as terms for the 2 kinds
                    of adverting cosciousness, but makes it clear that they are ‘not included’
                    under the given sobhana manasikara.

                    Rob, the only reason I’m pursuing this discussion is because I think you
                    are giving this particular consciousness and the role of the accompanying
                    manasikara undue importance in determining the nature of the following
                    javana cittas (of course there couldn’t be the succeeding cittas without
                    this crucial one).

                    I would see the importance of wise and unwise attention as being when they
                    accompany moments of consciousness with lobha or panna or dosa as they
                    arise now and they can be experienced and known as such.

                    What do you think?

                    Sarah
                    =======


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                  • rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@yahoo.com>
                    ... Dear Rob and Sarah, A. Sujin explained a little about the votthapanna citta last Sunday . It is simply a citta that invariably arises before the javana
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 10, 2002
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                      ---
                      Dear Rob and Sarah,
                      A. Sujin explained a little about the votthapanna citta last Sunday . It is
                      simply a citta that invariably arises before the javana cittas. As Sarah
                      said it is ahetuka, rootless. What conditions it is upanissaya paccaya and
                      anatara paccaya. It is accumulations that 'decide' whether the javana
                      process will be kuala or akusala. One of the similes given in the
                      commentaries is to call the votthapana citta a fool (because it is simply
                      ahetuka); it doesn't know right from wrong. It is like a fool who will
                      insult even a King. There is no panna arising at the moment of
                      votthapana. It is possible(perhaps) to suggest the votthapana that
                      preceeds kusala javana process as 'yoniso' or the one preceeding
                      akusala as 'ayoniso' but I think not really helpful to do so as this might
                      cause someone to overestimate the importance of this citta.
                      Rrobert
                      In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...>
                      >

                      > --- "robmoult <rob.moult@j...>" <rob.moult@j...> wrote:
                      > > I was still under the impression that yoniso manisakara / ayoniso
                      > > manasikara arose during the determining stage and thereby
                      > > conditioned either kusala or akusala at the javana stage.
                      > >
                      > > Did we discuss this before?
                      > ....
                      > Would you mind looking back at the following message from last
                      August:
                      > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11257.html
                      >
                      > In it, I explained, as I understand, how votthapanna (determining)
                      > consciousness is an ahetuka kiriya citta (rootless inoperative
                      > consciousness. The cetasikas (mental factors) accompanying it,
                      including
                      > manasikara (attention) are therefore also rootless and inoperative and
                      > perform their functions accordingly. For example, the ekaggata
                      > (concentration) arising with this citta or with a moment of seeing or
                      > hearing will neither be right or wrong concentration, it will be
                      > `rootless'. The same applies to the sanna (perception) or cetana
                      > (intention). They perform their functions of `directing',
                      > `perceiving'(sorry, Suan;-)) or `coordinating/willing' the consciousness
                      > and other mental factors to the object. However they don't direct or
                      will
                      > kusala or akusala, for example, so their tasks are not quite the same
                      when
                      > they arise with these different kinds of citta.
                      >
                      > Back to the determining consciousness. It is accompanied by
                      equanimity
                      > only and the manaskikara can surely not be wise or unwise which I
                      > understand would only arise in the javana process with kusala and
                      akusala
                      > cittas (or kiriya cittas for the arahat). Vis XIV (183) discusses
                      > cetasikas arising with functional indetrminate consciousness with and
                      > without root cause. Earlier in the same chapter (152) it discusses the
                      > controlling function of manasikara. It also mentions `controller of the
                      > cognitive series' and `controller of impulsions' as terms for the 2 kinds
                      > of adverting cosciousness, but makes it clear that they are `not
                      included'
                      > under the given sobhana manasikara.
                      >
                      > Rob, the only reason I'm pursuing this discussion is because I think you
                      > are giving this particular consciousness and the role of the
                      accompanying
                      > manasikara undue importance in determining the nature of the
                      following
                      > javana cittas (of course there couldn't be the succeeding cittas without
                      > this crucial one).
                      >
                      > I would see the importance of wise and unwise attention as being
                      when they
                      > accompany moments of consciousness with lobha or panna or dosa as
                      they
                      > arise now and they can be experienced and known as such.
                      >
                      > What do you think?
                      >
                      > Sarah
                      > =======
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ____________________________________________________________
                      ___________
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                      > Get your free @... address at
                      http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                    • robmoult <rob.moult@jci.com>
                      Hi Rob K and Sarah, I sincerely appreciate you putting me straight on this issue. I need to review my materials and tone down my handling of this citta. I
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 10, 2002
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                        Hi Rob K and Sarah,

                        I sincerely appreciate you putting me straight on this issue. I need
                        to review my materials and "tone down" my handling of this citta.

                        I would be very grateful if you could both download my "Class Notes"
                        and review them for other misinterpretations. In 2002, my Class
                        Notes were distributed one section per class. In a couple of weeks,
                        I plan to print the compliled version and distribute it as a draft
                        to the entire class (I will make 100 copies).

                        Now is the criticial time that I need to have misinterpretations
                        identified before I print out the book and it takes a life of its
                        own, potentially leading to wrong views among my students.

                        Metta,
                        Rob M :-)
                      • nidive
                        Hi All, I know that this sutta had been discussed before. But I would like to confirm with DSG members, especially Nina, RobertK and Sarah (you all have the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 12, 2004
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                          Hi All,

                          I know that this sutta had been discussed before. But I would like to
                          confirm with DSG members, especially Nina, RobertK and Sarah (you all
                          have the commentaries, don't you?) on the four types of attainment of
                          arahantship.

                          (1) insight preceded by tranquility - this refers to one who had
                          developed the mundane jhanas and used those jhanas as the basis of
                          contemplation of insight

                          (2) tranquility preceded by insight - this refers to one who had not
                          developed the mundane jhanas but proceded straight into the
                          contemplation of insight; the tranquility obtained is that of
                          supramundane jhana.

                          (3) tranquility in tandem with insight - this refers to one who had
                          developed the mundane jhanas but did not use those jhanas as the basis
                          of contemplation of insight

                          (4) unclear


                          Regards
                          Swee Boon


                          http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html

                          On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's
                          monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!"

                          "Yes, friend," the monks responded.

                          Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the
                          attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of
                          one or another of four paths. Which four?

                          "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by
                          tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the
                          path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he
                          follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are
                          abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

                          "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity
                          preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight,
                          the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he
                          follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are
                          abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

                          "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in
                          tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with
                          insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues
                          it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters
                          are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

                          "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness
                          concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under
                          control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly,
                          settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is
                          born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the
                          path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his
                          obsessions destroyed.

                          "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in
                          my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four
                          paths."
                        • htootintnaing
                          Dear Swee Boon, What is the last category called unclear . Is it a kind of unclassified one? With much respect, Htoo Naing ... to ... all ... of ... basis ...
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 12, 2004
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                            Dear Swee Boon,

                            What is the last category called 'unclear'. Is it a kind of
                            unclassified one?

                            With much respect,

                            Htoo Naing
                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------

                            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" <nidive@y...> wrote:
                            > Hi All,
                            >
                            > I know that this sutta had been discussed before. But I would like
                            to
                            > confirm with DSG members, especially Nina, RobertK and Sarah (you
                            all
                            > have the commentaries, don't you?) on the four types of attainment
                            of
                            > arahantship.
                            >
                            > (1) insight preceded by tranquility - this refers to one who had
                            > developed the mundane jhanas and used those jhanas as the basis of
                            > contemplation of insight
                            >
                            > (2) tranquility preceded by insight - this refers to one who had not
                            > developed the mundane jhanas but proceded straight into the
                            > contemplation of insight; the tranquility obtained is that of
                            > supramundane jhana.
                            >
                            > (3) tranquility in tandem with insight - this refers to one who had
                            > developed the mundane jhanas but did not use those jhanas as the
                            basis
                            > of contemplation of insight
                            >
                            > (4) unclear
                            >
                            >
                            > Regards
                            > Swee Boon
                            >
                            >
                            > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html
                            >
                            > On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's
                            > monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!"
                            >
                            > "Yes, friend," the monks responded.
                            >
                            > Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the
                            > attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of
                            > one or another of four paths. Which four?
                            >
                            > "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by
                            > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the
                            > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he
                            > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are
                            > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
                            >
                            > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity
                            > preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by
                            insight,
                            > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As
                            he
                            > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are
                            > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
                            >
                            > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in
                            > tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with
                            > insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it,
                            pursues
                            > it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his
                            fetters
                            > are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
                            >
                            > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness
                            > concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under
                            > control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly,
                            > settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is
                            > born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows
                            the
                            > path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his
                            > obsessions destroyed.
                            >
                            > "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in
                            > my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four
                            > paths."
                          • Sarah
                            Hi Swee Boon (Jon, Nina, Suan, RobK), ... ... We don’t have the commentaries and just rely on brief notes given by translators or friends that help out
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 12, 2004
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                              Hi Swee Boon (Jon, Nina, Suan, RobK),

                              --- nidive <nidive@...> wrote: > Hi All,
                              >
                              > I know that this sutta had been discussed before. But I would like to
                              > confirm with DSG members, especially Nina, RobertK and Sarah (you all
                              > have the commentaries, don't you?) on the four types of attainment of
                              > arahantship.
                              <...>
                              > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html

                              We don’t have the commentaries and just rely on brief notes given by
                              translators or friends that help out like Suan or Nina who uses the Thai
                              as well as Pali more and more. Jon has written many posts on this sutta
                              and included any commentary notes given. I’m in a rush, so have just
                              fished out some of his posts rather than stop to reflect further.

                              I think the second one will be of most interest to you. Maybe you can take
                              up any further discussion with him based on his comments (and those from
                              the commentary) and Nina or Suan can help if there is anything needed more
                              comy assistance:

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30594
                              http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3905.html
                              http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3929.html
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27712
                              http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15330.html
                              http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3929.html

                              Metta,

                              Sarah
                              =======


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                            • nidive
                              Hi Htoo, It means that I m not sure what Venerable Ananda was talking about regarding the fourth type of arahant. However, I suspect that this has something to
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 13, 2004
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                                Hi Htoo,

                                It means that I'm not sure what Venerable Ananda was talking about
                                regarding the fourth type of arahant.

                                However, I suspect that this has something to do with the Pansadhovaka
                                Sutta.


                                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html

                                "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness
                                concerning the Dhamma well under control. There comes a time when his
                                mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified &
                                concentrated.


                                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html

                                "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His
                                concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained
                                serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful
                                restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly,
                                settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm
                                & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in
                                place by the fabrication of forceful restraint.


                                What is your understanding regarding this matter, Htoo?

                                Regards,
                                Swee Boon
                              • htootintnaing
                                ... Hi Htoo, It means that I m not sure what Venerable Ananda was talking about regarding the fourth type of arahant. However, I suspect that this has
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 13, 2004
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                                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" <nidive@y...> wrote:
                                  Hi Htoo,

                                  It means that I'm not sure what Venerable Ananda was talking about
                                  regarding the fourth type of arahant.

                                  However, I suspect that this has something to do with the Pansadhovaka
                                  Sutta.


                                  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html

                                  "Then there is the case where a monk's mind ...becomes unified &
                                  concentrated.

                                  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html

                                  "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His
                                  concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained
                                  serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful
                                  restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly,
                                  settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm
                                  & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in
                                  place by the fabrication of forceful restraint.

                                  What is your understanding regarding this matter, Htoo?

                                  Regards,
                                  Swee Boon
                                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  Dear Swee Boon,

                                  Thanks for your reply. To be honest, I am not as good as you at
                                  Dhamma study. I also find the last type or the 4th type a bit unclear.

                                  The 4th type does not tell whether there is preceeding tranquility.
                                  Nor does preceeding insight. Nor does in tandem.

                                  I feel that this type is not labeled which is good, in my opinion. A
                                  monk who declared that he attained arahatship in the presence of
                                  Venerable Ananda, has his restlessness concerning Dhamma well under
                                  control became calm and saw inward and attained arahatta magga nana.

                                  Even though it is not stated that whether there is preceeding
                                  tranquil or insight, both are there while he attained arahatship.

                                  Regarding Sangha Sutta or Pansadhovaka Sutta, I feel it is mentioning
                                  vitekkama, pariyutthana, and anusaya kilesa and their screening
                                  through sila, samadhi and panna. Latter parts are, I think,
                                  cittanupassana and with that bhikkhus attain higher nana.

                                  With much respect,

                                  Htoo Naing
                                • Ken O
                                  Hi Htoo and Swee Boon I got this link from RobK regarding your questions, it was written by Jon a while ago
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 13, 2004
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                                    Hi Htoo and Swee Boon

                                    I got this link from RobK regarding your questions, it was written by
                                    Jon a while ago

                                    http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3905.html

                                    Hope this help


                                    Ken O





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                                  • Jonothan Abbott
                                    Htoo and Swee Boon Regarding the issues you are discussing in this thread and the associated one on the Pansadhovaka Sutta AN III, 100, I have checked the
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 20, 2004
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                                      Htoo and Swee Boon

                                      Regarding the issues you are discussing in this thread and the
                                      associated one on the Pansadhovaka Sutta AN III, 100, I have checked
                                      the 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' translation of the
                                      Pansadhovaka Sutta ('Refinement of the Mind' -- see relevant part
                                      copied below). I have found the following that may be of interest:

                                      1. A footnote to the Pansadhovaka Sutta explains that the Pali terms
                                      for "higher mental states experienced in meditation" referred to in
                                      that sutta, and for the "agitation caused by higher states of mind"
                                      referred to in the Yuganaddha Sutta AN IV, 170, are different, namely
                                      'dhammavitakka' here vs. 'dhammuddhacca' there, but that the
                                      explanation given by the commentary is the same in both cases,
                                      namely, the ten corruptions of insight meditation ('dasa
                                      vipassanuupakkilesaa). It gives a x-ref to Vism XX, 105-28.

                                      2. Another footnote to the Pansadhovaka Sutta explains that the
                                      attainments mentioned in the sutta are the six "super-knowledges"
                                      ('abhi~n~naa'), about which it says:
                                      "Five of these are mundane; the sixth is the supramundane attainment
                                      of arahantship, here called the destruction of the
                                      taints('aasavakkhaya').
                                      "The necessary condition for the five super-knowledges is mastery
                                      over the fourth jhaana; the foundation for arahantship is the
                                      development of insight based on concentration."
                                      For the five mundane super-knowledges, a x-ref to Vism Ch. XII and
                                      XIII is given.

                                      (The other point of interest about the Pansadhovaka Sutta is the
                                      phrase "whenever the necessary conditions obtain", which qualifies
                                      the description of each of the attainments beginning "If he wishes,
                                      ...". According to the footnote, this refers to the preliminary
                                      conditions required for the attainments.)

                                      3. As regards the fourth way of attainment of enlightenment
                                      mentioned in the Yuganaddha Sutta, a footnote there explains:
                                      "'Dhammuddhacca-viggahita.m manasa.m hoti.' According to AA, the
                                      "agitation" (uddhacca) meant here is a reaction to the arising of the
                                      ten "corruptions of insight" ('vipassananuupakkilesa') when they are
                                      wrongly taken as indicating path-attainment."

                                      Jon

                                      NDB, Text 41, 'The Refinement of the Mind -- 1'
                                      ...
                                      "When he has abandoned these, there still remain thoughts about
                                      *higher mental states experienced in meditation*. That concentration
                                      is not yet peaceful and sublime; it has not attained to full
                                      tranquillity, nor has it achieved mental unification; it is
                                      maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements.

                                      But there comes a time when his mind becomes inwardly steadied,
                                      composed, unified and concentrated. That concentration is then calm
                                      and refined; it has attained to full tranquillity and achieved mental
                                      unification; it is not maintained by strenuous suppression of the
                                      defilements.

                                      Then, to whatever mental state realisable by direct knowledge he
                                      directs his mind, he achieves the capacity of realizing that state by
                                      direct knowledge, whenever the necessary conditions obtain.

                                      If he wishes ... etc"

                                      --- htootintnaing <htootintnaing@...> wrote:
                                      ...
                                      [Swee Boon:]
                                      It means that I'm not sure what Venerable Ananda was talking about
                                      regarding the fourth type of arahant.
                                      However, I suspect that this has something to do with the
                                      Pansadhovaka Sutta.

                                      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html
                                      [Yuganaddha Sutta]
                                      "Then there is the case where a monk's mind ...becomes unified &
                                      concentrated."

                                      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html
                                      [Pansadhovaka Sutta]
                                      "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma.
                                      His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet
                                      attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication
                                      of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows
                                      steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His
                                      concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and
                                      is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint."

                                      [Htoo:]
                                      I feel that this type is not labeled which is good, in my opinion. A
                                      monk who declared that he attained arahatship in the presence of
                                      Venerable Ananda, has his restlessness concerning Dhamma well under
                                      control became calm and saw inward and attained arahatta magga nana.

                                      Even though it is not stated that whether there is preceeding
                                      tranquil or insight, both are there while he attained arahatship.

                                      Regarding Sangha Sutta or Pansadhovaka Sutta, I feel it is mentioning
                                      vitekkama, pariyutthana, and anusaya kilesa and their screening
                                      through sila, samadhi and panna. Latter parts are, I think,
                                      cittanupassana and with that bhikkhus attain higher nana.


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                                      Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                                    • htootintnaing
                                      ... wrote: Htoo and Swee Boon Regarding the issues you are discussing in this thread and the associated one on the Pansadhovaka Sutta AN III,
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 23, 2004
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                                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott
                                        <jonoabb@y...> wrote:
                                        Htoo and Swee Boon

                                        Regarding the issues you are discussing in this thread and the
                                        associated one on the Pansadhovaka Sutta AN III, 100, I have checked
                                        the 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha' translation of the
                                        Pansadhovaka Sutta ('Refinement of the Mind' -- see relevant part
                                        copied below). I have found the following that may be of interest:

                                        1. A footnote to the Pansadhovaka Sutta explains that the Pali terms
                                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        Dear Jon,

                                        Thanks a lot for your kind footnotes.

                                        Htoo
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