Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Pointing us to treasure

Expand Messages
  • christine_forsyth
    Dear All, Recently in a discussion with a dhamma friend, something was mentioned that seemed a little different to how I d previously regarded relations with
    Message 1 of 23 , May 31, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear All,

      Recently in a discussion with a dhamma friend, something was
      mentioned that seemed a little different to how I'd previously
      regarded relations with others, and which I'm still thinking over.
      The friend said that if another person points out our (true)
      faults, "regardless of this other person's intentions", we should see
      it as someone pointing us to treasure.
      As well, the friend quoted a passage from Majjhima Nikaya 140, Dhatu-
      vibhabga Sutta, "An Analysis of the Properties"
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn140.html
      "Yes, monk, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish,
      so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to assume that it was proper to
      address me as 'friend.' But because you see your transgression as
      such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your
      confession. For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & discipline of
      the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends
      in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future."

      Mostly, in ordinary everyday life, criticising others or being
      criticised is seen as impolite. So, I guess this is a hard thing for
      me - seeing criticism as something not just to consider, but as
      something to be glad of, as if I had been told the whereabouts of
      treasure. The 'normal' reaction I usually have, and which I see in
      many others, is to become defensive, experience unwholesome emotions,
      and, perhaps, suspect the motives of the other. Usually, I initially
      see most criticism as incorrect ('who me? Couldn't be!') before after
      some time passes, being able to assess it fairly. Given this
      propensity, to see oneself as right and good, how do we know
      our 'true' faults? The phrase "regardless of this other person's
      intentions" is difficult. The other person could really be making
      untrue statements out of misunderstanding or maliciousness...hard to
      control an emotional reaction if it is believed the other knows the
      statements are untrue.

      I know this could be viewed as a trivial thing, and yet, for some of
      us, emotions are the strings that make the puppet dance.......

      metta,
      Christine
    • Sarah
      Dear Christine & All, ... ***** I’m no expert when it comes to the graceful acceptance of criticism (quite the contrary), but I have been reflecting a little
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 2, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Christine & All,

        --- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@...> wrote: > Dear All,
        >
        > Recently in a discussion with a dhamma friend, something was
        > mentioned that seemed a little different to how I'd previously
        > regarded relations with others, and which I'm still thinking over.
        > The friend said that if another person points out our (true)
        > faults, "regardless of this other person's intentions", we should see
        > it as someone pointing us to treasure.
        *****

        I’m no expert when it comes to the graceful acceptance of criticism (quite
        the contrary), but I have been reflecting a little over the weekend and
        I’d like to offer a few comments about aspects I find helpful in this
        regard. I also learn a lot from my students in this regard -- some can
        really hear and appreciate criticism which tends to encourage the teacher
        to help more (and with more goodwill, I find). For others, their
        inclination is to react and argue which tends to discourage assistance and
        goodwill.

        I think that usually, the problem with hearing adverse comments or
        criticism -- and surely the reason we find it easier to pounce on our
        perception of the speaker’s unwholesomeness-- is mana (conceit) and
        clinging to self again. As we know conceit ‘has haughtiness as
        characteristic, self-praise as function, desire to (advertise self like) a
        banner as manifestation....’. When we hear the adverse comments, the
        banner can be so apparent, I find.

        We’ve discussed before the list of objects on account of which mana arises
        from the Vibhanga (17) and these include “...pride of gain; pride of
        being honoured; pride of being respected; pride of prominence; pride of
        having adherents; pride of wealth; pride of appearance; pride of
        intelligence; pride of being a knowledgeable authority;...”.

        We also know that because of the attachment to self and finding oneself so
        important, we cling to the 8 worldly conditions and very seldom see the
        value of being a ‘nobody’ or a dust-rag as Sariputta did. On one of our
        trips to India, K.Sujin talked a lot about the value of reflecting in this
        very way. When I first heard it, again the banner would start waving and I
        was aware of how much discomfort there was at considering the value of
        being a door-mat that anyone could criticise or trample over. Gradually,
        I’ve come to appreciate these reminders more and more and to see what
        precious ‘treasure’ they are.

        The following are two passages that Nina wrote in letters about K.Sujin’s
        example of the dustrag on that trip:
        *****
        1.http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv9.html
        “Khun Sujin had reminded us in India to become like a dustrag which serves
        for wiping the feet. A dustrag takes up filth and is undisturbed by it.
        One should become as humble as a dustrag. Sariputta, who could forgive
        anybody, no matter whether that person treated him in an unjust manner,
        compared himself with a dustrag. He had no conceit. When right
        understanding has been developed one will cling less to the self, there
        will be more humbleness. During the discussions Khun Sujin said again:

        I would like to be a dustrag. I follow the way to be one, it is my
        resolution. Our resolution means that we take action by developing
        understanding and metta. .

        It is beneficial to be reminded again of the dustrag, because humbleness
        seems to go against our nature. As understanding develops it must lead to
        letting go of namas and rupas. What we take for self are only impermanent
        namas and rupas. When their impermanence has been realized can they be as
        important as before? '

        We read in the "Vinaya" (VI, Parivara, Ch XII) how the monk should behave
        when he approaches the Sangha when it is convened for the investigation of
        a legal question. We read:

        ...he should approach the Order with a humble mind, with a mind as though
        it were removing dust. He should be skilled about seats and skilled about
        sitting down. He should sit down on a suitable seat without encroaching on
        (the space intended for) monks who are Elders and without keeping newly
        ordained monks from a seat. He should not talk in a desultory fashion, nor
        about inferior (worldly) matters. Either he should speak Dhamma himself or
        should ask another to do so, or he should not disdain the ariyan
        silence...
        The commentary (the Samantapasadika) adds to "with a mind as though it
        were removing dust" : "like a towel for wiping the feet."
        *****
        2.http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv6.html
        “There is conceit if we have an idea that we should be "somebody with
        great wisdom". We should follow Sariputta's example who compared himself
        with a dustrag, a useless rag without any value. If we do not consider
        ourselves "somebody", but rather a "nobody", it will prevent us from
        pretending, even to ourselves, that we are more advanced than we in
        reality are. We also need the perfection of truthfulness (sacca) to keep
        us on the right track. We have to be sincere, truthful to reality. Do we
        want to avoid being aware of akusala? We have to be aware of it in order
        to know our true accumulations. If we are not aware of akusala we will
        take what is akusala for kusala. We need to develop the perfection of
        equanimity in order to learn to accept with kusala citta the vicissitudes
        of life. Praise and blame are only realities which arise because of their
        own conditions, in reality people are not the cause of praise or blame.
        When people do wrong to us we can develop metta if we see the value of
        metta. Instead of having aversion about people's bad points we will try to
        remember their good qualities. If they have none there can be compassion
        or there can be equanimity. There can be equanimity when we remember that
        the real cause of unpleasant experiences through the senses is not a
        person but our own kamma. We should carefully consider the different
        perfections and then we will be reminded to develop them in our daily
        life, they are needed in each situation. Khun Sujin said that while she
        prepares lectures for the radio she needs many perfections, such as metta,
        patience, energy and equanimity. When there is equanimity she does not
        feel hurt when people do not want to listen to her or when they criticize
        her." <en quotes>
        *****

        When we listen to and consider the teachings, as we read in the Simile of
        the Snake, they should be ‘grasped’ in a way which leads to less mana and
        clinging to self importance rather than the reverse.

        I know this is getting rather long, but at risk of over-testing
        everyone’s patience, I’d like to requote two paragraphs from ADL (ch 5)
        which Larry wisely repeated in a post to Dai Wen as an offering of
        assistance for the difficult office situation, emphasising the value of
        understanding phenomena as namas and rupas, not self:
        --------------------
        "All degrees of lobha, be it coarse or more subtle, bring sorrow. We are
        like slaves as long as we are absorbed in and infatuated by the objects
        which present themselves through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body-sense
        and mind. We are not free if our happiness depends on the situation we
        are in, and the way others behave towards us. One moment people may be
        kind to us, but the next moment they may be unpleasant. If we attach too
        much importance to the affection of other, we shall be easily disturbed
        in mind, and thus become slaves of our moods and emotions.

        We can become more independent and free if we realize that both we
        ourselves and other people are only nama and rupa, phenomena arising
        because of conditions and falling away again. When others say unpleasant
        things to us there are conditions which cause them to speak in that way,
        and there are conditions which cause us to hear such words. Other
        people's behaviour and our reactions to it are conditioned phenonomena
        which do not stay. At the moment we are thinking about these phenomena,
        they have already fallen away. The development of insight is the way to
        become less dependent on the vicissitudes of life. When there is
        mindfulness of the present moment, we attach less importance to the way
        people behave towards us." <end quote>
        *****
        “At the moment we are thinking about these phenomena, they have already
        fallen away”

        Hoping you find these offerings to be of some use.

        Sarah
        =======



        --- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@...> wrote: > Dear All,
        >
        > Recently in a discussion with a dhamma friend, something was
        > mentioned that seemed a little different to how I'd previously
        > regarded relations with others, and which I'm still thinking over.
        > The friend said that if another person points out our (true)
        > faults, "regardless of this other person's intentions", we should see
        > it as someone pointing us to treasure.


        _______________________________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
      • robertkirkpatrick.rm
        ... This is all great stuff, Sarah. Christine wrote a very nice passage along similar lines about dosa(aversion ) on d-l today. I think I can t hear enough
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 2, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          ---
          This is all great stuff, Sarah. Christine wrote a very nice passage
          along similar lines about dosa(aversion ) on d-l today.
          I think I can't hear enough about these matters.
          The posts by Sukin and Dan especially, over the last few weeks,
          about wrong practice have been so sagacious that we might overlook
          these points below, because we(or I am- no offense to anyone) are so
          conceited that we often don't even know it is present: but the thing
          is that conceit is a papanca that prolongs samsara and when we are
          not awake to it we are contented and deluded, living in a fools
          paradise. It applies just as much to one who studies the Dhamma as
          one who doesn't. Dispeller of delusion part 11 p225
          notes that one may study the Dhamma with an attitude of grasping,
          wanting to be better and wiser than others: "it is not
          permissible to learn (the discourses) actuated by presumption(or
          competitiveness,sarambho); that is on the unprofitable side and it
          is the path which leads to hell".
          It is one of the things I always get from Acharn sujin - that the
          Dhamma is learnt for the purpose of giving up self not for
          accumulating: but easy to forget and get swept along in the current
          of conceit and view and craving.
          best
          robert

          In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
          > > The following are two passages that Nina wrote in letters about
          K.Sujin's
          > example of the dustrag on that trip:
          > *****
          > 1.http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv9.html
          > "Khun Sujin had reminded us in India to become like a dustrag
          which serves
          > for wiping the feet. A dustrag takes up filth and is undisturbed
          by it.
          > One should become as humble as a dustrag. Sariputta, who could
          forgive
          > anybody, no matter whether that person treated him in an unjust
          manner,
          > compared himself with a dustrag. He had no conceit. When right
          > understanding has been developed one will cling less to the self,
          there
          > will be more humbleness. During the discussions Khun Sujin said
          again:
          >
          > I would like to be a dustrag. I follow the way to be one, it is my
          > resolution. Our resolution means that we take action by developing
          > understanding and metta. .
          >
          > It is beneficial to be reminded again of the dustrag, because
          humbleness
          > seems to go against our nature. As understanding develops it must
          lead to
          > letting go of namas and rupas. What we take for self are only
          impermanent
          > namas and rupas. When their impermanence has been realized can
          they be as
          > important as before? '
          >
          > We read in the "Vinaya" (VI, Parivara, Ch XII) how the monk should
          behave
          > when he approaches the Sangha when it is convened for the
          investigation of
          > a legal question. We read:
          >
          > ...he should approach the Order with a humble mind, with a mind as
          though
          > it were removing dust. He should be skilled about seats and
          skilled about
          > sitting down. He should sit down on a suitable seat without
          encroaching on
          > (the space intended for) monks who are Elders and without keeping
          newly
          > ordained monks from a seat. He should not talk in a desultory
          fashion, nor
          > about inferior (worldly) matters. Either he should speak Dhamma
          himself or
          > should ask another to do so, or he should not disdain the ariyan
          > silence...
          > The commentary (the Samantapasadika) adds to "with a mind as
          though it
          > were removing dust" : "like a towel for wiping the feet."
          > *****
          > 2.http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv6.html
          > "There is conceit if we have an idea that we should be "somebody
          with
          > great wisdom". We should follow Sariputta's example who compared
          himself
          > with a dustrag, a useless rag without any value. If we do not
          consider
          > ourselves "somebody", but rather a "nobody", it will prevent us
          from
          > pretending, even to ourselves, that we are more advanced than we in
          > reality are. We also need the perfection of truthfulness (sacca)
          to keep
          > us on the right track. We have to be sincere, truthful to reality.
          Do we
          > want to avoid being aware of akusala? We have to be aware of it in
          order
          > to know our true accumulations. If we are not aware of akusala we
          will
          > take what is akusala for kusala. We need to develop the perfection
          of
          > equanimity in order to learn to accept with kusala citta the
          vicissitudes
          > of life. Praise and blame are only realities which arise because
          of their
          > own conditions, in reality people are not the cause of praise or
          blame.
          > When people do wrong to us we can develop metta if we see the
          value of
          > metta. Instead of having aversion about people's bad points we
          will try to
          > remember their good qualities. If they have none there can be
          compassion
          > or there can be equanimity. There can be equanimity when we
          remember that
          > the real cause of unpleasant experiences through the senses is not
          a
          > person but our own kamma. We should carefully consider the
          different
          > perfections and then we will be reminded to develop them in our
          daily
          > life, they are needed in each situation. Khun Sujin said that
          while she
          > prepares lectures for the radio she needs many perfections, such
          as metta,
          > patience, energy and equanimity. When there is equanimity she does
          not
          > feel hurt when people do not want to listen to her or when they
          criticize
          > her." <en quotes>
          > *****
          >
          > When we listen to and consider the teachings, as we read in the
          Simile of
          > the Snake, they should be `grasped' in a way which leads to less
          mana and
          > clinging to self importance rather than the reverse.
          >
          > I know this is getting rather long, but at risk of over-testing
          > everyone's patience, I'd like to requote two paragraphs from ADL
          (ch 5)
          > which Larry wisely repeated in a post to Dai Wen as an offering of
          > assistance for the difficult office situation, emphasising the
          value of
          > understanding phenomena as namas and rupas, not self:
          > --------------------
          > "All degrees of lobha, be it coarse or more subtle, bring sorrow.
          We are
          > like slaves as long as we are absorbed in and infatuated by the
          objects
          > which present themselves through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body-
          sense
          > and mind. We are not free if our happiness depends on the
          situation we
          > are in, and the way others behave towards us. One moment people
          may be
          > kind to us, but the next moment they may be unpleasant. If we
          attach too
          > much importance to the affection of other, we shall be easily
          disturbed
          > in mind, and thus become slaves of our moods and emotions.
          >
          > We can become more independent and free if we realize that both we
          > ourselves and other people are only nama and rupa, phenomena
          arising
          > because of conditions and falling away again. When others say
          unpleasant
          > things to us there are conditions which cause them to speak in
          that way,
          > and there are conditions which cause us to hear such words. Other
          > people's behaviour and our reactions to it are conditioned
          phenonomena
          > which do not stay. At the moment we are thinking about these
          phenomena,
          > they have already fallen away. The development of insight is the
          way to
          > become less dependent on the vicissitudes of life. When there is
          > mindfulness of the present moment, we attach less importance to
          the way
          > people behave towards us." <end quote>
          > *****
          > "At the moment we are thinking about these phenomena, they have
          already
          > fallen away"
          >
          > Hoping you find these offerings to be of some use.
          >
          > Sarah
          > =======
          >
          >
          >
          > --- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> wrote: > Dear All,
          > >
          > > Recently in a discussion with a dhamma friend, something was
          > > mentioned that seemed a little different to how I'd previously
          > > regarded relations with others, and which I'm still thinking
          over.
          > > The friend said that if another person points out our (true)
          > > faults, "regardless of this other person's intentions", we
          should see
          > > it as someone pointing us to treasure.
          >
          >
          >
          _____________________________________________________________________
          __
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Get your free @... address at
          http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
        • yuzhonghao
          ... Robert and all, See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-01.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-002.html Dhamma is
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 2, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            > It is one of the things I always get from Acharn sujin - that the
            > Dhamma is learnt for the purpose of giving up self not for
            > accumulating: but easy to forget and get swept along in the current
            > of conceit and view and craving.
            > best
            > robert

            Robert and all,

            See
            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-01.html
            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-002.html

            Dhamma is learned not for the purpose of giving up self.

            Regards,
            Victor
          • Sarah
            Hi Victor, ... I’ve just followed your first reference which of course refers to the discussion between King pasenadi and Queen Mallika about the realisation
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 2, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Victor,

              --- yuzhonghao <victoryu@...> wrote:
              > See
              > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-01.html
              > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-002.html
              >
              > Dhamma is learned not for the purpose of giving up self.

              I’ve just followed your first reference which of course refers to the
              discussion between King pasenadi and Queen Mallika about the realisation
              of the strong attachment to self.

              The Buddha says:

              “Searching all directions
              with one's awareness,
              one finds no one dearer
              than oneself.
              In the same way, others
              are fiercely dear to themselves.
              So one should not hurt others
              if one loves oneself.”
              *****
              In other words, in all the world, the greatest clinging is to *ourselves*.
              Does this mean the purpose of the Dhamma is to encourage this clinging? Of
              course not. The purpose is to understand that it is this very clinging (to
              the khandhas that make up what we take for self) that leads to suffering
              and should be eradicated. As we find the *self* dear, so others do too.
              Therefore, we should treat others well.

              We’ve discussed the commentary to this sutta before, Victor, so I won’t
              repeat it;-)

              On the question you often raise about whether there is a self outside the
              khandhas, I’d like to repeat the following verses from Visuddhimagga, ch
              19:
              .....

              “Therefore have the ancients said,
              "No doer is there does the deed,
              Nor is there one who feels the fruit;
              Constituent parts alone roll on;
              This view alone is orthodox.
              "And thus the deed, and thus the fruit
              Roll on and on, each from its cause;
              As of the round of tree and seed,
              No one can tell when they began.
              "Nor is the time to be perceived
              In future births when they shall cease.
              The heretics perceive not this,
              And fail of mastery o'er themselves.
              "'An Ego,' say they, 'doth exist,
              Eternal, or that soon will cease;'
              Thus two-and-sixty heresies
              They 'mongst themselves discordant hold.
              "Bound in the bonds of heresy,
              By passion's flood they're borne along;
              And borne along by passion's flood,
              From misery find they no release.
              "If once these facts he but perceive,
              A priest whose faith on Buddha rests,
              The subtile, deep, and self-devoid
              Dependence then will penetrate.
              "Not in its fruit is found the deed,
              Nor in the deed finds one the fruit;
              Of each the other is devoid,
              Yet there's no fruit without the deed.
              "Just as no store of fire is found
              In jewel, cow-dung, or the sun,
              Nor separate from these exists,
              Yet short of fuel no fire is known;
              "Even so we ne'er within the deed
              Can retribution's fruit descry,
              Nor yet in any place without;
              Nor can in fruit the deed be found.
              "Deeds separate from their fruits exist,
              And fruits are separate from the deeds:
              But consequent upon the deed
              The fruit doth into being come.
              "No god of heaven or Brahma-world
              Doth cause the endless round of birth;
              Constituent parts alone roll on,
              From cause and from material sprung." “
              *****
              Best wishes,

              Sarah
              ======


              _______________________________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
            • yuzhonghao
              Sarah, See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-121.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-052.html Reply in context. ... the
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 3, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Sarah,

                See
                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-121.html
                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-052.html



                Reply in context.



                --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
                > Hi Victor,
                >
                > --- yuzhonghao <victoryu@s...> wrote:
                > > See
                > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-01.html
                > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-002.html
                > >
                > > Dhamma is learned not for the purpose of giving up self.
                >
                > I've just followed your first reference which of course refers to
                the
                > discussion between King pasenadi and Queen Mallika about the
                realisation
                > of the strong attachment to self.
                >
                > The Buddha says:
                >
                > "Searching all directions
                > with one's awareness,
                > one finds no one dearer
                > than oneself.
                > In the same way, others
                > are fiercely dear to themselves.
                > So one should not hurt others
                > if one loves oneself."
                > *****
                > In other words, in all the world, the greatest clinging is to
                *ourselves*.




                How did you infer from what you quoted that the greatest clinging is
                to ourselves?



                See
                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-121.html
                again.



                > Does this mean the purpose of the Dhamma is to encourage this
                clinging?



                See
                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-002.html
                again.



                Of
                > course not. The purpose is to understand that it is this very
                clinging (to
                > the khandhas that make up what we take for self) that leads to
                suffering
                > and should be eradicated.





                Let me know if this reasoning make sense:

                1. This very clinging is clinging to the aggregates.

                2. The aggregates make up what we take for self.

                3. Thus this clinging is clinging to self.





                > As we find the *self* dear, so others do too.
                > Therefore, we should treat others well.





                Does * symbol around the words "ourselves" and "self" signify
                anything special? If yes, what does it signify?






                > On the question you often raise about whether there is a self
                outside the
                > khandhas,



                See
                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html



                Regards,
                Victor
              • Sarah
                Dear Victor, Thank you for your many helpful references as usual which I’ve just been ... S: As we find the *self* dear, so others do too. ... V: Does *
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 5, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Victor,

                  Thank you for your many helpful references as usual which I’ve just been
                  checking. I’m rearranging your comments and references here:

                  --- yuzhonghao <victoryu@...> wrote: > Sarah,

                  S:> > As we find the *self* dear, so others do too.
                  > > Therefore, we should treat others well.
                  >
                  V:> Does * symbol around the words "ourselves" and "self" signify
                  > anything special? If yes, what does it signify?
                  .....
                  As you and I often have a different understanding when we use self/*self*,
                  I tend to use the * when I write to you to indicate that this is
                  conventional speech only (hopefully to pre-empt any suggestion by you
                  that there is a suggestion of self being a reality). As Howard said, we
                  all (including the Buddha) need to use conventional speech.
                  .....
                  S:> > "Searching all directions
                  > > with one's awareness,
                  > > one finds no one dearer
                  > > than oneself.
                  > > In the same way, others
                  > > are fiercely dear to themselves.
                  > > So one should not hurt others
                  > > if one loves oneself."
                  > > *****
                  > > In other words, in all the world, the greatest clinging is to
                  > *ourselves*.
                  >
                  V:> How did you infer from what you quoted that the greatest clinging is
                  > to ourselves?
                  .....
                  “One finds no one dearer than oneself”.

                  Here *oneself* is again used conventionally. In reality what is it that
                  there is clinging to? Surely it is to the visible objects, sounds, smells,
                  tastes, tactile experiences and mental objects experienced by *ourselves*.

                  I believe that your 4 quotes here are very helpful and confirm these
                  points well. By understanding that what we take for *self* are merely
                  these different phenomena and that it is the clinging to them --and
                  misunderstanding of them --that prolongs life in samsara:
                  .....
                  V:> See
                  > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-121.html
                  > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-052.html

                  > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-01.html
                  > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-002.html
                  .....
                  “'And seeing what danger does your teacher teach the subduing of passion &
                  desire for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications.
                  Seeing what danger does your teacher teach the subduing of passion &
                  desire for consciousness?'

                  "Thus asked, you should answer, 'When one is not free from passion,
                  desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for form, then from any change &
                  alteration in that form, there arises sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, &
                  despair. When one is not free from passion... for feeling... for
                  perception... for fabrications... When one is not free from passion,
                  desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for consciousness, then from any
                  change & alteration in that consciousness, there arise sorrow,
                  lamentation, pain, grief, & despair..”
                  *****
                  What we take for *self* consists of these different phenomena.
                  .....
                  V:> Let me know if this reasoning make sense:
                  >
                  > 1. This very clinging is clinging to the aggregates.
                  >
                  > 2. The aggregates make up what we take for self.
                  >
                  > 3. Thus this clinging is clinging to self.
                  .....

                  Yes, that’s why in the Udana, conventionally speaking, it says there is
                  “no one dearer than oneself”.
                  .....
                  V:> > On the question you often raise about whether there is a self
                  > outside the
                  > > khandhas,
                  >
                  > See
                  > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html
                  .....
                  You’re referring me to the Ananda sutta and probably to these lines:
                  .....
                  "And if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self
                  -- were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would
                  become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not
                  exist?'" >
                  .....
                  In a note to these lines, B.Bodhi (in his translation of SN) suggests the
                  reason the Buddha does not declare at this point “There is no Self” would
                  have been “ 1) because such a mode of expression was used by the
                  annihilationists, and the Buddha wanted to avoid aligning his teaching
                  with theirs; and 2) because he wished to avoid causing confusion in those
                  already attached to the idea of self. The Buddha declares that “all
                  phenomena are nonself” (sabbe dhammaa anattaa), which means that if one
                  seeks a self anywhere one will not find one. Since “all phenomena”
                  includes both the conditioned and the unconditioned, this precludes an
                  utterly transcendent, ineffable self”. <end quote, p.1457>
                  *****
                  For my part, I believe it’s not enough to just read a few lines in one
                  sutta to understand a point, but we have to read many, many suttas,
                  commentaries and Abhidhamma texts as well, to really understand why the
                  Buddha spoke in a particular way in a particular context.

                  Thanks, Victor, you always add some helpful links and keep questioning
                  and challenging what we all say, which I believe is helpful for us all,
                  even if we get a little impatient at times;-)) I know you'll let me know
                  (and suggest I read the suttas again;-)) if there are still any points of
                  disagreement.

                  Sarah
                  =====


                  _______________________________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                • Jonothan Abbott
                  Sarah and All ... Just after reading this I came across a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon that talked about being a doormat in a very similar context. In the
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 5, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Sarah and All

                    --- Sarah <sarahdhhk@...> wrote:
                    > Dear Christine & All,
                    ...
                    > We also know that because of the attachment to self and finding oneself
                    > so
                    > important, we cling to the 8 worldly conditions and very seldom see the
                    > value of being a ‘nobody’ or a dust-rag as Sariputta did. On one of our
                    > trips to India, K.Sujin talked a lot about the value of reflecting in
                    > this
                    > very way. When I first heard it, again the banner would start waving and
                    > I
                    > was aware of how much discomfort there was at considering the value of
                    > being a door-mat that anyone could criticise or trample over. Gradually,
                    > I’ve come to appreciate these reminders more and more and to see what
                    > precious ‘treasure’ they are.

                    Just after reading this I came across a 'Calvin and Hobbes' cartoon that
                    talked about 'being a doormat' in a very similar context. In the strip,
                    Calvin refuses to get out of the way of the local bully, saying somewhat
                    self-righteously 'A person can't be a doormat unless he allows himself to
                    be one'. On being duly trampled over, he declares "I've got to stop
                    reading those dumb advice columns".

                    Joking aside there is I think a danger of misunderstanding the idea that
                    one should be like a dust-rag. It is I believe a reference to aspects of
                    (naturally arising) kusala.

                    I have an idea the reference to being a dust-rag comes from the texts.
                    Does anyone know the reference?

                    Jon


                    _______________________________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                  • Jonothan Abbott
                    Christine Thanks for bringing this up. As usual your little summary pretty well covers the topic! One or two personal slants on the theme. I tend to think of
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 5, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Christine

                      Thanks for bringing this up. As usual your little summary pretty well
                      covers the topic! One or two personal slants on the theme.

                      I tend to think of the situation being described here as another instance
                      of the need to focus on the message and not the manner or means of its
                      delivery. It is so easy to ignore or even reject true dhamma because of
                      aversion to the speaker, to the circumstance of the occasion or to some
                      other wholly irrelevant (in the overall scheme of things) consideration.
                      It takes a certain confidence in the value of the teachings, and other
                      qualities as well, to be able to put these considerations aside.

                      The other point that I find it useful to be reminded of is the inestimable
                      value of seeing one's faults (i.e., one's akusala). I mention this
                      because approaches/practices that emphasise having more kusala and less
                      akusala as the means of developing the path or as an indicator of progress
                      along the path tend as I see it to incline one in the opposite direction,
                      i.e., to 'seeing' more kusala, and perhaps to discouragement at the idea
                      that there is more, and more deeply rooted, akusala than one ever
                      imagined.

                      Just as one can be pleased at coming across treasure, so in a sense can
                      becoming aware of previously unrecognised akusala be something to be
                      welcomed.

                      Jon

                      --- christine_forsyth <cforsyth@...> wrote: > Dear All,
                      >
                      > Recently in a discussion with a dhamma friend, something was
                      > mentioned that seemed a little different to how I'd previously
                      > regarded relations with others, and which I'm still thinking over.
                      > The friend said that if another person points out our (true)
                      > faults, "regardless of this other person's intentions", we should see
                      > it as someone pointing us to treasure.
                      > As well, the friend quoted a passage from Majjhima Nikaya 140, Dhatu-
                      > vibhabga Sutta, "An Analysis of the Properties"
                      > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn140.html
                      > "Yes, monk, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish,
                      > so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to assume that it was proper to
                      > address me as 'friend.' But because you see your transgression as
                      > such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your
                      > confession. For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & discipline of
                      > the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends
                      > in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future."
                      >
                      > Mostly, in ordinary everyday life, criticising others or being
                      > criticised is seen as impolite. So, I guess this is a hard thing for
                      > me - seeing criticism as something not just to consider, but as
                      > something to be glad of, as if I had been told the whereabouts of
                      > treasure. The 'normal' reaction I usually have, and which I see in
                      > many others, is to become defensive, experience unwholesome emotions,
                      > and, perhaps, suspect the motives of the other. Usually, I initially
                      > see most criticism as incorrect ('who me? Couldn't be!') before after
                      > some time passes, being able to assess it fairly. Given this
                      > propensity, to see oneself as right and good, how do we know
                      > our 'true' faults? The phrase "regardless of this other person's
                      > intentions" is difficult. The other person could really be making
                      > untrue statements out of misunderstanding or maliciousness...hard to
                      > control an emotional reaction if it is believed the other knows the
                      > statements are untrue.
                      >
                      > I know this could be viewed as a trivial thing, and yet, for some of
                      > us, emotions are the strings that make the puppet dance.......
                      >
                      > metta,
                      > Christine




                      _______________________________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                    • Jim Anderson
                      Hi Jon,To find a reference one would need to know the Pali word for dust-rag. In Buddhadatta s English-Pali dictionary I couldn t find an entry for dust-rag
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 5, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Jon,

                        To find a reference one would need to know the Pali word for dust-rag. In
                        Buddhadatta's English-Pali dictionary I couldn't find an entry for dust-rag
                        but there is one for duster which I think is pretty much the same thing. The
                        Pali word for duster is rajohara.na.m. It is found only twice in the
                        Tipitaka in the same sutta, the Sihanada Sutta (AN IX.11). I don't have an
                        English translation handy and I couldnt't find one online but I can see it
                        in the Pali. The passage on the duster or dust-rag is found in the fifth
                        simile. Could this be what you have in mind?

                        Best wishes,
                        Jim

                        > Joking aside there is I think a danger of misunderstanding the idea that
                        > one should be like a dust-rag. It is I believe a reference to aspects of
                        > (naturally arising) kusala.
                        >
                        > I have an idea the reference to being a dust-rag comes from the texts.
                        > Does anyone know the reference?
                        >
                        > Jon
                        >
                        >
                        > _______________________________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >


                        _________________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
                      • srnsk@aol.com
                        Hi Jon, Jim, and all; This is an incident mentioned in vutathi-sutta. There is some discussion about a dust-rag on dsg about a year ago. In tipitaka, Thai
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 5, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Jon, Jim, and all;

                          This is an incident mentioned in vutathi-sutta. There is some discussion
                          about a dust-rag on dsg about a year ago. In tipitaka, Thai edition, it's
                          the first sutta in Sihanadavagga, Navakanipata, Anguttara-nikaya. A young
                          monk went to Buddha and claimed that Ven. Sariputta slightly hit him when
                          Ven. Sariputta was passing by. He said that Ven. Sariputta did not ask him
                          for his forgiveness. Ven.Sariputta then gave a discourse about bodily
                          awareness (kayagatasati). He gave analogies of being humble with behaving
                          according to the earth (similar to earth, it does not loathe with the pure
                          and the impure, excreta, urine, saliva, pus, or blood), to the water, to the
                          fire, to the wind, to a dust-rag, like when an outcast girl or boy going in
                          to a market, like a bull with no horn, like a young man or woman distastes
                          corpse, the body is like an oil container with holes. At the end, the young
                          monk asked for forgiveness from both Ven.Sariputta and the Buddha.

                          The dust-rag is also mentioned couple times in Parivara, Vinayapitaka rgd how
                          monks, both senior and junior, should behave to each other.

                          At this moment, I do not have my Pali or Thai-Pali CD-rom with me. I will try
                          to look it up when I am back in BKK.

                          I discussed this with Kom before that we should appreciate a person or an
                          incident that helps us see our kilesa clearer and better. Panna needs food
                          and good friends to grow.

                          Best wishes and bon voyage for everyone on Sri Lanka trip.

                          Num
                        • Kom Tukovinit
                          Jonothan, It is about 10 suttas after this one (can t find it on access): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-001.html kom
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 5, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Jonothan,

                            It is about 10 suttas after this one (can't find it on access):

                            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-001.html

                            kom

                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@...]

                            > I have an idea the reference to being a dust-rag comes from the texts.
                            > Does anyone know the reference?
                            >
                            > Jon
                            >
                            >
                            > _______________________________________________________________________
                            > Do You Yahoo!?
                            > Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Sarah
                            Hi Kom, Num, Jim & Jon, When I referred to K.Sujin s comments the other day, I wasn t able to locate the sutta, so I m glad to have been directed here by you
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 5, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Kom, Num, Jim & Jon,

                              When I referred to K.Sujin's comments the other day, I wasn't able to
                              locate the sutta, so I'm glad to have been directed here by you all:

                              In the PTS translation (Hare) it is in Bk of 9s, Ch 11 ‘The Lion Roar’,
                              i,11 (as Jim said) and also in B.Bodhi’s “Numerical Discourses of the
                              Buddha’, under ‘Sariputta’s Lion’s Roar’, p231.

                              Num just gave a good summary and helpful points. Let me add a few quotes
                              from BB’s translation as Sariputta’s reminders are so useful, I find, to
                              repeat here:
                              *****
                              “Just as, Lord, people throw upon the earth things clean and unclean,
                              dung, urine, spittle, pus and blood, yet for all that the earth has no
                              revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with
                              a heart that is like the earth, vast, exalted and measureless, without
                              hostility and without ill will. However, one in whom mindfulness directed
                              on the body in regard to the body is not present may well hit a fellow
                              monk and leave without an apology.

                              “Just as. Lord, people use water to wash things clean and unclean, things
                              soiled.......<etc>

                              “Just as, Lord, fire burns things clean and unclean, things
                              soiled....<etc>

                              “Just as, Lord, the wind blows over things clean and unclean.....<etc>

                              “Lord, just as a duster wipes over things clean and unclean, things soiled
                              with dung, urine, pus and blood, yet for all that the duster has no
                              revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with
                              a heart that is like a duster....<etc>

                              “Lord, just as an outcast boy or girl, begging-vessel in hand and clad in
                              rags, enters a village with a humble heart; even so, Lord, do I dwell with
                              a heart like that of an outcast youth, a heart that is vast, exalted and
                              measureless, without hostility and without ill will......<etc>
                              <end quote>

                              *****

                              There are a few more examples too, as Num mentioned. In the PTS
                              translation, duster is also used with a footnote:“rajohara.na.m. Comy,
                              co.laka, a cloth”.

                              Num, the Vinaya reference you mention is the one that I copied from Nina,
                              I believe. (As the Comy mentions it can be used for wiping the feet here,
                              perhaps 'cloth' rather than 'duster' would be the more appropriate
                              translation). Let me give the quote again:
                              .....
                              Nina: "We read in the "Vinaya" (VI, Parivara, Ch XII) how the monk should
                              behave
                              when he approaches the Sangha when it is convened for the investigation of
                              a legal question. We read:

                              ...he should approach the Order with a humble mind, with a mind as though
                              it were removing dust. He should be skilled about seats and skilled about
                              sitting down. He should sit down on a suitable seat without encroaching on
                              (the space intended for) monks who are Elders and without keeping newly
                              ordained monks from a seat. He should not talk in a desultory fashion, nor
                              about inferior (worldly) matters. Either he should speak Dhamma himself or
                              should ask another to do so, or he should not disdain the ariyan
                              silence...
                              The commentary (the Samantapasadika) adds to "with a mind as though it
                              were removing dust" : "like a towel for wiping the feet."
                              *****

                              Sarah
                              ======



                              _______________________________________________________________________
                              Do You Yahoo!?
                              Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                            • yuzhonghao
                              ... [snip] ... [snip] ... self/*self*, ... you ... Each and every aggregate is not self. See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-059.html [snip]
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 6, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
                                > Dear Victor,
                                [snip]
                                > --- yuzhonghao <victoryu@s...> wrote: > Sarah,
                                [snip]
                                > As you and I often have a different understanding when we use
                                self/*self*,
                                > I tend to use the * when I write to you to indicate that this is
                                > conventional speech only (hopefully to pre-empt any suggestion by
                                you
                                > that there is a suggestion of self being a reality).





                                Each and every aggregate is not self.
                                See
                                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-059.html





                                [snip]
                                > >
                                > V:> How did you infer from what you quoted that the greatest
                                clinging is
                                > > to ourselves?
                                > .....
                                > "One finds no one dearer than oneself".
                                >
                                > Here *oneself* is again used conventionally. In reality what is it
                                that
                                > there is clinging to? Surely it is to the visible objects, sounds,
                                smells,
                                > tastes, tactile experiences and mental objects experienced by
                                *ourselves*.
                                >
                                > I believe that your 4 quotes here are very helpful and confirm these
                                > points well. By understanding that what we take for *self* are
                                merely
                                > these different phenomena and that it is the clinging to them --and
                                > misunderstanding of them --that prolongs life in samsara:




                                See
                                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html

                                These different phenomena are not to be taken for self.




                                [snip]
                                > What we take for *self* consists of these different phenomena.




                                See
                                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html
                                again.

                                The view "self consists of these different phenomena" is not to be
                                assumed.





                                [snip]
                                > .....
                                > V:> > On the question you often raise about whether there is a self
                                > > outside the
                                > > > khandhas,
                                > >
                                > > See
                                > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html
                                > .....
                                > You're referring me to the Ananda sutta and probably to these lines:






                                I would like you to read the whole discourse.






                                [snip]
                                > Thanks, Victor, you always add some helpful links and keep
                                questioning
                                > and challenging what we all say, which I believe is helpful for us
                                all,
                                > even if we get a little impatient at times;-))






                                What is it that we all say?






                                [snip]
                                >
                                > Sarah
                                > =====


                                Regards,
                                Victor
                              • Sarah
                                Dear Victor, This discussion started from a comment Rob K made: R: Dhamma is learnt for the purpose of giving up self not for ... You replied: V:See
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jun 6, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear Victor,

                                  This discussion started from a comment Rob K made:

                                  R:> Dhamma is learnt for the purpose of giving up self not for
                                  > accumulating:

                                  You replied:
                                  V:See
                                  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-01.html
                                  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-002.html

                                  Dhamma is learned not for the purpose of giving up self.
                                  *****

                                  I've followed these references and the other ones you've given and added
                                  comments on them as I understood. I think at this stage you'll have to
                                  elaborate your cryptic comments, questions and meaning given in your
                                  latest post to me in far more detail-- for those of us who are not so
                                  smart at riddles--;-)

                                  It may be the flu virus (let's hope), but I'm feeling particularly dense
                                  this evening.

                                  thanks, Victor

                                  Sarah
                                  ======




                                  _______________________________________________________________________
                                  Do You Yahoo!?
                                  Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                                • yuzhonghao
                                  Hi Sarah, I will try to elaborate more on my response to you. ... by ... Let me know if the statement each and every aggregate is not self is unclear or
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jun 6, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Sarah,

                                    I will try to elaborate more on my response to you.


                                    --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "yuzhonghao" <victoryu@s...> wrote:
                                    > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
                                    > > Dear Victor,
                                    > [snip]
                                    > > --- yuzhonghao <victoryu@s...> wrote: > Sarah,
                                    > [snip]
                                    > > As you and I often have a different understanding when we use
                                    > self/*self*,
                                    > > I tend to use the * when I write to you to indicate that this is
                                    > > conventional speech only (hopefully to pre-empt any suggestion
                                    by
                                    > you
                                    > > that there is a suggestion of self being a reality).
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Each and every aggregate is not self.
                                    > See
                                    > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-059.html



                                    Let me know if the statement "each and every aggregate is not self"
                                    is unclear or cryptic. Does it suggest what you said I suggest?




                                    > [snip]
                                    > > >
                                    > > V:> How did you infer from what you quoted that the greatest
                                    > clinging is
                                    > > > to ourselves?
                                    > > .....
                                    > > "One finds no one dearer than oneself".
                                    > >
                                    > > Here *oneself* is again used conventionally. In reality what is
                                    it
                                    > that
                                    > > there is clinging to? Surely it is to the visible objects,
                                    sounds,
                                    > smells,
                                    > > tastes, tactile experiences and mental objects experienced by
                                    > *ourselves*.
                                    > >
                                    > > I believe that your 4 quotes here are very helpful and confirm
                                    these
                                    > > points well. By understanding that what we take for *self* are
                                    > merely
                                    > > these different phenomena and that it is the clinging to them --
                                    and
                                    > > misunderstanding of them --that prolongs life in samsara:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > See
                                    > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html
                                    >
                                    > These different phenomena are not to be taken for self.



                                    I find the statement "what we take for self are merely these
                                    different phenomena" cryptic and vague. Does it mean "self are
                                    merely these different phenomena"? Does everyone take the aggregates
                                    for self?




                                    Read the discourse and examine what you said "what we take for self
                                    are merely these different phenomena" with what is being said in the
                                    discourse.





                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [snip]
                                    > > What we take for *self* consists of these different phenomena.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > See
                                    > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html
                                    > again.
                                    >
                                    > The view "self consists of these different phenomena" is not to be
                                    > assumed.
                                    >




                                    Again, read the discourse and examine what you said "what we take for
                                    self consists of these different phenomena" with what is being said
                                    in the discourse.






                                    > [snip]
                                    > > .....
                                    > > V:> > On the question you often raise about whether there is a
                                    self
                                    > > > outside the
                                    > > > > khandhas,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > See
                                    > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html
                                    > > .....
                                    > > You're referring me to the Ananda sutta and probably to these
                                    lines:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I would like you to read the whole discourse.



                                    I was referring you to the whole discourse, including but not limited
                                    to the lines you quoted.




                                    > [snip]
                                    > > Thanks, Victor,



                                    You are welcome, Sarah.



                                    you always add some helpful links and keep
                                    > questioning
                                    > > and challenging what we all say, which I believe is helpful for
                                    us
                                    > all,
                                    > > even if we get a little impatient at times;-))
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > What is it that we all say?




                                    I am interested in what you have in mind about what we all say.




                                    > [snip]
                                    > >
                                    > > Sarah
                                    > > =====




                                    I hope that I have provided links to discourses that are helpful.




                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Regards,
                                    > Victor
                                  • Nina van Gorkom
                                    Dear Num, The text about the dustrag in the Vinaya Parivara, especially the Co. was given by Sarah when she quoted what I had written about the dustrag.
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jun 6, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dear Num,

                                      The text about the dustrag in the Vinaya Parivara, especially the Co. was
                                      given by Sarah when she quoted what I had written about the dustrag.

                                      <We read in the "Vinaya" (VI, Parivara, Ch XII) how the monk should behave
                                      when he approaches the Sangha when it is convened for the investigation of
                                      a legal question. We read:

                                      ...he should approach the Order with a humble mind, with a mind as though
                                      it were removing dust. He should be skilled about seats and skilled about
                                      sitting down. He should sit down on a suitable seat without encroaching on
                                      (the space intended for) monks who are Elders and without keeping newly
                                      ordained monks from a seat. He should not talk in a desultory fashion, nor
                                      about inferior (worldly) matters. Either he should speak Dhamma himself or
                                      should ask another to do so, or he should not disdain the ariyan
                                      silence...
                                      The commentary (the Samantapasadika) adds to "with a mind as though it
                                      were removing dust" : "like a towel for wiping the feet." >
                                      ****
                                      op 05-06-2002 18:34 schreef srnsk@... op srnsk@...:
                                      > The dust-rag is also mentioned couple times in Parivara, Vinayapitaka rgd how
                                      > monks, both senior and junior, should behave to each other.
                                      >
                                      > At this moment, I do not have my Pali or Thai-Pali CD-rom with me. I will try
                                      > to look it up when I am back in BKK.
                                      >
                                      > I discussed this with Kom before that we should appreciate a person or an
                                      > incident that helps us see our kilesa clearer and better. Panna needs food
                                      > and good friends to grow.

                                      N: I like especially your last sentence, you must have great discussions
                                      with Kom, if possible I like to hear more.
                                      With appreciation, Nina.



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Sarah
                                      Dear Victor, ... We all agree. ... It means that the self doesn’t exist but because of ignorance and wrong view, the aggregates and the concepts about them
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jun 7, 2002
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dear Victor,

                                        --- yuzhonghao <victoryu@...> wrote:

                                        > > Each and every aggregate is not self.

                                        We all agree.

                                        > I find the statement "what we take for self are merely these
                                        > different phenomena" cryptic and vague. Does it mean "self are
                                        > merely these different phenomena"? Does everyone take the aggregates
                                        > for self?

                                        It means that the self doesn’t exist but because of ignorance and wrong
                                        view, the aggregates and the concepts about them are taken for self. With
                                        regard to your second question, the answer is ‘yes’, everyone, unless we
                                        have heard the teachings of the Buddha and developed an understanding of
                                        namas and rupas (i.e. the aggregates).

                                        > I am interested in what you have in mind about what we all say.

                                        I was referring to the various comments that different members make on
                                        DSG.

                                        I apologise for any comments of mine that were not clear or for any
                                        suggestion that I was suggesting what you were suggesting.....;-)

                                        I’m under doctor’s orders to rest when I’m not teaching, so I think I will
                                        leave any other points, re-reads of suttas and posts (inc. Manji’s -
                                        thanks, Manji) to Kom & others ‘til after our trip.

                                        Sarah

                                        p.s. Lucy, I may even check out England’s match this evening;-)
                                        ================================================


                                        _______________________________________________________________________
                                        Do You Yahoo!?
                                        Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                                      • Jonothan Abbott
                                        Jim, Num, Kom, Sarah and All Many thanks for your contributions on this thread and for taking the time to get the relevant material. I have enjoyed and
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jun 8, 2002
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Jim, Num, Kom, Sarah and All

                                          Many thanks for your contributions on this thread and for taking the time
                                          to get the relevant material. I have enjoyed and benefited from it.

                                          On the same general subject, if anyone has the reference to the other
                                          analogy in Christine's original post (of the person who points out our
                                          faults being regarded as pointing us to treasure), I would be interested
                                          in seeing that, too.

                                          Jon

                                          --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@...> wrote:
                                          > Hi Jon,
                                          >
                                          > To find a reference one would need to know the Pali word for dust-rag.
                                          > In
                                          > Buddhadatta's English-Pali dictionary I couldn't find an entry for
                                          > dust-rag
                                          > but there is one for duster which I think is pretty much the same thing.
                                          > The
                                          > Pali word for duster is rajohara.na.m. It is found only twice in the
                                          > Tipitaka in the same sutta, the Sihanada Sutta (AN IX.11). I don't have
                                          > an
                                          > English translation handy and I couldnt't find one online but I can see
                                          > it
                                          > in the Pali. The passage on the duster or dust-rag is found in the fifth
                                          > simile. Could this be what you have in mind?
                                          >
                                          > Best wishes,
                                          > Jim


                                          _______________________________________________________________________
                                          Do You Yahoo!?
                                          Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                                        • robertkirkpatrick.rm
                                          ... Dear Jon, How the bodhistta reflecst when people do wrong to him: If there were no wrong-doers, how could I accomplish the perfection of patience? And:
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jun 8, 2002
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            ---
                                            Dear Jon,
                                            How the bodhistta reflecst when people do wrong to him:
                                            "If there were no wrong-doers, how could I accomplish the
                                            perfection of patience?" And: "Although he is a wrong-doer now, in
                                            the past he was my benefactor." And: "A wrong-doer is also a
                                            benefactor, for he is the basis for developing patience."
                                            http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm
                                            best wishes
                                            robert

                                            In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> wrote:
                                            > Jim, Num, Kom, Sarah and All
                                            >
                                            > Many thanks for your contributions on this thread and for taking
                                            the time
                                            > to get the relevant material. I have enjoyed and benefited from
                                            it.
                                            >
                                            > On the same general subject, if anyone has the reference to the
                                            other
                                            > analogy in Christine's original post (of the person who points out
                                            our
                                            > faults being regarded as pointing us to treasure), I would be
                                            interested
                                            > in seeing that, too.
                                            >
                                            > Jon
                                            >
                                            > --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
                                            > > Hi Jon,
                                            > >
                                            > > To find a reference one would need to know the Pali word for
                                            dust-rag.
                                            > > In
                                            > > Buddhadatta's English-Pali dictionary I couldn't find an entry
                                            for
                                            > > dust-rag
                                            > > but there is one for duster which I think is pretty much the
                                            same thing.
                                            > > The
                                            > > Pali word for duster is rajohara.na.m. It is found only twice in
                                            the
                                            > > Tipitaka in the same sutta, the Sihanada Sutta (AN IX.11). I
                                            don't have
                                            > > an
                                            > > English translation handy and I couldnt't find one online but I
                                            can see
                                            > > it
                                            > > in the Pali. The passage on the duster or dust-rag is found in
                                            the fifth
                                            > > simile. Could this be what you have in mind?
                                            > >
                                            > > Best wishes,
                                            > > Jim
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            _____________________________________________________________________
                                            __
                                            > Do You Yahoo!?
                                            > Get your free @... address at
                                            http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                                          • Nina van Gorkom
                                            Dhammapada, Ch VI, vs 76, 77; (translation of Ven. Narada): 76. Should one see a wise man, who, like a revealer of treasures, points out faults and reproves,
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Jun 9, 2002
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Dhammapada, Ch VI, vs 76, 77; (translation of Ven. Narada):

                                              76. Should one see a wise man, who, like a revealer of treasures, points out
                                              faults and reproves, let one associate with such a wise person; it will be
                                              better, not worse, for him who associates with such a one.
                                              77. Let him advise, instruct, and dissuade one from evil; truly pleasing is
                                              he to the good, displeasing is he to the bad.

                                              Nina.

                                              op 08-06-2002 11:05 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@...:
                                              Jon wrote:
                                              >
                                              > On the same general subject, if anyone has the reference to the other
                                              > analogy in Christine's original post (of the person who points out our
                                              > faults being regarded as pointing us to treasure), I would be interested
                                              > in seeing that, too.
                                            • Jonothan Abbott
                                              Rob Thanks very much for this. I find the idea of wrongdoer as benefactor an inspiring one (but not an easy thing to realise in practice -- I think mana is
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Jun 16, 2002
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Rob

                                                Thanks very much for this. I find the idea of 'wrongdoer as benefactor'
                                                an inspiring one (but not an easy thing to realise in practice -- I think
                                                mana is a geat obstacle here).

                                                Jon

                                                --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" <robertkirkpatrick@...> wrote: >
                                                ---
                                                > Dear Jon,
                                                > How the bodhistta reflecst when people do wrong to him:
                                                > "If there were no wrong-doers, how could I accomplish the
                                                > perfection of patience?" And: "Although he is a wrong-doer now, in
                                                > the past he was my benefactor." And: "A wrong-doer is also a
                                                > benefactor, for he is the basis for developing patience."
                                                > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm
                                                > best wishes
                                                > robert
                                                >
                                                > In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> wrote:
                                                > > Jim, Num, Kom, Sarah and All
                                                > >
                                                > > Many thanks for your contributions on this thread and for taking
                                                > the time
                                                > > to get the relevant material. I have enjoyed and benefited from
                                                > it.
                                                > >
                                                > > On the same general subject, if anyone has the reference to the
                                                > other
                                                > > analogy in Christine's original post (of the person who points out
                                                > our
                                                > > faults being regarded as pointing us to treasure), I would be
                                                > interested
                                                > > in seeing that, too.
                                                > >
                                                > > Jon
                                                > >
                                                > > --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
                                                > > > Hi Jon,
                                                > > >
                                                > > > To find a reference one would need to know the Pali word for
                                                > dust-rag.
                                                > > > In
                                                > > > Buddhadatta's English-Pali dictionary I couldn't find an entry
                                                > for
                                                > > > dust-rag
                                                > > > but there is one for duster which I think is pretty much the
                                                > same thing.
                                                > > > The
                                                > > > Pali word for duster is rajohara.na.m. It is found only twice in
                                                > the
                                                > > > Tipitaka in the same sutta, the Sihanada Sutta (AN IX.11). I
                                                > don't have
                                                > > > an
                                                > > > English translation handy and I couldnt't find one online but I
                                                > can see
                                                > > > it
                                                > > > in the Pali. The passage on the duster or dust-rag is found in
                                                > the fifth
                                                > > > simile. Could this be what you have in mind?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Best wishes,
                                                > > > Jim
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > _____________________________________________________________________
                                                > __
                                                > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                                > > Get your free @... address at
                                                > http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                >
                                                >

                                                _______________________________________________________________________
                                                Do You Yahoo!?
                                                Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                                              • Jonothan Abbott
                                                Nina Thanks very much for posting this. I like the sentiment. Being able to accept and appreciate having one s faults pointed out by another is a great asset
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Jun 19, 2002
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Nina

                                                  Thanks very much for posting this. I like the sentiment. Being able to
                                                  accept and appreciate having one's faults pointed out by another is a
                                                  great asset to anyone striving on the path.

                                                  Jon

                                                  PS My apologies for not replying before leaving on the trip to Sri Lanka,
                                                  and a similar apology to several others -- I'm hoping to do some serious
                                                  catching-up over the next week or so

                                                  --- Nina van Gorkom <nilo@...> wrote:
                                                  > Dhammapada, Ch VI, vs 76, 77; (translation of Ven. Narada):
                                                  >
                                                  > 76. Should one see a wise man, who, like a revealer of treasures, points
                                                  out
                                                  > faults and reproves, let one associate with such a wise person; it will
                                                  be
                                                  > better, not worse, for him who associates with such a one.
                                                  > 77. Let him advise, instruct, and dissuade one from evil; truly pleasing
                                                  is
                                                  > he to the good, displeasing is he to the bad.
                                                  >
                                                  > Nina.


                                                  _______________________________________________________________________
                                                  Do You Yahoo!?
                                                  Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.