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Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body

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  • Sarah
    Hi Rob M (and the ‘laying down the body’ corner;-)), You ll see I start with your questions and can t resist getting side-tracked into the other
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
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      Hi Rob M (and the ‘laying down the body’ corner;-)),

      You'll see I start with your questions and can't resist getting
      side-tracked into the other discussion.

      --- robmoult <rob.moult@...> wrote: > Hi All,
      >
      > Does anybody know the proximate cause of masculinity, femininity and
      > heart base?
      >
      > I suspect that it might be sankhara; according to paticcasamuppada,
      > patisandhi-citta depends upon sankhara to arise and it is the
      > patisandhi-citta which has the characteristics to masculinity /
      > femininity and heart base.
      >
      > Comments?
      .....
      I’m not sure that we can talk about ‘proximate cause’ fo rupas. Usually
      this term is used for mental factors. From the Atthasalini: “Immediate
      occasion (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause. Thus wherever we speak
      of characteristics, etc <of those states>, their mutual difference should
      be understood in this wise.” (p.84 in transl).

      Also I don’t understand what you mean when you say “patisandhi-citta which
      has the characteristics to masculinity / femininity and heart base.”
      Masculinity, femininity and heart-base are 3 subtle rupas produced by
      kamma from the first moment of life (patisandhi citta). So it is entirely
      as a result of kamma what the sex is and also, as long as patisandhi citta
      arises in the sensuous plane or any other plane with nama and rupa, there
      must be heart- base from the beginning. All cittas other than the 5 sense
      experiencing cittas depend on it.

      Cittas arise continually according to conditions. We have a conventional
      idea about new birth, but actually it’s only the continuation of namas and
      rupas according to kamma and other causes. In planes with 5 khandhas,
      there cannot be nama without rupa and so these rupas must be conditioned
      to arise at rebirth by several conditions including kamma and also
      conascence condition (sahajata paccaya) whereby the patisandhi citta and
      heart-base rupa condition each other.The patisandhi citta is also
      conascence condition for the other groups of rupa (including the sex
      faculty) produced by kamma.

      As you know, the kamma and other conditions bringing about vipaka citta
      are very complex. By proximity condition (anantara paccaya), cittas have
      to succeed each other ‘without interval’ (leaving aside special cases of
      ‘suspension’ of citta in arupa jhana and asanna satta planes). Thus the
      last citta of life must be succeeded immediately by the first citta of the
      new life. If there is the understanding of cittas, cetasikas and rupas (no
      people or places), then it’s easier to understand different kinds of
      vipaka and conditions and so on.

      There are 4 different kinds of birth by womb, eggs, moisture and
      spontaneous. Nina gives more details in ‘Abhidhamma’ ch 10 and 11. She
      points out there that we cannot know when life ends or starts exactly as
      we don’t know others’ cittas. Similarly we can never know what kamma will
      produce the next patisandhi citta. It may be from a previous life. Though
      “the present life is different from the past life but there is continuity
      in so far as the present life is conditioned by the past. Since the
      patisandhi citta succeeds the cuti citta of the previous life the
      accumulated tendencies of past life go on to the patisandhi citta. Thus,
      inclinations one has in the present life are conditioned by the past.”

      *****
      I just followed Jim’s very helpful comments and reference below in the
      Kathavatthu and commentary:

      “The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of
      existence and there are many references to this term in the
      commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the
      Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII.2
      where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an
      intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can
      read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of
      Kv. “

      As the summary from the commentary reads “Some..., by a careless
      aceptation of the Sutta-phrase - ‘completed existence within the interval’
      - held that there is an interim stage where a being awaits reconception
      for a week or longer. The counter-argument is based on the Exalted One’s
      dictum that there are three states of becoming only - the Kaama-, the
      Ruupa-, and the Aruupa worlds. (SN, 11, 3 etc).”

      Unlike Howard, I tend to think the question of anatta is of relevance.
      Isn’t it only when there is an idea of ‘beings’ rather than a continuous
      succession of cittas, that these questions arise? Even in a dream-like or
      coma-like state, there is a succession of cittas and conditioned and
      conditioning rupas.

      Sarah
      =====


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    • upasaka@aol.com
      Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/4/02 3:48:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... ============================= I agree with your last two sentences. My point was
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
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        Hi, Sarah -

        In a message dated 10/4/02 3:48:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
        sarahdhhk@... writes:


        > Unlike Howard, I tend to think the question of anatta is of relevance.
        > Isn’t it only when there is an idea of ‘beings’ rather than a continuous
        > succession of cittas, that these questions arise? Even in a dream-like or
        > coma-like state, there is a succession of cittas and conditioned and
        > conditioning rupas.
        >
        =============================
        I agree with your last two sentences. My point was that conventional
        existence in alleged intermediate realms is no more a matter of atta than is
        conventional existence in a standard realm such as the human realm. As I
        wrote: Even right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent
        "existence", there really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing
        things. Right now we are empty of essence, empty of self.

        With metta,
        Howard



        /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
        in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
        phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Christine, I also have Buddhadatta s dict, small and handy to get around fast. On the first p. I write the letters in the Pali alphabetical order and then
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
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          Dear Christine,

          I also have Buddhadatta's dict, small and handy to get around fast. On the
          first p. I write the letters in the Pali alphabetical order and then the
          page no. behind, for quick reference.
          Self teaching is fine, your own pace. Warder lets you read already at about
          Ch 18, makes it interesting.
          Success,
          Nina.
          op 03-10-2002 13:44 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@...:

          >
          > I do have Warder (3rd Edition), de Silva, and Rhys David's and
          > Stede's Pali-English dictionary. Perhaps I'll give it a try and work
          > through de Silva's Lessons first, then go on to those by Horner. I
          > hope I could be as diligent as you are, though I think languages
          > require a certain talent as well. ( I hate to admit this, but I
          > experience difficulty finding my way around the P-E Dictionary ...).
          >
        • Uan Chih Liu
          Hi Howard, Christine, ... such ... the ... the ... Even ... there ... are ... I think I can empathize with Christine since we are both coming from Christianity
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
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            Hi Howard, Christine,

            > Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept intermediate
            > states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details, however,
            > about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans consider
            such
            > states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49 days. I
            > would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved - like
            the
            > "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral body of
            the
            > occultists.
            > I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at all.
            Even
            > right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence",
            there
            > really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we
            are
            > empty of essence, empty of self.
            >
            I think I can empathize with Christine since we are both coming from
            Christianity background. The talk of rebirth inevitably leads one to
            interpret
            that there is this eternal "soul" that is going through different states,
            and different
            realms of experience. Sure, there is no "you" and "I" as unitary,
            continuing beings,
            as it is composed of ever changing elements. However, if one were to
            decompose
            "being" to the finest granuity, can we eventually identify an element that
            is so
            small and yet so powerful that we identify as "soul" that is what bring
            "beings"
            to "life", the third "THING" for rebirth to occur, the recipient of panna,
            the thing
            that's clinging, accumulating? Sure, this elements changes, adds and
            subtracts
            continuously, but is there a underlying gem that is constant? Buddhism says
            no,
            I guess if you divide things infinitely, if you divide by infinity, you will
            get zero,
            emptiness.

            WL
          • upasaka@aol.com
            Hi, WL - In a message dated 10/4/02 1:29:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... =============================== It s not just that. First of all, there is just a
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
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              Hi, WL -

              In a message dated 10/4/02 1:29:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
              uanchihliu@... writes:


              >
              > Hi Howard, Christine,
              >
              > > Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept
              > intermediate
              > > states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details, however,
              > > about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans consider
              > such
              > > states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49 days. I
              > > would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved - like
              > the
              > > "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral body of
              > the
              > > occultists.
              > > I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at all.
              > Even
              > > right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence",
              > there
              > > really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we
              > are
              > > empty of essence, empty of self.
              > >
              > I think I can empathize with Christine since we are both coming from
              > Christianity background. The talk of rebirth inevitably leads one to
              > interpret
              > that there is this eternal "soul" that is going through different states,
              > and different
              > realms of experience. Sure, there is no "you" and "I" as unitary,
              > continuing beings,
              > as it is composed of ever changing elements. However, if one were to
              > decompose
              > "being" to the finest granuity, can we eventually identify an element that
              > is so
              > small and yet so powerful that we identify as "soul" that is what bring
              > "beings"
              > to "life", the third "THING" for rebirth to occur, the recipient of panna,
              > the thing
              > that's clinging, accumulating? Sure, this elements changes, adds and
              > subtracts
              > continuously, but is there a underlying gem that is constant? Buddhism
              > says
              > no,
              > I guess if you divide things infinitely, if you divide by infinity, you
              > will
              > get zero,
              > emptiness.
              >
              > WL
              >
              >
              ===============================
              It's not just that. First of all, there is just a sequence of events,
              not "things". Secondly, when you write <<Sure, there is no "you" and "I" as
              unitary,
              continuing beings, as it is composed of ever changing elements.>> I think you
              miss the mark slightly. There are not ever-changing elements. Impermanence
              doesn't mean that "things change". It means that things don't remain. An
              event occurs, and then ceases. Later events arise conditioned by earlier
              ones. That's all - empty phenomena rolling on.

              With metta,
              Howard

              /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
              in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
              phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • LBIDD@webtv.net
              Howard: Impermanence doesn t mean that things change . It means that things don t remain. An event occurs, and then ceases. Later events arise conditioned by
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
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                Howard: "Impermanence doesn't mean that "things change". It means that
                things don't remain. An event occurs, and then ceases. Later events
                arise conditioned by earlier ones. That's all - empty phenomena rolling
                on."

                L: Nice one Howard. Well said.

                Larry
              • Paul Ajahn
                try this http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html ... Dear Christine, ... _________________________________________________________
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
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                  try this
                  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html

                  --- Nina van Gorkom <nilo@...> 的郵件內容:>
                  Dear Christine,
                  >
                  > I also have Buddhadatta's dict, small and handy to
                  > get around fast. On the
                  > first p. I write the letters in the Pali
                  > alphabetical order and then the
                  > page no. behind, for quick reference.
                  > Self teaching is fine, your own pace. Warder lets
                  > you read already at about
                  > Ch 18, makes it interesting.
                  > Success,
                  > Nina.
                  > op 03-10-2002 13:44 schreef christine_forsyth op
                  > cforsyth@...:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > I do have Warder (3rd Edition), de Silva, and Rhys
                  > David's and
                  > > Stede's Pali-English dictionary. Perhaps I'll give
                  > it a try and work
                  > > through de Silva's Lessons first, then go on to
                  > those by Horner. I
                  > > hope I could be as diligent as you are, though I
                  > think languages
                  > > require a certain talent as well. ( I hate to
                  > admit this, but I
                  > > experience difficulty finding my way around the
                  > P-E Dictionary ...).
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >

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                • christine_forsyth
                  Thanks Paul, looks like it could be useful. metta, Christine
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
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                    Thanks Paul, looks like it could be useful.
                    metta,
                    Christine

                    --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Paul Ajahn <ajahn_paul@y...> wrote:
                    > try this
                    > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html
                    >
                    > --- Nina van Gorkom <nilo@e...> ªº¶l¥ó¤º®e¡G>
                    > Dear Christine,
                    > >
                    > > I also have Buddhadatta's dict, small and handy to
                    > > get around fast. On the
                    > > first p. I write the letters in the Pali
                    > > alphabetical order and then the
                    > > page no. behind, for quick reference.
                    > > Self teaching is fine, your own pace. Warder lets
                    > > you read already at about
                    > > Ch 18, makes it interesting.
                    > > Success,
                    > > Nina.
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