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Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body

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  • Jim Anderson
    Dear Christine,Thank you, Jim. I hope I don t have to annoy you in dribs and drabs of quotes from the Suttas about this. It is just that I don t
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 2, 2002
      Dear Christine,

      > Thank you, Jim. I hope I don't have to annoy you in dribs and drabs
      > of quotes from the Suttas about this. It is just that I don't
      > remember noticing this topic before, and now it seems to be popping
      > up everywhere. I sometimes wonder if I should try to learn Pali -
      > would it take years to become proficient even at a beginner stage?

      Yes, I think so from my own experience but any amount of learning
      however small can be of help. I first came into contact with Buddhism
      in 1970 and became interested in the Pali language in 1973 but it
      wasn't until 1976 after I had bought a well-worn second hand copy of
      Warder's Introduction to Pali (which incidentally contains a line in
      Ven. H. Saddhatissa's own handwriting) that I then decided that it was
      time to begin and ever since -- learning and reading Pali continues to
      be of primary interest to me. And looking back now, I think it was one
      of the best decisions I ever made. No regrets here!

      > The University of Qld does run Introductory and Advanced courses in
      > Pali in its Studies in Religion School (presented only in the day
      > time though -and the Hospital can't quite be brought to the
      > understanding of the benefit in granting me study leave for Pali -
      > even in a multi-cultural area.:).

      I didn't learn Pali by taking courses at a university although I had
      seriously considered doing so. The only Pali teacher I studied
      (briefly) with was a Sinhalese student of Prof. Warder in 1980 who was
      doing his Ph.D. and most of the learning has been done on my own with
      the help of a growing collection of Pali books. The self-taught way
      has worked fine for me although it's probably a much slower way as one
      just goes at the pace desired and without the pressure of homework
      assignments. The important thing is to nurture the interest and keep
      it alive, the rest will follow.

      > It is just frustrating to be in
      > the power of the Translators and not even know if they themselves
      are
      > in error.

      This is where a knowledge of Pali comes in handy as you can check the
      translations with the Pali originals and look up stuff in the
      commentaries, most of which still remain untranslated into English.

      > Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is
      > a crucially important matter don't you think? Not just whether a
      > Pali word means 'dark green' or 'aquamarine', or whether a comma or
      a
      > semi-colon should have been used. I am very grateful that you (and
      > others on the list) are able to throw some additional light on the
      > Scriptures and translations.

      The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of
      existence and there are many references to this term in the
      commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the
      Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII.2
      where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an
      intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can
      read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of
      Kv.

      > In another Sutta, the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta 'The Greater Discourse
      > on the Destruction of Craving' - the Blessed One is demolishing
      > the 'pernicious view' of Sati (I always feel so sorry for Sati).
      > There does seem here to be a mention of a being-in-waiting ... In
      > the section (The Round of Existence: Conception to Maturity) the
      > Buddha says "Bhikkhus, the conception of an embryo in a womb takes
      > place through the union of three things. Here, there is union of
      the
      > mother and father, but it not the mother's season, and THE BEING TO
      > BE REBORN IS NOT PRESENT - in this case there is not conception of
      an
      > embryo in a womb. Here, there is the union of the mother and
      father,
      > and it is the mother's season, BUT THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS NOT
      > PRESENT - in this case too there is no conception of an embryo in a
      > womb. But when there is a union of the mother and father and it is
      > the mother's season, AND THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS PRESENT, THROUGH
      > THE UNION OF THESE THREE THINGS THE CONCEPTION OF AN EMBRYO IN A
      > WOMB TAKES PLACE."

      "THE BEING TO BE REBORN" is 'gandhabba' in Pali. I'm not at all clear
      on this term as the commentary says that 'gantabba' is what is really
      meant. Gandhabba is also a term used for a lower class of deities
      sometimes referred to as celestial musicians (cupids?) who facilitate
      conception. There is a chapter in SN called Gandhabbasa.myutta. More
      research would be needed for me to say much more.

      Best wishes,
      Jim


      ______________________________________________________________________
      Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
    • upasaka@aol.com
      Hi, Chris - In a message dated 10/2/02 4:45:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... =========================== Harvey s position is that original Buddhism did accept
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 2, 2002
        Hi, Chris -

        In a message dated 10/2/02 4:45:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
        cforsyth@... writes:


        >
        > Dear Howard, Jim and All,
        >
        > Howard, thank you for your post. I would be very interested if you
        > have the time to see if Prof. Harvey has anything of significance to
        > say about 'something' that exists between births. Does he come to
        > any conclusions himself, as to the likelihood or otherwise of
        > a 'something' waiting in a 'somewhere' for 'sometime' after death and
        > before rebirth? ( I wonder about what 'form' it would take in between
        > births in very different Planes; how long it would be there and what
        > it would do while there). And I also wonder how this would
        > integrate with what I have been taught about the absolute anatta-ness
        > of everything.
        >
        ===========================
        Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept intermediate
        states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details, however,
        about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans consider such
        states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49 days. I
        would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved - like the
        "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral body of the
        occultists.
        I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at all. Even
        right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence", there
        really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we are
        empty of essence, empty of self.

        With metta,
        Howard

        /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
        in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
        phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • christine_forsyth
        Good point Rob. I think I was getting tangled up in my thinking. Nothing like dsg-ers to straighten that out. :) metta, Christine ... to
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 3, 2002
          Good point Rob. I think I was getting tangled up in my thinking.
          Nothing like dsg-ers to straighten that out. :)

          metta,
          Christine

          --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" <rob.moult@j...> wrote:
          > Hi Christine,
          >
          > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" <cforsyth@v...>
          > wrote:
          > > Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is
          > > a crucially important matter don't you think?
          >
          > I am going to play devil's advocate here and take an opposing view.
          >
          > "Instantaneous rebirth" or "non-Instantaneous rebirth" does not
          > impact kamma, four noble truths, eightfold noble path,
          > paticcasamuppada or any of the "core" teachings of the Buddha. Why
          > make it an issue?
          >
          > Tissa was reborn as a flea for seven days because he was attached
          to
          > his robe. Following that, he was again reborn as a deva in Tusita
          > heaven. Unlike the deva planes (and higher), the four woeful planes
          > and the human plane have indefinite lifespans. Why can't we be born
          > in one of these planes for a short time and then be reborn into
          > another plane due to our reserve (katatta) kamma?
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Rob M :-)
        • christine_forsyth
          Thanks Howard. I think I ll get The Selfless Mind - you seem to think highly of it, and I value PH s Intro. to Buddhist Ethics . metta, Chris ... Harvey s
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 3, 2002
            Thanks Howard. I think I'll get 'The Selfless Mind' - you seem to
            think highly of it, and I value PH's 'Intro. to Buddhist Ethics'.

            metta,
            Chris

            --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote:
            > Hi, Chris -
            Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept
            intermediate
            > states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details,
            however,
            > about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans
            consider such
            > states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49
            days. I
            > would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved -
            like the
            > "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral
            body of the
            > occultists.
            > I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at
            all. Even
            > right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our
            apparent "existence", there
            > really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right
            now we are
            > empty of essence, empty of self.
            >
            > With metta,
            > Howard
            >
            > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn,
            a bubble
            > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering
            lamp, a
            > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond
            Sutra)
          • christine_forsyth
            Hi Jim, Thanks for your helpful comments on antaraabhava and gandhabba . I have had a look at the Gandhabbasamyutta - the devas of the gandhabba order are
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 3, 2002
              Hi Jim,

              Thanks for your helpful comments on 'antaraabhava' and 'gandhabba'.
              I have had a look at the
              Gandhabbasamyutta - the devas of the gandhabba order are 'long-lived
              and beautiful, and abound in happiness.' dwelling in fragrant roots,
              heartwood, softwood, fragrant bark, shoots, leaves, flowers, fruits,
              sap, and scents" ... it actually reminds me of the works of an
              Australian writer and artist May Gibbs well known for her childrens'
              tales and illustrations of the Adventures of Snugglepot and Cuddlepie
              who were Gumnuts (woody seed pods of the Eucalyptus or Gum tree).

              I do have Warder (3rd Edition), de Silva, and Rhys David's and
              Stede's Pali-English dictionary. Perhaps I'll give it a try and work
              through de Silva's Lessons first, then go on to those by Horner. I
              hope I could be as diligent as you are, though I think languages
              require a certain talent as well. ( I hate to admit this, but I
              experience difficulty finding my way around the P-E Dictionary ...).

              metta,
              Christine

              --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
              wrote:
              > Dear Christine,
              >
              > > Thank you, Jim. I hope I don't have to annoy you in dribs and
              drabs
              > > of quotes from the Suttas about this. It is just that I don't
              > > remember noticing this topic before, and now it seems to be
              popping
              > > up everywhere. I sometimes wonder if I should try to learn
              Pali -
              > > would it take years to become proficient even at a beginner stage?
              >
              > Yes, I think so from my own experience but any amount of learning
              > however small can be of help. I first came into contact with
              Buddhism
              > in 1970 and became interested in the Pali language in 1973 but it
              > wasn't until 1976 after I had bought a well-worn second hand copy of
              > Warder's Introduction to Pali (which incidentally contains a line in
              > Ven. H. Saddhatissa's own handwriting) that I then decided that it
              was
              > time to begin and ever since -- learning and reading Pali continues
              to
              > be of primary interest to me. And looking back now, I think it was
              one
              > of the best decisions I ever made. No regrets here!
              >
              > > The University of Qld does run Introductory and Advanced courses
              in
              > > Pali in its Studies in Religion School (presented only in the day
              > > time though -and the Hospital can't quite be brought to the
              > > understanding of the benefit in granting me study leave for Pali -
              > > even in a multi-cultural area.:).
              >
              > I didn't learn Pali by taking courses at a university although I had
              > seriously considered doing so. The only Pali teacher I studied
              > (briefly) with was a Sinhalese student of Prof. Warder in 1980 who
              was
              > doing his Ph.D. and most of the learning has been done on my own
              with
              > the help of a growing collection of Pali books. The self-taught way
              > has worked fine for me although it's probably a much slower way as
              one
              > just goes at the pace desired and without the pressure of homework
              > assignments. The important thing is to nurture the interest and keep
              > it alive, the rest will follow.
              >
              > > It is just frustrating to be in
              > > the power of the Translators and not even know if they themselves
              > are
              > > in error.
              >
              > This is where a knowledge of Pali comes in handy as you can check
              the
              > translations with the Pali originals and look up stuff in the
              > commentaries, most of which still remain untranslated into English.
              >
              > > Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is
              > > a crucially important matter don't you think? Not just whether a
              > > Pali word means 'dark green' or 'aquamarine', or whether a comma
              or
              > a
              > > semi-colon should have been used. I am very grateful that you
              (and
              > > others on the list) are able to throw some additional light on the
              > > Scriptures and translations.
              >
              > The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state
              of
              > existence and there are many references to this term in the
              > commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the
              > Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga
              VIII.2
              > where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an
              > intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You
              can
              > read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation
              of
              > Kv.
              >
              > > In another Sutta, the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta 'The Greater
              Discourse
              > > on the Destruction of Craving' - the Blessed One is demolishing
              > > the 'pernicious view' of Sati (I always feel so sorry for Sati).
              > > There does seem here to be a mention of a being-in-waiting ... In
              > > the section (The Round of Existence: Conception to Maturity) the
              > > Buddha says "Bhikkhus, the conception of an embryo in a womb takes
              > > place through the union of three things. Here, there is union of
              > the
              > > mother and father, but it not the mother's season, and THE BEING
              TO
              > > BE REBORN IS NOT PRESENT - in this case there is not conception of
              > an
              > > embryo in a womb. Here, there is the union of the mother and
              > father,
              > > and it is the mother's season, BUT THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS NOT
              > > PRESENT - in this case too there is no conception of an embryo in
              a
              > > womb. But when there is a union of the mother and father and it
              is
              > > the mother's season, AND THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS PRESENT,
              THROUGH
              > > THE UNION OF THESE THREE THINGS THE CONCEPTION OF AN EMBRYO IN A
              > > WOMB TAKES PLACE."
              >
              > "THE BEING TO BE REBORN" is 'gandhabba' in Pali. I'm not at all
              clear
              > on this term as the commentary says that 'gantabba' is what is
              really
              > meant. Gandhabba is also a term used for a lower class of deities
              > sometimes referred to as celestial musicians (cupids?) who
              facilitate
              > conception. There is a chapter in SN called Gandhabbasa.myutta. More
              > research would be needed for me to say much more.
              >
              > Best wishes,
              > Jim
            • Sarah
              Hi Rob M (and the ‘laying down the body’ corner;-)), You ll see I start with your questions and can t resist getting side-tracked into the other
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
                Hi Rob M (and the ‘laying down the body’ corner;-)),

                You'll see I start with your questions and can't resist getting
                side-tracked into the other discussion.

                --- robmoult <rob.moult@...> wrote: > Hi All,
                >
                > Does anybody know the proximate cause of masculinity, femininity and
                > heart base?
                >
                > I suspect that it might be sankhara; according to paticcasamuppada,
                > patisandhi-citta depends upon sankhara to arise and it is the
                > patisandhi-citta which has the characteristics to masculinity /
                > femininity and heart base.
                >
                > Comments?
                .....
                I’m not sure that we can talk about ‘proximate cause’ fo rupas. Usually
                this term is used for mental factors. From the Atthasalini: “Immediate
                occasion (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause. Thus wherever we speak
                of characteristics, etc <of those states>, their mutual difference should
                be understood in this wise.” (p.84 in transl).

                Also I don’t understand what you mean when you say “patisandhi-citta which
                has the characteristics to masculinity / femininity and heart base.”
                Masculinity, femininity and heart-base are 3 subtle rupas produced by
                kamma from the first moment of life (patisandhi citta). So it is entirely
                as a result of kamma what the sex is and also, as long as patisandhi citta
                arises in the sensuous plane or any other plane with nama and rupa, there
                must be heart- base from the beginning. All cittas other than the 5 sense
                experiencing cittas depend on it.

                Cittas arise continually according to conditions. We have a conventional
                idea about new birth, but actually it’s only the continuation of namas and
                rupas according to kamma and other causes. In planes with 5 khandhas,
                there cannot be nama without rupa and so these rupas must be conditioned
                to arise at rebirth by several conditions including kamma and also
                conascence condition (sahajata paccaya) whereby the patisandhi citta and
                heart-base rupa condition each other.The patisandhi citta is also
                conascence condition for the other groups of rupa (including the sex
                faculty) produced by kamma.

                As you know, the kamma and other conditions bringing about vipaka citta
                are very complex. By proximity condition (anantara paccaya), cittas have
                to succeed each other ‘without interval’ (leaving aside special cases of
                ‘suspension’ of citta in arupa jhana and asanna satta planes). Thus the
                last citta of life must be succeeded immediately by the first citta of the
                new life. If there is the understanding of cittas, cetasikas and rupas (no
                people or places), then it’s easier to understand different kinds of
                vipaka and conditions and so on.

                There are 4 different kinds of birth by womb, eggs, moisture and
                spontaneous. Nina gives more details in ‘Abhidhamma’ ch 10 and 11. She
                points out there that we cannot know when life ends or starts exactly as
                we don’t know others’ cittas. Similarly we can never know what kamma will
                produce the next patisandhi citta. It may be from a previous life. Though
                “the present life is different from the past life but there is continuity
                in so far as the present life is conditioned by the past. Since the
                patisandhi citta succeeds the cuti citta of the previous life the
                accumulated tendencies of past life go on to the patisandhi citta. Thus,
                inclinations one has in the present life are conditioned by the past.”

                *****
                I just followed Jim’s very helpful comments and reference below in the
                Kathavatthu and commentary:

                “The Pali word for Bardo is 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state of
                existence and there are many references to this term in the
                commentaries and seems to occur only in the Kathaavatthu text of the
                Tipitaka. There is an informative debate on this issue in Vagga VIII.2
                where the Pubbaseliyas and the Sammitiyas maintain that there is an
                intermediate state of existence. The Theravadins refute this. You can
                read it in Points of Controversy, 212ff. which is a PTS translation of
                Kv. “

                As the summary from the commentary reads “Some..., by a careless
                aceptation of the Sutta-phrase - ‘completed existence within the interval’
                - held that there is an interim stage where a being awaits reconception
                for a week or longer. The counter-argument is based on the Exalted One’s
                dictum that there are three states of becoming only - the Kaama-, the
                Ruupa-, and the Aruupa worlds. (SN, 11, 3 etc).”

                Unlike Howard, I tend to think the question of anatta is of relevance.
                Isn’t it only when there is an idea of ‘beings’ rather than a continuous
                succession of cittas, that these questions arise? Even in a dream-like or
                coma-like state, there is a succession of cittas and conditioned and
                conditioning rupas.

                Sarah
                =====


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              • upasaka@aol.com
                Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/4/02 3:48:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... ============================= I agree with your last two sentences. My point was
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
                  Hi, Sarah -

                  In a message dated 10/4/02 3:48:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                  sarahdhhk@... writes:


                  > Unlike Howard, I tend to think the question of anatta is of relevance.
                  > Isn’t it only when there is an idea of ‘beings’ rather than a continuous
                  > succession of cittas, that these questions arise? Even in a dream-like or
                  > coma-like state, there is a succession of cittas and conditioned and
                  > conditioning rupas.
                  >
                  =============================
                  I agree with your last two sentences. My point was that conventional
                  existence in alleged intermediate realms is no more a matter of atta than is
                  conventional existence in a standard realm such as the human realm. As I
                  wrote: Even right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent
                  "existence", there really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing
                  things. Right now we are empty of essence, empty of self.

                  With metta,
                  Howard



                  /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                  in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                  phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Christine, I also have Buddhadatta s dict, small and handy to get around fast. On the first p. I write the letters in the Pali alphabetical order and then
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
                    Dear Christine,

                    I also have Buddhadatta's dict, small and handy to get around fast. On the
                    first p. I write the letters in the Pali alphabetical order and then the
                    page no. behind, for quick reference.
                    Self teaching is fine, your own pace. Warder lets you read already at about
                    Ch 18, makes it interesting.
                    Success,
                    Nina.
                    op 03-10-2002 13:44 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@...:

                    >
                    > I do have Warder (3rd Edition), de Silva, and Rhys David's and
                    > Stede's Pali-English dictionary. Perhaps I'll give it a try and work
                    > through de Silva's Lessons first, then go on to those by Horner. I
                    > hope I could be as diligent as you are, though I think languages
                    > require a certain talent as well. ( I hate to admit this, but I
                    > experience difficulty finding my way around the P-E Dictionary ...).
                    >
                  • Uan Chih Liu
                    Hi Howard, Christine, ... such ... the ... the ... Even ... there ... are ... I think I can empathize with Christine since we are both coming from Christianity
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
                      Hi Howard, Christine,

                      > Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept intermediate
                      > states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details, however,
                      > about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans consider
                      such
                      > states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49 days. I
                      > would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved - like
                      the
                      > "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral body of
                      the
                      > occultists.
                      > I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at all.
                      Even
                      > right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence",
                      there
                      > really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we
                      are
                      > empty of essence, empty of self.
                      >
                      I think I can empathize with Christine since we are both coming from
                      Christianity background. The talk of rebirth inevitably leads one to
                      interpret
                      that there is this eternal "soul" that is going through different states,
                      and different
                      realms of experience. Sure, there is no "you" and "I" as unitary,
                      continuing beings,
                      as it is composed of ever changing elements. However, if one were to
                      decompose
                      "being" to the finest granuity, can we eventually identify an element that
                      is so
                      small and yet so powerful that we identify as "soul" that is what bring
                      "beings"
                      to "life", the third "THING" for rebirth to occur, the recipient of panna,
                      the thing
                      that's clinging, accumulating? Sure, this elements changes, adds and
                      subtracts
                      continuously, but is there a underlying gem that is constant? Buddhism says
                      no,
                      I guess if you divide things infinitely, if you divide by infinity, you will
                      get zero,
                      emptiness.

                      WL
                    • upasaka@aol.com
                      Hi, WL - In a message dated 10/4/02 1:29:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... =============================== It s not just that. First of all, there is just a
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
                        Hi, WL -

                        In a message dated 10/4/02 1:29:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                        uanchihliu@... writes:


                        >
                        > Hi Howard, Christine,
                        >
                        > > Harvey's position is that original Buddhism did accept
                        > intermediate
                        > > states between realms of experience. He didn't go into details, however,
                        > > about how long such a state would last. I believe the Tibetans consider
                        > such
                        > > states to be much like dream states. They typically last up to 49 days. I
                        > > would assume that there is some sort of subtle embodiment involved - like
                        > the
                        > > "mind-made" body the Buddha refers to occasionally or the astral body of
                        > the
                        > > occultists.
                        > > I don't see that this business has any bearing on anatta at all.
                        > Even
                        > > right now, with our "solid" bodies and with our apparent "existence",
                        > there
                        > > really is no "you" and no "I" as unitary, continuing things. Right now we
                        > are
                        > > empty of essence, empty of self.
                        > >
                        > I think I can empathize with Christine since we are both coming from
                        > Christianity background. The talk of rebirth inevitably leads one to
                        > interpret
                        > that there is this eternal "soul" that is going through different states,
                        > and different
                        > realms of experience. Sure, there is no "you" and "I" as unitary,
                        > continuing beings,
                        > as it is composed of ever changing elements. However, if one were to
                        > decompose
                        > "being" to the finest granuity, can we eventually identify an element that
                        > is so
                        > small and yet so powerful that we identify as "soul" that is what bring
                        > "beings"
                        > to "life", the third "THING" for rebirth to occur, the recipient of panna,
                        > the thing
                        > that's clinging, accumulating? Sure, this elements changes, adds and
                        > subtracts
                        > continuously, but is there a underlying gem that is constant? Buddhism
                        > says
                        > no,
                        > I guess if you divide things infinitely, if you divide by infinity, you
                        > will
                        > get zero,
                        > emptiness.
                        >
                        > WL
                        >
                        >
                        ===============================
                        It's not just that. First of all, there is just a sequence of events,
                        not "things". Secondly, when you write <<Sure, there is no "you" and "I" as
                        unitary,
                        continuing beings, as it is composed of ever changing elements.>> I think you
                        miss the mark slightly. There are not ever-changing elements. Impermanence
                        doesn't mean that "things change". It means that things don't remain. An
                        event occurs, and then ceases. Later events arise conditioned by earlier
                        ones. That's all - empty phenomena rolling on.

                        With metta,
                        Howard

                        /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                        in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                        phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • LBIDD@webtv.net
                        Howard: Impermanence doesn t mean that things change . It means that things don t remain. An event occurs, and then ceases. Later events arise conditioned by
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
                          Howard: "Impermanence doesn't mean that "things change". It means that
                          things don't remain. An event occurs, and then ceases. Later events
                          arise conditioned by earlier ones. That's all - empty phenomena rolling
                          on."

                          L: Nice one Howard. Well said.

                          Larry
                        • Paul Ajahn
                          try this http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html ... Dear Christine, ... _________________________________________________________
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
                            try this
                            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html

                            --- Nina van Gorkom <nilo@...> 的郵件內容:>
                            Dear Christine,
                            >
                            > I also have Buddhadatta's dict, small and handy to
                            > get around fast. On the
                            > first p. I write the letters in the Pali
                            > alphabetical order and then the
                            > page no. behind, for quick reference.
                            > Self teaching is fine, your own pace. Warder lets
                            > you read already at about
                            > Ch 18, makes it interesting.
                            > Success,
                            > Nina.
                            > op 03-10-2002 13:44 schreef christine_forsyth op
                            > cforsyth@...:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > I do have Warder (3rd Edition), de Silva, and Rhys
                            > David's and
                            > > Stede's Pali-English dictionary. Perhaps I'll give
                            > it a try and work
                            > > through de Silva's Lessons first, then go on to
                            > those by Horner. I
                            > > hope I could be as diligent as you are, though I
                            > think languages
                            > > require a certain talent as well. ( I hate to
                            > admit this, but I
                            > > experience difficulty finding my way around the
                            > P-E Dictionary ...).
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >

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                          • christine_forsyth
                            Thanks Paul, looks like it could be useful. metta, Christine
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 4, 2002
                              Thanks Paul, looks like it could be useful.
                              metta,
                              Christine

                              --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Paul Ajahn <ajahn_paul@y...> wrote:
                              > try this
                              > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html
                              >
                              > --- Nina van Gorkom <nilo@e...> ªº¶l¥ó¤º®e¡G>
                              > Dear Christine,
                              > >
                              > > I also have Buddhadatta's dict, small and handy to
                              > > get around fast. On the
                              > > first p. I write the letters in the Pali
                              > > alphabetical order and then the
                              > > page no. behind, for quick reference.
                              > > Self teaching is fine, your own pace. Warder lets
                              > > you read already at about
                              > > Ch 18, makes it interesting.
                              > > Success,
                              > > Nina.
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