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Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca

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  • Robert Kirkpatrick
    ... Indeed the hetu are very important. They include the dhammas that keep us in samasara -namely lobha and moha;and they include the dhammas that lead s out
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 31, 2000
      --- Kom Tukovinit <kom@...> wrote: > Dear Sarah,
      >
      > >
      > I couldn't find the commentary related to my earlier saying
      > about A.
      > Santi's teaching the importance of hetu paccaya, so I would
      > classify my
      > earlier comments as being highly suspicious.
      >
      > Dear Kom,
      Indeed the hetu are very important. They include the dhammas
      that keep us in samasara -namely lobha and moha;and they include
      the dhammas that lead s out of samasara -amoha(panna) and
      alobha.
      Robert

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    • Sarah Procter Abbott
      Dear Kom, ... I m enjoying our paccaya (conditions) studies, even if I m a bit slow... I should have twigged you were talking about upanissaya paccaya
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 2, 2000
        Dear Kom,

        >From: Kom Tukovinit <kom@...>

        >Dear Sarah,
        >
        >Here's what from NVG's Conditions (Chapter 8, page 67 [thanks to
        >Roberts]) about pakatupanissaya-paccaya.
        >
        >pakat�panissaya-paccaya. With regard to the third
        >decisive support-condition, pakat�panissaya-paccaya, the commentary
        >to the �Pa��h�na� (the Pa�cappakara�atthakath�) explains the term
        >�pakata� in pakat�panissaya. Pakata means done properly, done
        >thoroughly. Kusala and akusala which were �done thoroughly�, often
        >performed, can become firmly accumulated, they can become habitual.
        >In this way they are a cogent reason, a powerful inducement for the
        >arising of kusala and akusala later on, which are the dhammas
        >conditioned by them, the paccayupanna dhammas. Also external
        >conditions, such as temperature, food, dwelling place and friends one
        >associates with can be cogent reasons for the dhammas which they
        >cause to arise.
        >
        I'm enjoying our paccaya (conditions) studies, even if I'm a bit slow...

        I should have 'twigged' you were talking about upanissaya paccaya (decisive
        support condition ) and not nissaya paccaya as the latter made no sense in
        the context...

        I'm also looking at Nina's Conditions and the section on pakatupanissaya and
        am reflecting on the discussion with Leonardo about sila as there is a
        connction by pakatupanissaya for performing other kusala and developing
        wisdom... I'll quote (but excuse any changes as I'm quoting from an older
        (1990) edition of NVG's Conditions as haven't printed out the new one
        yet....it's rather spaced out for that):

        'Also connected with the term pakatupanissaya is 'pakati' which means
        naturally, by nature. The conditioning factor conditions other dhammas to
        arise naturally, and it can condition them without the assistance of
        decisive support condition of object or proximate decisive support
        condition. For example, when there is strong saddha, confidence in kusala,
        it can be a cogent reason for the arising of kusala citta without there
        being the need to be dependent on decisive support condition of object and
        decisive support condition of proximity. We read in the "Patthana"...,that
        one, by the strong dependence of confidence performs dana, sila, develops
        jhana, learning, generosity or wisdom one performs kusala or develops jhana,
        insight, the Path...'

        *****

        In other words all kinds of kusala can support each other by this condition.

        Thanks,
        Sarah
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      • Sarah Procter Abbott
        Dear Kom, ... o.k. we ve sorted this out & as i said, I should have realised this is what you were referring to! ... right you are! ... o.k., here goes. i m
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 2, 2000
          Dear Kom,

          >From: Kom Tukovinit <kom@...>
          >Dear Sarah,
          >
          >I am sorry for the sloppy pali and english mix-up that I had; I still
          >haven't
          >looked at Nina's materials (have them on my computer now; thanks to
          >Robert), so I still don't know the right spellings. The "nisaya" that
          >was in
          >my earlier post, as below, is in fact a detailed classification of
          >"upanissaya"
          >pacaya: a mile apart from what my posting implied. There are three
          >detailed classification:
          >Aramanuapanissaya pacaya: upanissaya as sense object
          >Anatarupanissaya pacaya: upanissaya in the same way as anatara pacaya
          >Pakatupanissaya pacaya: upanissaya as something that gets accumulated
          >(???: I will search more on this for a better translation).


          o.k. we've sorted this out & as i said, I should have realised this is what
          you were referring to! >

          >Therefore, for phassa being pacaya for the vedana arising after it, it
          >is not a
          >nissaya pacaya, but it is a upanissaya pacaya.
          >
          right you are!

          >For the reference materials that I have regarding Nissaya pacaya, there
          >are
          >only three detailed classifications:
          > > 1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya
          > > (base-object-prenascence-dependence)
          > > 2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence)
          > > 3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence)
          >
          >I don't have the fourth one in the materials, and my understanding of
          >pali is
          >so superficial that I can't even guess what the fourth one is:
          > > 4.-sahajata-purejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence)
          >I would really appreciate it if you elaborate on the 4th.
          >

          o.k., here goes. i'm relying on 'The Guide', the commentary to the
          "Patthana" (PTS) which has probably had more use in the last 2 wks than in
          its previous 20yrs on my bookshelf!

          This is a combination of 2. (sahajata niss.) and 3. (vatthupurejata niss.)
          above. I quote: '..since base is included, it is not pure conascence
          (sahajata niss.) and since mental aggregates are included, it is not pure
          prenascence condition (vatthupurejata niss,). Because the conascent mental
          aggregates and prenascent base are taken together as the conditioning
          states, it is known as mixed conascence-prenascence condition.'

          It seems that these conditions always take place at the same time.
          One example would be where a combination is taking place such as when
          visible object, eye-base and eye consciousness are related to the' 7 primary
          mental factors' (i.e. cetasikas) by a combination of all the nissaya above
          (1., 2. and 3.....I think!)

          I don't know if this helps......


          What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the vultures,
          is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and again i quote
          from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!):

          '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and its
          accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which have arisen
          previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not cause the
          arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these rupas have
          arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long as
          seventeen moments of citta.'

          '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on the
          previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing
          experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which does not
          last longer than seventeen moments of citta....'

          This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of condtioning later
          but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already arisen....

          Thanks for all yr yseful prompts, Kom...... you're really a fast learner (I
          don't just mean intellectually)!

          Sarah

          p.s. will you be joining the rest of the Bay group to Bkk & Cambodia? if so,
          I look f/w to further discussion on paccaya w/you & K.Sujin.
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        • Kom Tukovinit
          Dear Sarah, ... Thanks for clarifying the matter. However, I am still confused of how the fourth type of Nissaya pacaya works. The (rambling) reasons for
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 2, 2000
            Dear Sarah,


            --- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@...> wrote:
            > o.k., here goes. i'm relying on 'The Guide', the commentary to the
            > "Patthana" (PTS) which has probably had more use in the last 2 wks
            > than in
            > its previous 20yrs on my bookshelf!
            >
            > This is a combination of 2. (sahajata niss.) and 3. (vatthupurejata
            > niss.)
            > above. I quote: '..since base is included, it is not pure conascence
            > (sahajata niss.) and since mental aggregates are included, it is not
            > pure
            > prenascence condition (vatthupurejata niss,). Because the conascent
            > mental
            > aggregates and prenascent base are taken together as the conditioning
            >
            > states, it is known as mixed conascence-prenascence condition.'
            >
            > It seems that these conditions always take place at the same time.
            > One example would be where a combination is taking place such as
            > when
            > visible object, eye-base and eye consciousness are related to the' 7
            > primary
            > mental factors' (i.e. cetasikas) by a combination of all the nissaya
            > above
            > (1., 2. and 3.....I think!)
            >
            > I don't know if this helps......

            Thanks for clarifying the matter. However, I am still confused of how
            the fourth type of Nissaya pacaya works. The (rambling) reasons for
            confusion are the followings:
            1) When discussing pacaya, the conditioning dhamma (paccaya) and the
            conditioned dhamma (paccayapanna dhamma) can be pinned down from both
            time and type. For example, phassa arising now is an ahara pacaya for
            the citta arising at the same time.
            2) This doesn't seem to be true to the 4th classification: I can't
            think of any pacaya dhamma than can be both sahajata (rupa nama being
            pacaya to rupa nama) and purejata (rupa being pacaya to nama) at the
            same time.
            3) Dhammas that can be Vathupurejata pacaya to nama are the base
            objects, but only the heartbase can be sahajata to the patisandhi
            nama. However, the heartbase can't be both sahajata and Vathupurejata
            pacaya to the same nama at the same time: it can be sahajata to
            patisandhi namas, and then Vathupurejata for different sets of nama
            arising after it.
            4) What I understand from your conclusion is that this particular
            condition MUST have multiple dhammas contributing as pacayas.
            5) This is certainly different from the explanations of other pacayas
            as the explanations follow rule 1) above.
            6) I think the other classifications of nissaya (sahajata,
            vathupurejata, vatharamanapurejata) have already covered the condition
            explained in sahajata-vathupurejata missaka.
            7) Possibly, this is the reason why other sources don't discuss these
            4th classification.
            8) Maybe Khun Amara, Robert, and others will help here!!!

            >
            >
            > What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the
            > vultures,
            > is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and again
            > i quote
            > from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!):
            >
            > '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and its
            > accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which have
            > arisen
            > previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not cause
            > the
            > arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these
            > rupas have
            > arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long as
            > seventeen moments of citta.'
            >
            > '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on
            > the
            > previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing
            > experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which does
            > not
            > last longer than seventeen moments of citta....'
            Yes, Nina mentioned that condition can be
            purejata (pre-nascence)
            sahajata (conascence)
            paccajata (post-nascense)

            Besides the time of arising, the pacaya can also be:
            atthi (presence-condition)
            natthi (absence-condition)
            vigata (disappearance [gone])
            avigata (non-disappearance [still there])

            Just the combination of the jata and the
            presence/absence/disappearance/non-disappearance alone is already mind-
            boggling! A. Santi mentioned once that there are 71 pacaya for the
            seeing citta. This doesn't include how citta is also pacaya for the
            cetasikas, cetasikas for cetasikas, citta to rupa, etc...


            >
            > This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of condtioning
            > later
            > but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already arisen....

            Dhammas can be pacayas in three different ways:
            1) cause of arising
            2) support/consolidating (no corresponding Thai translation???)
            3) both cause of arising and support

            >
            > Thanks for all yr yseful prompts, Kom...... you're really a fast
            > learner (I
            > don't just mean intellectually)!

            Thanks. I only quote from some books every time your prompt me.

            > p.s. will you be joining the rest of the Bay group to Bkk & Cambodia?
            > if so,
            > I look f/w to further discussion on paccaya w/you & K.Sujin.

            I am going through the infamous INS naturalization interview on Nov 16,
            making it impossible to make an advanced arrangement. Unless the
            interview goes well, AND there is still a space left [I think unlikely]
            in the tour group leaving for Cambodia, I won't be joining you.
            However, Khun Jack, Khun Oy, and Khun O are joining. Khun Jack is also
            particularly keen on the pacaya discussions; I believe he will be
            asking for Tan A. Sujin to elaborate on the subject.

            Anumodhana



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          • amara chay
            ... Dear Sarah and Kom, I ve enjoyed your discussions very much but I have very little to add, except for this reminder from the Summary, Citta Chapter 13
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 3, 2000
              --- In dhammastudygroup@egroups.com, Kom Tukovinit <kom@a...> wrote:




              > 8) Maybe Khun Amara, Robert, and others will help here!!!


              Dear Sarah and Kom,

              I've enjoyed your discussions very much but I have very little to add,
              except for this reminder from the Summary, Citta Chapter 13 (p.248)
              part IIa in the website:

              Paccaya is a reality that benefits and assists other realities to
              arise or maintain them according to the specific kinds of conditions.
              Phassa-cetasika, for example, is not a lobha-cetasika, while both
              phassa-cetasika and lobha-cetasika are paccaya beneficent to the
              arising of other realities such as citta, cetasika and rupa. Since
              the characteristics and functions of phassa-cetasika differ from those
              of lobha-cetasika, the phassa-cetasika would be a different paccaya
              from lobha-cetasika.

              Phassa-cetasika is condition by being an ahara-paccaya. Ahara
              is a reality that brings results but it is not so steadfast as to make
              things flourish like the main root of a tree. While the realities
              that are hetu are paccaya by becoming the causes, like the tap root.
              Trees cannot flourish with the tap roots alone. There must be soil
              and water as nutrients. But without this main root, the soil and
              water cannot make the tree develop fully. Trees with tap roots would
              flourish differently from plants without one in the same way. Other
              realities than the 6 cetasika that are hetu are paccaya by being other
              conditions and not hetu-paccaya.

              The Patthana Book, which is the seventh and last book in the
              Abhidammapitaka, manifests realities by their inter-conditioning: by
              being different paccaya. The first paccaya is hetu-paccaya, which
              shows the importance of realities that are hetu. At funerals when
              bhikkhu intone the abhidamma, they begin with "hetu-paccayo", which
              are lobha-hetu, dosa-hetu, moha-hetu, alobha-hetu, adosa-hetu and
              amoha-hetu, to remind us that the realities that are causes for future
              results as future lifetimes and beings, are the six cetasika, namely
              lobha-cetasika, dosa-cetasika, moha-cetasika, alobha-cetasika,
              adosa-cetasika and panna-cetasika.

              Truly, each kind of reality is of its own specific importance.
              The Buddha not only manifested one but many paccaya. Nor did he
              merely manifest arammana that is paccaya for citta to arise and
              experience it (the arammana) as the only "arammana paccaya" for the
              citta. But he manifested each and every paccaya in detail for the 24
              major paccaya as well as their minor paccaya.

              Cakkhuppasada-rupa arises because of other paccaya than the
              hetu- paccaya. And cakkhuppasada is, in turn, a paccaya by being the
              reality that is eminent: the indriya-paccaya, or being paccaya by
              being a reality that is predominant in its duty and function.
              Cakkhuppasada is cakkhundriya, the rupa which is the principal in
              being paccaya for cakkhu-vinnana to arise and see visual objects
              through the eyes. Without cakkhuppasada, sotappasada, ghanappasada,
              jivhappasada and kayappasada, what would this body be like? Like a
              log that does not see, hear, smell, taste or know bodysense contact.
              Therefore, the 5 pasada-rupa are paccaya by being indriya-paccaya or
              eminent in their specific functions such as the cakkhuppasada-rupa
              being predominant in coming into contact with ruparammana thus causing
              cakkhu-vinnana to arise and see what appears through the eyes because
              other rupa cannot perform this function. The object appearing through
              the eyes could be clear or not depending on the state, the clarity of
              the cakkhuppasada-rupa, which does not depend on cetana or desire or
              intention of anyone but on the indriya-paccaya of seeing, namely the
              cakkhuppasada-rupa.

              All realities are paccaya for other realities to arise by
              being diverse kinds of paccaya. (…)

              (There are also other places where she talks about this.)


              > > What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the
              > > vultures,
              > > is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and
              again
              > > i quote
              > > from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!):
              > >
              > > '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and
              its
              > > accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which
              have
              > > arisen
              > > previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not
              cause
              > > the
              > > arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these
              > > rupas have
              > > arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long
              as
              > > seventeen moments of citta.'
              > >
              > > '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on
              > > the
              > > previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing
              > > experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which
              does
              > > not
              > > last longer than seventeen moments of citta....'
              > Yes, Nina mentioned that condition can be
              > purejata (pre-nascence)
              > sahajata (conascence)
              > paccajata (post-nascense)
              >
              > Besides the time of arising, the pacaya can also be:
              > atthi (presence-condition)
              > natthi (absence-condition)
              > vigata (disappearance [gone])
              > avigata (non-disappearance [still there])
              >
              > Just the combination of the jata and the
              > presence/absence/disappearance/non-disappearance alone is already
              mind-
              > boggling! A. Santi mentioned once that there are 71 pacaya for the
              > seeing citta. This doesn't include how citta is also pacaya for the
              > cetasikas, cetasikas for cetasikas, citta to rupa, etc...


              I think this is because of the parallel and unequal duration of the
              rupa and the nama that experience them, so that the rupa, as fast as
              the speed of light is (since light is also rupa), is 17 times the
              duration of the nama. When they start off at the same time say in a
              vithi process, there has to be the two extra tadarambana to make the
              equation. When they start of at different moments, sometimes the
              vithi ends up incomplete and inoperative. And because of their
              unequal duration, and still are conditions for one another to arise, I
              think that under some circumstances rupas could become both present
              and future paccaya for nama, since, as Nina said, they last longer, so
              that future rupa, born this instant, would not have fallen awan when
              the co-nascent citta has, and becomes future paccaya for the
              subsequent several citta in the process as well. (This gets even more
              complicated with the sub moments of the duration of both realities as
              well as multiplied by the meeeting of the ayatana through each dvara)

              And then there are 24 major paccaya and I don't remember how much of
              the detailed ones, in zillions of possible combinations!

              > > This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of
              condtioning
              > > later
              > > but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already
              arisen....
              >
              > Dhammas can be pacayas in three different ways:
              > 1) cause of arising
              > 2) support/consolidating (no corresponding Thai translation???)

              See the 'Summary' pages above in the Thai version,

              > 3) both cause of arising and support

              Khun Sujin has told Betty we would get to study the paccaya one day,
              but we're still on other things at the moment, and the paccaya so
              detailed and complex it might take some time. The main point is that
              while one may never know, unless one were the Buddha, what exacty
              causes and conditions this moment of seeing, one knows that it has
              arisen from at least this or that number of major and minor paccaya,
              and not because one made it happen or that some god did! All this
              complicated conglomerations are not the self, they arise from
              accumulated conditions.

              Still it's so interesting trying to figure it out, isn't it? I really
              look forward to reading more!

              Anumodana to you both,

              Amara
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