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[DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Freedom versus determinism

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  • tanarong@econ.cmu.ac.th
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 14, 2000
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    • Robert Kirkpatrick
      Dear Lester, ... hinges ... Robert __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 14, 2000
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        Dear Lester,
        Thanks for the great comments:
        --- > It has struck me that the issue of free will
        hinges
        > around the question
        > rather than the answer: What is it that has or
        > doesn't have freewill? If
        > there is no self to be free or not free then the
        > question of 'freewill'
        > essentially evaporates. There is 'will' but no one
        > to have it or not have
        > it. But, like the Buddha, we need to be careful in
        > talking about such things
        > - the old routine 'Before I thought I had freewill,
        > but now I don't' or
        > 'Before for I thought I didn't have freewill. but
        > now I do.'
        >
        Robert

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      • Lester Wahlqvist
        Dear Thannarong Viboonsunti That was René Descartes (1596-1650) who was a French philosopher and mathematician, usually associated with the idea of dualism
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 15, 2000
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          Dear Thannarong Viboonsunti

          That was René Descartes (1596-1650) who was a French philosopher and
          mathematician, usually associated with the idea of dualism (separation of
          mind and body - which has some interesting parallels with the 'nama' &
          'rupa' story).

          There's a summary of his life and ideas at
          <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5507/descartes.html>
          if you want to follow him up a bit more.

          Happy browsing!

          Lester


          on 15/2/00 8:08 AM, tanarong@... at tanarong@...
          wrote:

          > Lester,
          > Who says 'I think therefore I am' in western philosophy that you mentioned
          > below?
          > ---------------------------
          >
          >
          > At 20:59 14/2/00 +1030, you wrote:
          >> on 14/2/00 5:51 PM, Robert Kirkpatrick at robertkirkpatrick@...
          >> wrote:
          >>
          >>> Dear Group,
          >>> Western Philosophy is divided on the question of
          >>> whether there is free will or whether things are
          >>> determined. Does anyone have any ideas on how to
          >>> relate these western concepts to the way things really
          >>> are - as explained in Buddhism?
          >>> Robert
          >>>
          >>
          >> Hello Robert
          >>
          >> Perhaps some thoughts I've had on this question may help:
          >>
          >> It has struck me that the issue of free will hinges around the question
          >> rather than the answer: What is it that has or doesn't have freewill? If
          >> there is no self to be free or not free then the question of 'freewill'
          >> essentially evaporates. There is 'will' but no one to have it or not have
          >> it. But, like the Buddha, we need to be careful in talking about such things
          >> - the old routine 'Before I thought I had freewill, but now I don't' or
          >> 'Before for I thought I didn't have freewill. but now I do.'
          >>
          >> The possibility of 'no self' is not one that pops up too often in Western
          >> philosophy ('I think therefore I am' and all of that) so there have been
          >> endless complicated efforts in coming to some kind of solution.
          >>
          >> Lester
          >>
          >> --
          >> Lester Wahlqvist
          >> wahl@...
          >>
          >>
          >>
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          > Thannarong Viboonsunti

          --
          Lester Wahlqvist
          wahl@...
        • Ivan Walsh
          ... Prior to discovering the makeup of the atom, western scientists thought they stood on floors. After they found out that the atom was made of almost no
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 15, 2000
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            >Dear Group,
            >Western Philosophy is divided on the question of
            >whether there is free will or whether things are
            >determined. Does anyone have any ideas on how to
            >relate these western concepts to the way things really
            >are - as explained in Buddhism?
            >Robert

            Prior to discovering the makeup of the atom, western scientists thought they
            stood on floors. After they found out that the atom was made of almost no
            matter, they realized they were standing on nothing.
            Western philosophers, or anybody else for that matter, will believe that
            there is free will or that things are determined, until they understand what
            (ultimate realities) these concepts are made of. Then they will realize that
            there is nothing there, neither the concepts nor a self.
            Ivan

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