Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

cause & result

Expand Messages
  • LBIDD@webtv.net
    Dear group, there is a parallel relationship between citta process and paticcasamuppada: they are both divided into cause and result. In ps avijja (ignorance)
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 27, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear group, there is a parallel relationship between citta process and
      paticcasamuppada: they are both divided into cause and result. In ps
      avijja (ignorance) and sankhara (kama-formation) are causal; vinnana
      (consciousness), namarupa (mind and matter), ayatana (sense bases),
      phassa (impression), and vedana (feeling) are resultant; tanha
      (craving), upadana (clinging), and bhava (becoming) are causal; jati
      (rebirth), and jara-marana (old age and death) are resultant.

      In the citta process adverting consciousness, sense consciousness,
      receiving consciousness, and investigating consciousness are resultant,
      the others (I think?) are causal.

      Comparing these two lists, and Sarah's assertion that rupa in 5 door
      process is neither kamma cause nor kamma result, has led me to think
      that what is actually resultant in vipaka sense consciousess is the
      cetasikas.

      Suppose sometime in the past I was frightened by the sky. In the present
      I see the color blue; along with this sense consciousness a dosa
      cetasika arises as a result (vipaka) of the previous experience. This
      time, however, I cognize (in javana series?) this citta with dosa as
      merely kamma vipaka and 'not me'. In the future, when I see the sky
      again, the consciousness of the sky will arise (perhaps) with the
      cetasika 'this is kamma vipaka and not me'. This citta vipaka will,
      probably, then be again cognized (in javana?) as 'this is kamma vipaka
      and not me'. So the history of this exerience runs: sky consciousness
      (resultant) > fear (causal) > fear (resultant) > insight (causal) >
      insight (resultant) > insight (causal)...

      Causal consciousness following and reacting to resultant consciousness
      often, but not always, reinforces or copies the resultant, thereby
      causing the same future resultant consciousness when a similar object
      arises.

      Is this correct? Also, if someone could fill in some of these gaps, that
      would be appreciated.

      thanks, Larry
      ps: I made a mistake yesterday ascribing patisandhi citta to bhava
      nidana. I don't know where I got that but it probably should only be
      assigned to vinnana nidana.
    • Sarah
      Dear Larry, You suggest that ‘what is actually resultant in vipaka sense consciousness is the cetasikas’. To clarify, it is certain cittas, such as the
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 28, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Larry,

        You suggest that ‘what is actually resultant in vipaka sense consciousness
        is the cetasikas’. To clarify, it is certain cittas, such as the sense
        door consciousness (seeing, hearing etc) and a few others that are vipaka
        cittas. Only the cetasikas which accompany these vipaka cittas are vipaka
        too.

        Therefore, cetasikas which only arise in javana processes (and not with
        these vipaka cittas), such as lobha or dosa (given in your example), are
        never vipaka or result. The way that cause and result is used when we are
        referring to kamma and vipaka is rather different from the way it is used
        in dependent origination (as I think Nina may have mentioned).

        > Causal consciousness following and reacting to resultant consciousness
        > often, but not always, reinforces or copies the resultant, thereby
        > causing the same future resultant consciousness when a similar object
        > arises.
        >
        > Is this correct? Also, if someone could fill in some of these gaps, that
        > would be appreciated.

        Let me put it this way: If dosa tends to arise on account of particular
        experiences (resultants or vipaka), then each time it arises, it will
        accumulate and be that much more likely to arise in future. It becomes
        ‘habit’. Furthermore, if it is strong enough to condition akusala kamma
        pattha through body, speech or mind, then the kamma (cetana cetasika) will
        cause a result (vipaka) in the future (depending on further conditions).

        With regard to paticca samuppada, we learn about the cycle of existence.
        If ignorance were eradicated, there would be no conditions for new kamma.
        Therefore, there would be no further vipaka (after the end of the current
        life), no sense door experience, contact, feeling, craving and so on as a
        result.

        So we learn the importance of developing understanding, which gradually
        eliminates ignorance. Understanding the nature of seeing or hearing
        consciousness as resultant consciousness (vipaka) and distinct from lobha
        or dosa which arise on account of these brief experiences, is an example
        of the development or bhavana that is essential in this task.

        I hope I haven’t confused you more or over-simplified. I appreciate all
        your helpful questions and study. (I’m always very glad to see Nina’s and
        Goglerr’s responses too).

        Sarah

        p.s. when I have time, I’ll try to find a reference or link for you on the
        causes (kamma, citta, temperature, nutriment) of different kinds of rupa
        which are never referred to as vipaka. I don’t want you left with the idea
        that it’s just what I say or think;-)
        =====================================================


        _______________________________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
      • LBIDD@webtv.net
        Hi Satah, are you saying that resultant consciousness does not arise with lobha or dosa? Larry
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 28, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Satah, are you saying that resultant consciousness does not arise
          with lobha or dosa?

          Larry
        • LBIDD@webtv.net
          Sarah, sorry for the typo. I assure you I don t think you are Satan. Too hasty. Larry ... not arise with lobha or dosa? Larry
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 28, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Sarah, sorry for the typo. I assure you I don't think you are Satan. Too
            hasty.

            Larry
            ------------
            >Larry wrote: Hi Satah, are you saying that resultant consciousness does
            not arise with lobha or dosa?
            Larry
          • Sarah
            Hi Larry, Sorry for the delay.....I’ve been trying to avoid the computer over the last few days because of a rt wrist injury....(slowly using the mouse with
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 2, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Larry,

              Sorry for the delay.....I’ve been trying to avoid the computer over the
              last few days because of a rt wrist injury....(slowly using the mouse with
              the left hand now).

              You asked about whether ‘resultant consciousness does not arise with lobha
              or dosa?’

              I think the latest extract from ADL on javana cittas will have already
              confirmed for you that lobha or dosa only arise with akusala cittas
              (unwholesome consciousness) in the javana process which are quite distinct
              from the vipaka (resultant) or kiriya (inoperative, i.e neither cause nor
              result) cittas. After you’ve digested the segment (or at the end of the
              chapter), let me know if this still isn’t clear.

              As we’re interested in the applicability of abhidhamma in daily life, I
              think it’s important to consider the relevance of this to the development
              of satipatthana. If there is the (wrong) idea that lobha or dosa
              (attachment or aversion) are just the results of kamma, or that they arise
              with seeing or hearing automatically, I don’t believe there will be any
              conditions to understand the sense door experiencing such as seeing,
              hearing and so on, for what it is -- i.e. just a brief moment of
              experiencing an object with indifferent feeling, resulting from previous
              kamma and other conditions and quite distinct from all the stories and
              ‘emotions’ which arise on account of what is seen or heard.

              In the same way, if we have the idea of lobha and dosa as result-- rather
              than arising with kusala and akusala cittas later in the process -- it
              gives fuel to the ‘fatalistic’ idea that everything is pre-determined from
              previous lives and therefore inevitable. Understanding about
              accumulations, on the other hand -- and about kusala and akusala cittas in
              particular -- still doesn’t mean there is any self that controls or
              determines outcomes, but it shows how different conditions operate. It
              shows how the ‘reactions’ -- or rather the noble or ignoble qualities --
              arise with the javana cittas following the vipaka cittas of seeing
              consciousness and so on.

              This sounds rather garbled, so I hope I haven't confused anyone further;-)
              .....
              I’m just looking at a couple of your other posts and questions briefly.
              You just wrote to Ranil about phassa and explained that it arises with
              every citta. If there were no ‘contact’ between consciousness and its
              object (whether a nama or rupa), would there be any experiencing of the
              object? Would there be any attachment or grasping arising on account of
              the object and so on...... So we see the importance of conditions and all
              the various ‘parts’ coming together, for consciousness to occur

              Nina recently quoted from Vis. XXII, 72:

              “No store of broken states, no future stock;
              Those born balance like seeds on needle points.
              Break-up of states is foredoomed at their birth;
              Those present decay, unmingled with those past.
              They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go;
              Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky.”

              *****
              I hope this helps explain a little about phassa (contact) as a universal
              cetasika (mental factor) and as an essential factor in dependent
              origination. Rob K may add more details or you may like to review his
              series on d.o. in Useful Posts.

              Finally, you also asked (and answered;-))some Qs about javana cittas and
              votthapana cittas. In brief, because I’m sure we’ll soon be reading more
              detail in the extracts, it is the cetana (intention) in particular,
              arising in the javana processes with the lobha, dosa and other mental
              factors which causes the vipaka cittas.

              As you also suggest, lobha or dosa arising .with the javana citta now will
              ‘accumulate’ a little bit more and make it just that little bit easier for
              lobha or dosa to arise again in another javana process by way of many
              different conditions.

              Thank you for your helpful extracts from Vism on accumulations;

              “XIV 131: [on the formations (sankhara) aggregate] what is said to have
              the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of
              agglomerating.
              n. 57: "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of
              adding together (sampindana); then they are said to have the function of
              accumulating; for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so
              described because volition is their basis. (Pm. 484)”
              *****

              Many thanks, Larry. always good talking to you and I don’t mind how I’m
              addressed;-)

              Sarah
              =====

              --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Satah, are you saying that resultant
              consciousness does not arise
              > with lobha or dosa?


              _______________________________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
            • LBIDD@webtv.net
              Hi Sarah, I m still puzzled and confused about vipaka cittas. Of the different kinds or functions of vipaka cittas, sense consciousness seems to be the only
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 2, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Sarah, I'm still puzzled and confused about vipaka cittas. Of the
                different kinds or functions of vipaka cittas, sense consciousness seems
                to be the only one that we really notice. And if sense consciousness is
                merely sense consciousness, that seems like a meager, wimpy kamma
                result. If we have an akusala intention and the only result is sense
                consciousness, what kind of a deal is that??? Where's the justice? the
                retribution? the dukkha? the learning? Are there other kamma results of
                javana cittas beside vipaka cittas?

                What happened to your wrist? Is it kamma vipaka?

                Larry
              • upasaka@aol.com
                Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/2/02 7:28:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@webtv.net ... ========================== If I may butt in with my phenomenalist
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 2, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi, Larry -

                  In a message dated 7/2/02 7:28:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@...
                  writes:


                  >
                  > Hi Sarah, I'm still puzzled and confused about vipaka cittas. Of the
                  > different kinds or functions of vipaka cittas, sense consciousness seems
                  > to be the only one that we really notice. And if sense consciousness is
                  > merely sense consciousness, that seems like a meager, wimpy kamma
                  > result. If we have an akusala intention and the only result is sense
                  > consciousness, what kind of a deal is that??? Where's the justice? the
                  > retribution? the dukkha? the learning? Are there other kamma results of
                  > javana cittas beside vipaka cittas?
                  >
                  > What happened to your wrist? Is it kamma vipaka?
                  >
                  > Larry
                  >
                  >
                  ==========================
                  If I may butt in with my phenomenalist perspective: What happened to
                  her wrist is all sense consciousness. What is relevant is what Sarah
                  experiences, not some supposed external, objective event/existence
                  independent of experience.
                  The realm of experience we are in and the details of our experience
                  are all either kamma vipaka or the result of actions of others sharing the
                  same realm of experience. Utimately, all our experience flows out of the
                  volitional actions of ourself and of others. That's how I see it.

                  With metta,
                  Howard

                  /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                  in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                  phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • LBIDD@webtv.net
                  Hi Howard, I think the problem is that, according to the book (Sarah), there are no inherently undesired results to akusala javana. Maybe there are, however,
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 2, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Howard, I think the problem is that, according to the book (Sarah),
                    there are no inherently undesired results to akusala javana. Maybe there
                    are, however, unpleasant results. I've been reviewing Visuddhimagga and
                    couldn't find anything such as 'this javana citta will produce this
                    vipaka citta'. Sense consciousness just seems like an odd result to me.

                    I wouldn't say that everything is kamma cause or kamma result. Kamma is
                    pretty much an ethical, value based causal mechanism. Even though we can
                    evaluate anything, that doesn't mean that that thing's existence depends
                    on value. Plus there are 23 other conditional relations. On the other
                    hand, kamma is intimately associated with sankhara and everything *is*
                    sankhata.

                    I don't think sakhara is quite the same as phenomenalism. It doesn't
                    make sense to me to say all there is is experience. For one thing, its
                    logic leads in the direction of making consciousness a kind of ultimate
                    medium. If we have to have an ultimate medium, I would favor
                    materiality. Abhidhamma is definitely dualistic, nama and rupa. Even
                    psychologically it's dualistic: consciousness and object of
                    consciousness.

                    To translate the idea "supposed external, objective event/existence
                    independent of experience" into paramattha dhamma lingo would suggest
                    there is nothing outside the bhavanga 'stream'. If there were nothing
                    outside it, nothing could interrupt it.

                    I can see about a million flaws with my logic, but I'll leave it at
                    that.

                    back to you,
                    Larry
                  • Sarah
                    Hi Larry & All, ... ..... Good questions. I don’t pretend to know any of the answers. I’ll just try to share a little more that I find helpful and also try
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 4, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Larry & All,

                      LBIDD@... wrote:
                      > Hi Sarah, I'm still puzzled and confused about vipaka cittas. Of the
                      > different kinds or functions of vipaka cittas, sense consciousness seems
                      > to be the only one that we really notice. And if sense consciousness is
                      > merely sense consciousness, that seems like a meager, wimpy kamma
                      > result. If we have an akusala intention and the only result is sense
                      > consciousness, what kind of a deal is that??? Where's the justice? the
                      > retribution? the dukkha? the learning? Are there other kamma results of
                      > javana cittas beside vipaka cittas?
                      >
                      > What happened to your wrist? Is it kamma vipaka?
                      .....

                      Good questions. I don’t pretend to know any of the answers. I’ll just try
                      to share a little more that I find helpful and also try to use the wrist
                      sprain example for a little abhidhamma revision..hmm..

                      First of all, rupas in the body are also conditioned by kamma and I agree
                      that sesnse consciousness is the most obvious of the vipaka cittas. If
                      there was no seeing or hearing for even a few minutes, you might not think
                      of these as ‘meager and wimpy’ results. Also, I think that by failing to
                      be aware of them and of the clinging to the objects seen and heard, we
                      fail to appreciate and learn about the inherent dukkha in all moments of
                      consciousness including these.

                      From Nina’s ‘Conditions’,
                      http://www.zolag.co.uk/
                      we read:

                      “Kamma is actually cetanå cetasika, volition. Cetanå arises with each
                      citta and it can therefore be kusala, akusala, vipåka or kiriya. Cetanå
                      directs the associated dhammas and coordinates their tasks (Atthasåliní,
                      Book I, Part IV, Ch I, 111). Cetanå which accompanies kusala citta and
                      akusala citta has a double function: it directs the tasks of the
                      associated dhammas and it has the function of "willing" or activity in
                      good and bad deeds. In this last function it is capable to produce the
                      results of good and bad deeds later on.......

                      The cetanå, volition or intention, which motivates a good or bad deed
                      falls away, but since each citta conditions the next one in the cycle of
                      birth and death, the force of cetanå is accumulated from moment to moment
                      so that it can produce result later on. It conditions the result in the
                      form of vipåkacitta and specific rúpas of the body by way of
                      asynchronous kamma-condition.” <end quote>
                      *****
                      In ‘Guide to Conditional Relations’,by U Narada (PTS) I’m reading that
                      there are 33 volitions associated with ‘faultless and faulty
                      consciousnesses’ and with these its function is ‘to leave behind a force,
                      like the seed or germ, which will produce resultant mental aggregates and
                      kamma-produced matter in the future. We read that this force is present
                      like the latent tendencies.

                      “And just as the latter are not concepts, so also this special force of
                      asynchronous kamma condition is not a concept. It is a special force of
                      the ultimate realities.” It gives the example of someone who borrows
                      money. The act is completed as soon as the money is borrowed, but their
                      remains a debt to be repaid, either in instalments or in a lump sum. Only
                      when it has been fully repaid is the responsibility removed. Kamma works
                      in a similar way and as we know there are many other conditions and
                      factors at work determining when and how the debt is paid.
                      .....
                      Both Nina’s ‘Conditions’ and Nyantiloka’s Buddhist dictionary (under
                      ‘karma’):
                      http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html
                      give very helpful summaries and details about the ripening of kamma,
                      different kinds of kamma and so on. These have also been discussed on DSG
                      and you may like to look at the Useful Posts under ‘kamma and vipaka’
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links
                      .....
                      I think you mentioned in another post that you hadn’t seen reference to
                      the sense cittas (consciousness) resulting from kamma (cetana arising with
                      kusala or akusala cittas in the javana process) in the texts. I’ve just
                      pulled out the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion, PTS). The
                      abhidhamma texts and commentaries, like this one, go into a lot of precise
                      detail, but let me just quote a very little (p.184):

                      “In the description of the clause “with formations as condition
                      consciousness”, as regards cakkhuvinnanam (“eye-consciousness”) and so on,
                      eye-consciousness is twofold, namely, profitable resultant and
                      unprofitable resultant. Likewise ear-........

                      'Here it may be (asked) ‘But how is it to be known that this consciousness
                      of the kind stated has formations as its condition?” Because there is no
                      kamma-result when there is no stored-up kamma. For this (consciousness) is
                      a kamma-result and kamma-result does not arise in the absence of stored-up
                      kamma. If it did, then all kinds of kamma-resultant would arise for all
                      (kinds of beings); and they do not (so) arise. Thus should it be known
                      that this consciousness has formations as its conditions.” <end quote>
                      *****

                      It then adds details of exactly which cittas are kusala vipaka and which
                      are akusala vipaka. Later in the text (p.235) there is an interesting
                      passage about accumulations, formations, kamma and the details of the
                      javana process. (I’ll quote it another time perhaps, as I’m already
                      pushing my luck with the wrist).

                      Talking of the sprained wrist, let’s see if I can use it for a little
                      revision:

                      Through the body sense consciousness (kusala or akusala vipaka citta,
                      result of kusala or akusala kamma), only temperature (i.e heat or cold),
                      solidity (i.e hardness or softness) and wind (i.e. motion or pressure) are
                      experienced. When the rupa contacts the body-sense (anywhere on the body),
                      the body feeling is either painful or pleasant (no indifferent bodily
                      feeling if you remember). So when it is painful or unpleasant, the citta
                      and accompanying cetasikas are akusala vipaka.

                      These feelings are different from the mental pleasant and unpleasant
                      feelings accompanying lobha and dosa (in the javana process), but usually
                      there is no sati and no distinguishing the dosa and its accompanying
                      unpleasant feeling from the bodily feelings.

                      An arahant still experiences bodily unpleasant feelings, but not the
                      unpleasant mental feelings, although they are both namas. Earlier in ADL
                      we read the passage about the splinter and how the Buddha felt the acute
                      pain in the body but was not perturbed:

                      “...Now at that time his foot was injured by a splinter. Sorely indeed
                      did the Exalted One feel it, grievous the pains he suffered in the body,
                      keen and sharp, acute, distressing and unwelcome. He truly bore them,
                      mindful and deliberate, nor was he cast down...” (SN, 1, Sagatha-vagga,
                      11, The splinter)
                      *****

                      Anyway, in my case, there have been some painful bodily feelings (result
                      of kamma) from time to time, conditioned by the experience of various
                      rupas. Often these experiences are a condition for dosa with unpleasant
                      feeling, but not to a degree to commit any harsh speech or action. More
                      noticable at times, however, is the thinking, the proliferations and
                      stories about how it happened, remedies and so on.

                      In other words, so often there is one brief moment of unpleasant bodily
                      experience, followed by many moments of aversion and story-building on its
                      account. Occasionally there may be awareness of the feeling or the rupa or
                      the thinking and then there is no story.
                      .....
                      Nina writes in ‘Conditions’:
                      “ Throughout life kamma produces vipåkacittas arising in processes of
                      cittas which experience pleasant or unpleasant objects. Seeing, for
                      example, is vipåkacitta which experiences a pleasant or unpleasant visible
                      object through the eyesense. It merely sees, it does not know whether the
                      object is pleasant or unpleasant. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas
                      condition one another by way of vipåka-condition, they assist one another
                      in "effortless quiet". The succeeding receiving-consciousness,
                      sampaìicchana-citta , is also vipåkacitta, and this is succeeded by
                      another vipåkacitta, the investigating-consciousness, santíraùa-citta.
                      This is succeeded by the determining-consciousness, the votthapana-citta,
                      which is a kiriyacitta. After that the javana-cittas arise which are, in
                      the case of non-arahats, kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When the object
                      is pleasant, lobha-múla-cittas are likely to arise and when the object is
                      unpleasant, dosa-múla-cittas are likely to arise. There are seven
                      javana-cittas arising, succeeding one another. Cittas arise and fall away
                      succeeding one another very rapidly and when paññå has not been developed
                      we do not realize when there is vipåkacitta and when there is kusala citta
                      or akusala citta. When we have an unpleasant experience such as an
                      accident we keep on thinking of the concept of a situation or of an event
                      we consider as "our vipåka" and we may wonder why this had to happen to
                      us. We tend to forget that vipåkacitta is only one moment which falls away
                      immediately....”
                      *****
                      You ask about the justice. We have no idea which kamma will produce a
                      result at which time, It depends on many factors and conditions. Only the
                      Buddhas have full knowledge of the 'succession of kamma and its result
                      in the twelve classes of kamma' and this 'knowledge is not shared by his
                      disciples'. (Vism XIX, 17).

                      In the Atthasalini (The Expositor PTS) p.88, we read a lot of detail about
                      the diversity of the mind and its effects:

                      “..beings have kamma as their property, they are its heirs, are originated
                      by it, are its kin, are sheltered by it. Kamma divides beings into low
                      and exalted. By this capacity to produce a diversity of effects (in
                      destiny) in a manner detailed above is the diversity of the mind to be
                      understood. For all variations are done by the mind only.”
                      *****

                      It’s not necessary to know the details but when the vipassana nana which
                      clearly understands kamma and result is realized, there is no more doubt
                      aboutkamma and vipaka or about whether any self is involved:

                      “there is no doer of a deed
                      Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
                      .......
                      ‘there is no kamma in result
                      Nor does result exist in kamma;
                      Though they are void of one another,
                      There is no fruit without the kamma.
                      ......
                      Phenomena alone flow on -
                      Cause and componednt their condition” (Vism XIX,20)
                      *****

                      Larry, I don’t feel qualified to really say much on this subject, but I’ve
                      had fun pulling out all these texts and my wrist is doing better with the
                      mouse out of its reach and with all these opportunities for wise
                      reflection;-)

                      Sarah
                      =======



                      _______________________________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                    • LBIDD@webtv.net
                      Hi Sarah, thanks for all this great research. I didn t mean to put you to so much trouble. I have a couple of comments on two of your sources. S: In Guide to
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 4, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Sarah, thanks for all this great research. I didn't mean to put you
                        to so much trouble. I have a couple of comments on two of your sources.

                        S: In 'Guide to Conditional Relations',by U Narada (PTS) I'm reading
                        that there are 33 volitions associated with 'faultless and faulty
                        consciousnesses' and with these its function is 'to leave behind a
                        force, like the seed or germ, which will produce resultant mental
                        aggregates and kamma-produced matter in the future. We read that this
                        force is present like the latent tendencies.

                        L: By 'resultant mental aggregates' I take it Ven. U Narada means
                        vipaka cittas. Correct?

                        S: "In the description of the clause "with formations as condition
                        consciousness", as regards cakkhuvinnanam ("eye-consciousness") and so
                        on, eye-consciousness is twofold, namely, profitable resultant and
                        unprofitable resultant. Likewise ear-........

                        L: I think there must be some confusion here. "With formations as
                        condition, consciousness" refers to rebirth consciousness (patisandhi).
                        Eye consciousness doesn't arise until after ayatana nidana. I think it's
                        more or less assumed in phassa (contact) nidana.

                        I guess it's kind of fruitless to try to reason this process out in
                        detail since it can only be superficially known. What should we be doing
                        with citta process as a study or practice topic?

                        Its ok with me if you wait awhile to respond. It hurts my wrist to read
                        your posts.

                        best wishes, Larry
                      • Sarah
                        Hi Larry, Let’s see if I can be kind to both our wrists this time;-) Let me just say that you didn tput me to any trouble....it was a pleasure and was
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 5, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Larry,

                          Let’s see if I can be kind to both our wrists this time;-)

                          Let me just say that you didn'tput me to any trouble....it was a pleasure
                          and was written for others too.

                          A few ‘clear-up’ comments if I may:

                          1.’Resultant mental aggregates’ referred to by U Narada would refer to
                          vipaka cittas and associated cetasikas.

                          2.With regard to the quote I gave from the Sammohavinodani regarding
                          eye-consciousness and the other vipaka cittas, it is referring to
                          resulting vipakas at birth and throughout life (as in the case of sense
                          consciousness). Let me add another short quote:

                          “Firstly, in one who is reborn by means of either profitable result or
                          unprofitable result, according as his faculties mature, (so) the five
                          profitable resultant eye (etc) consciousnesses occur, accomplishing the
                          functions of seeing, hearing (etc), on being instigated (respectively) by
                          a desirable or undesirable-neutral visible datum etc as objects come into
                          focus of the eye etc, and having eye-sensitivity as their (material)
                          support. Likewise the five unpfofitable resultant......”

                          3.By understanding a little more theory and carefully considering it as
                          you do, it can be a condition for understanding to develop. I was just
                          discussing with Howard about rupas and vedana and so on. If they are all
                          mixed together (not the language issue), it’s very difficult for namas and
                          rupas to be known. Concepts will be taken for realities and an idea of
                          self is bound to be involved, i think.

                          4. Thinking is never vipaka. We may be referring to specific cetasikas
                          (Vitakka and vicara), to a combination of factors or to the cittas
                          involved. Maybe we can come back to this;-)

                          5. I found your CMA quote very helpful. Some of your conclusions weren’t
                          quite right as I read them. Vipaka cittas are not result in name only. It
                          is as a result of kamma that the citta experiences the desirable or
                          undesirable object and thus it is kusala or akusala vipaka at that time.
                          Dosa and sannavipallasa will arise in the following javana process. I
                          hope my other post to H. on vedana (feeling)may have helped a little.
                          Vedana is a universal cetasika, like sanna, arising with every citta.
                          *****
                          I’m trying hard to be kind to our wrists and get ready for my tai chi
                          class at the same time. Let me know if anything still isn’t clear or if
                          I’ve made any mistakes.

                          Sarah
                          =====


                          _______________________________________________________________________
                          Do You Yahoo!?
                          Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.