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Re: [dsg] Two very different statements

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  • upasaka@aol.com
    Hi, all - I just wrote the following reply to Christine. I wrote it before reading the post from Steve (Bodhi2500@aol.com) in which he provides the sutta
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 30, 2002
      Hi, all -

      I just wrote the following reply to Christine. I wrote it before
      reading the post from Steve (Bodhi2500@...) in which he provides the
      sutta "Samyutta Nikaya XII.48
      Lokayatika Sutta The Cosmologist". Had I read this first I wouldn't have
      bothered writing my post - the Buddha said it all, and, of course, much
      better! ;-))

      With metta,
      Howard



      In a message dated 9/30/02 10:57:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@...
      writes:


      >
      > Hi, Christine -
      >
      > In a message dated 9/30/02 5:30:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
      > cforsyth@... writes:
      >
      >
      > >
      > > Dear Group,
      > >
      > > I was intrigued by two statements that I read in the one evening.
      > > Perhaps they may stimulate reflection in others as well.
      > >
      > > "All things in the universe are one" (from a dhamma friend).
      > >
      > > "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon does not
      > > endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety." (from Bhikkhu
      > > Bodh.).
      > >
      > > metta,
      > > Christine
      > >
      > ==============================
      > Here's my arrogant answer: They are both wrong!
      > All dhammas *are* alike in being anatta, and they are
      > interdependent.
      > However, they are not "one". Nonduality is not unity, and a philosophy of
      > nonduality need not be monism. Unity is one extreme, and a multiplicity of
      > self-existing things is another, but the non-duality of dependent
      > origination
      > is the middle way. That's my take.
      >
      > With metta,
      > Howard
      >
      >


      /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
      in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
      phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • christine_forsyth
      Hi Steve, Thanks for the Sutta ... I don t think I d seen it before, though the paticcasamuppada is familiar. There certainly isn t anything new under the
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 1 1:31 AM
        Hi Steve,

        Thanks for the Sutta ... I don't think I'd seen it before, though the
        paticcasamuppada is familiar. There certainly isn't anything new
        under the sun. The study of Cosmology 2500 years ago? ... today it
        is a branch of astrophysics.

        metta,
        Christine

        --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Bodhi2500@a... wrote:
        > Hi Christine
        > Here is a nice little Sutta on "oneness".
        > Samyutta Nikaya XII.48
        > Lokayatika Sutta
        > The Cosmologist
        >
        > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
        > For free distribution only.
        >
        > Staying at Savatthi. Then a brahman cosmologist went to the
        Blessed One and,
        > on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an
        exchange of
        > friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was
        sitting there,
        > he said to the Blessed One, "Now, then, Master Gotama, does
        everything
        > exist?" "'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology,
        brahman."
        > "Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?" "'Everything does
        not
        > exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is
        everything a
        > Oneness?" "'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of
        cosmology,
        > brahman." "Then is everything a Manyness?" "'Everything is a
        Manyness' is the
        > fourth form of cosmology, brahman. Avoiding these two extremes, the
        Tathagata
        > teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite
        condition
        > come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes
        > consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes
        name-&-form.
        > From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
        From the
        > six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From
        contact as a
        > requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite
        condition
        > comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes
        > clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite
        condition comes
        > becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From
        birth as a
        > requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain,
        distress,
        > & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire
        mass of
        > stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation
        of that
        > very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the
        cessation of
        > fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the
        cessation of
        > consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the
        cessation of name-&
        > -form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the
        cessation of the
        > six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation
        of contact
        > comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes
        the
        > cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the
        cessation of
        > clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance
        comes the
        > cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the
        cessation of
        > birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow,
        lamentation,
        > pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this
        entire
        > mass of stress & suffering." "Magnificent, Master Gotama!
        Magnificent! Just
        > as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what
        was
        > hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp
        into the dark
        > so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master
        Gotama --
        > through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to
        Master
        > Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May
        Master
        > Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for
        refuge, from
        > this day forward, for life."
        >
        > ****************
        >
        > Take Care
        > Steve
      • christine_forsyth
        Hi Howard, I like your take! Concise, no-frills and understandable. Thanks. metta, Christine ... interdependent. ... philosophy of ... multiplicity of ...
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 1 1:33 AM
          Hi Howard,

          I like your take! Concise, no-frills and understandable. Thanks.

          metta,
          Christine

          --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote:
          > Hi, Christine -
          > Here's my arrogant answer: They are both wrong!
          > All dhammas *are* alike in being anatta, and they are
          interdependent.
          > However, they are not "one". Nonduality is not unity, and a
          philosophy of
          > nonduality need not be monism. Unity is one extreme, and a
          multiplicity of
          > self-existing things is another, but the non-duality of dependent
          origination
          > is the middle way. That's my take.
          >
          > With metta,
          > Howard
          >
          > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn,
          a bubble
          > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering
          lamp, a
          > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond
          Sutra)
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