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Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca

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  • Robert Kirkpatrick
    Dear sarah, Your post made it clear just how hard it is to understand paticcasamupada. You relate it alot to the paccaya in the Patthana and this is my
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 23 4:02 AM
      Dear sarah,
      Your post made it clear just how hard it is to understand
      paticcasamupada. You relate it alot to the paccaya in the
      Patthana and this is my approach too. Of all the aspects of
      Dhamma, paticcasamupada is the hardest for me to intellectually
      grasp. I think it is as you said that only by understandinmg
      realities can we begin to see it. You noted "Yes, Kom, it's a
      good point. Until
      > avijja
      > (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated with
      > the citta
      > from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta
      > (when we say
      > there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those
      > moments as anusaya
      > (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala
      > citta has
      > passed.....
      >
      Even when we have kusala - if it is not of the type that is
      satipatthana there is no understanding of paticasamupada and
      thus the wheel just gets another twist. Tough stuff.
      Robert
      Robert
      --- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@...> wrote: > >
      > > > Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with Robert
      > about
      > > > paticca
      > > > samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had for
      > quite
      > > > a while, but
      > > > I'm not suggesting you do! I used to read about the cycle
      > as
      > > > though it were
      > > > an order of realities taking place. 'First ignorance, then
      > > > clinging, then
      > > > feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to
      > cetasikas
      > > > arising
      > > > together at the same time. Feeling arises with every
      > citta,
      > > > ignorance with
      > > > all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most too!
      > > >
      > > > Dear sarah,
      > >Perhaps you could add more details about this? What are the
      > >paccaya that are co-nascent? We can see this clearly with
      > some
      > >links such as vinnana paccaya nama-rupa (defintely
      > co-nascent)
      > >other links are more difficult to fathom. The
      > paticcasamupadda
      > >is sublime because it is not only referring to the present
      > >moment but also to a longer series, even linking lives.
      > >Robert.
      > >
      > >
      > Robert,
      >
      > here goes!
      >
      > My post above may have been misleading. We know (?) that the
      > paticca
      > samuppada refers to many links and intervals and the
      > conditions which
      > 'decide' what reality will arise at what time are extremely
      > complex. We can
      > only get little glimpses through our studies of paccaya
      > (conditions).
      >
      > One problem, as I see it, is that many people read and study
      > the paticca
      > samuppada with a view to first being aware of say contact,
      > then of say
      > feeling and then of say tanha... following the order of
      > paticca samuppada.
      > Although it is very helpful, at least in theory, to understand
      > these links,
      > in practical terms, we need to understand the characteristics
      > of these and
      > many, many other realities more and more precisely so that
      > awareness and
      > understanding can do their job of being aware and knowing the
      > realities
      > WHEN THEY APPEAR, i.e. not in any special order.
      >
      > It's also important to understand that at any given moment a
      > citta arises
      > with many different cetasikas (even though only one can be
      > known at a time).
      > So while people may think that at one moment there is phassa
      > (contact) and
      > the next moment there is feeling (vedana) and so on, they
      > misunderstand that
      > phassa and vedana arise with EVERY citta. This is not to say
      > that the phassa
      > with the citta at this moment is the cause of the vedana at
      > this moment. If
      > only it were all so simple! For sure there must be sahajata
      > paccaya
      > (conascence condition) for them to arise together and also I'd
      > think
      > annamanna (mutuality) and nissaya (support) condition...but
      > i'd need to give
      > all this more thought! There are also many conditions which
      > would link the
      > phassa now with vedana succeeding it (immediately or later) by
      > pacchajat
      > (postnascence), sampayitta (association), asevana (repetition)
      > conditions
      > and so on. I really find the study of paccaya very
      > fascinating, but I'm only
      > a beginner and not an abhidhamma expert!
      >
      > Kom also added some useful comments on this subject about how
      > paticca
      > samuppada can be used to explain 'dispersed series of citta
      > through last
      > life, this life and next life. And finally, it can be used to
      > explain just a
      > single citta at this moment'. I really think we only begin to
      > get a little
      > glimpse at the meaning of paticca samuppada when there is the
      > development of
      > understanding of realities....otherwise it's very conceptual
      > and usually
      > with mixed up views! Kom also went on to talk about
      > avijja...(sorry, I can't
      > add in his post here)...Yes, Kom, it's a good point. Until
      > avijja
      > (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated with
      > the citta
      > from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta
      > (when we say
      > there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those
      > moments as anusaya
      > (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala
      > citta has
      > passed.....
      >
      > Robert, I'm not sure if this has clarified or confused the
      > matter and I'm
      > not at all sure if I understood and correctly answered yr qu.
      > Pls correct
      > any mistakes! Apologies for the delay. At least Mary will see
      > that some of
      > us are a little slow....
      >
      > Sarah
      >
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    • Sarah Procter Abbott
      ... Robert, here goes! My post above may have been misleading. We know (?) that the paticca samuppada refers to many links and intervals and the conditions
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 23 1:59 PM
        >
        > > Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with Robert about
        > > paticca
        > > samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had for quite
        > > a while, but
        > > I'm not suggesting you do! I used to read about the cycle as
        > > though it were
        > > an order of realities taking place. 'First ignorance, then
        > > clinging, then
        > > feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to cetasikas
        > > arising
        > > together at the same time. Feeling arises with every citta,
        > > ignorance with
        > > all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most too!
        > >
        > > Dear sarah,
        >Perhaps you could add more details about this? What are the
        >paccaya that are co-nascent? We can see this clearly with some
        >links such as vinnana paccaya nama-rupa (defintely co-nascent)
        >other links are more difficult to fathom. The paticcasamupadda
        >is sublime because it is not only referring to the present
        >moment but also to a longer series, even linking lives.
        >Robert.
        >
        >
        Robert,

        here goes!

        My post above may have been misleading. We know (?) that the paticca
        samuppada refers to many links and intervals and the conditions which
        'decide' what reality will arise at what time are extremely complex. We can
        only get little glimpses through our studies of paccaya (conditions).

        One problem, as I see it, is that many people read and study the paticca
        samuppada with a view to first being aware of say contact, then of say
        feeling and then of say tanha... following the order of paticca samuppada.
        Although it is very helpful, at least in theory, to understand these links,
        in practical terms, we need to understand the characteristics of these and
        many, many other realities more and more precisely so that awareness and
        understanding can do their job of being aware and knowing the realities
        WHEN THEY APPEAR, i.e. not in any special order.

        It's also important to understand that at any given moment a citta arises
        with many different cetasikas (even though only one can be known at a time).
        So while people may think that at one moment there is phassa (contact) and
        the next moment there is feeling (vedana) and so on, they misunderstand that
        phassa and vedana arise with EVERY citta. This is not to say that the phassa
        with the citta at this moment is the cause of the vedana at this moment. If
        only it were all so simple! For sure there must be sahajata paccaya
        (conascence condition) for them to arise together and also I'd think
        annamanna (mutuality) and nissaya (support) condition...but i'd need to give
        all this more thought! There are also many conditions which would link the
        phassa now with vedana succeeding it (immediately or later) by pacchajat
        (postnascence), sampayitta (association), asevana (repetition) conditions
        and so on. I really find the study of paccaya very fascinating, but I'm only
        a beginner and not an abhidhamma expert!

        Kom also added some useful comments on this subject about how paticca
        samuppada can be used to explain 'dispersed series of citta through last
        life, this life and next life. And finally, it can be used to explain just a
        single citta at this moment'. I really think we only begin to get a little
        glimpse at the meaning of paticca samuppada when there is the development of
        understanding of realities....otherwise it's very conceptual and usually
        with mixed up views! Kom also went on to talk about avijja...(sorry, I can't
        add in his post here)...Yes, Kom, it's a good point. Until avijja
        (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated with the citta
        from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta (when we say
        there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those moments as anusaya
        (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala citta has
        passed.....

        Robert, I'm not sure if this has clarified or confused the matter and I'm
        not at all sure if I understood and correctly answered yr qu. Pls correct
        any mistakes! Apologies for the delay. At least Mary will see that some of
        us are a little slow....

        Sarah
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      • Kom Tukovinit
        Dear Sarah, Thanks for elaborating on pacaya here: this is a subject that really brings anatta, immense complexity of citta and cetasika, and Buddha s panna
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 23 11:52 PM
          Dear Sarah,

          Thanks for elaborating on pacaya here: this is a subject that really
          brings anatta, immense complexity of citta and cetasika, and Buddha's
          panna into the spotlight. I am just beginning to grasp how complex all
          the conditions are. Based on A. Sujin's explanation of pacayas (and my
          understandings---all errors are from me...), I am counting the
          followings:

          for vedana and phassa arising with the single citta:

          vedana is a pacaya for phassa in the following ways:
          sahajata (conascence condition)
          sampayutta (association)
          annamanna (mutuality)
          nisaya (support)
          indariya (chief in its functions?)
          atti (still there?)
          avicata (not gone yet?)
          possibly vipaka (results)

          phassa is a pacaya for vedana in the following ways:
          sahajata (conascence condition)
          sampayutta (association)
          annamanna (mutuality)
          nisaya (support)
          ahara (brings forth results?)
          atti (still there?)
          avicata (not gone yet?)
          possibly vipaka (results)

          phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa
          possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object)
          possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara)
          possibly asevana (repeating in javana)
          possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise)
          possibly aramana (as sense object)
          possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?)
          possibly natti (not there?)
          possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?)

          I am puzzled about your explanation of phassa as a pacaya for vedana
          arising after the phassa in the following ways:
          pacchajat (postnascence),
          sampayitta (association)

          As I understand, only nama can be a pachajata pacaya for a rupa that
          arises before it, and only namas arising at the same time can be
          sampayutta pacaya of each other. Would you please elaborate?

          Thanks again for elaborating. I am in process of trying to learn more
          about pacaya.

          kom

          --- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@...> wrote:

          >This is not to say that the
          > phassa
          > with the citta at this moment is the cause of the vedana at this
          > moment. If
          > only it were all so simple! For sure there must be sahajata paccaya
          > (conascence condition) for them to arise together and also I'd think
          > annamanna (mutuality) and nissaya (support) condition...but i'd need
          > to give
          > all this more thought! There are also many conditions which would
          > link the
          > phassa now with vedana succeeding it (immediately or later) by
          > pacchajat
          > (postnascence), sampayitta (association), asevana (repetition)
          > conditions
          > and so on. I really find the study of paccaya very fascinating, but
          > I'm only
          > a beginner and not an abhidhamma expert!
          >
          > Kom also added some useful comments on this subject about how paticca
          >
          > samuppada can be used to explain 'dispersed series of citta through
          > last
          > life, this life and next life. And finally, it can be used to explain
          > just a
          > single citta at this moment'. I really think we only begin to get a
          > little
          > glimpse at the meaning of paticca samuppada when there is the
          > development of
          > understanding of realities....otherwise it's very conceptual and
          > usually
          > with mixed up views! Kom also went on to talk about avijja...(sorry,
          > I can't
          > add in his post here)...Yes, Kom, it's a good point. Until avijja
          > (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated with the
          > citta
          > from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta (when we
          > say
          > there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those moments as
          > anusaya
          > (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala citta has
          > passed.....
          >
          > Robert, I'm not sure if this has clarified or confused the matter and
          > I'm
          > not at all sure if I understood and correctly answered yr qu. Pls
          > correct
          > any mistakes! Apologies for the delay. At least Mary will see that
          > some of
          > us are a little slow....
          >
          > Sarah
          >
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        • Robert Kirkpatrick
          Dear Kom, I know very little about these most complex matters but I know they are very important. I appreciate you bringing them up with Amara and i might call
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 24 5:01 AM
            Dear Kom,
            I know very little about these most complex matters but I know
            they are very important. I appreciate you bringing them up with
            Amara and i might call on you from time to time (if you don't
            mind) to help out with this sort of analysis. It really is as
            close as one can get to dismantling the idea of self at the
            intellectual level. A real support for direct understanding.
            Anumodana
            Robert
            --- Kom Tukovinit <kom@...> wrote: > Dear Sarah,
            >
            > Thanks for elaborating on pacaya here: this is a subject that
            > really
            > brings anatta, immense complexity of citta and cetasika, and
            > Buddha's
            > panna into the spotlight. I am just beginning to grasp how
            > complex all
            > the conditions are. Based on A. Sujin's explanation of
            > pacayas (and my
            > understandings---all errors are from me...), I am counting the
            > followings:
            >
            > for vedana and phassa arising with the single citta:
            >
            > vedana is a pacaya for phassa in the following ways:
            > sahajata (conascence condition)
            > sampayutta (association)
            > annamanna (mutuality)
            > nisaya (support)
            > indariya (chief in its functions?)
            > atti (still there?)
            > avicata (not gone yet?)
            > possibly vipaka (results)
            >
            > phassa is a pacaya for vedana in the following ways:
            > sahajata (conascence condition)
            > sampayutta (association)
            > annamanna (mutuality)
            > nisaya (support)
            > ahara (brings forth results?)
            > atti (still there?)
            > avicata (not gone yet?)
            > possibly vipaka (results)
            >
            > phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa
            > possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object)
            > possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara)
            > possibly asevana (repeating in javana)
            > possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise)
            > possibly aramana (as sense object)
            > possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?)
            > possibly natti (not there?)
            > possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?)
            >
            > I am puzzled about your explanation of phassa as a pacaya for
            > vedana
            > arising after the phassa in the following ways:
            > pacchajat (postnascence),
            > sampayitta (association)
            >
            > As I understand, only nama can be a pachajata pacaya for a
            > rupa that
            > arises before it, and only namas arising at the same time can
            > be
            > sampayutta pacaya of each other. Would you please elaborate?
            >
            > Thanks again for elaborating. I am in process of trying to
            > learn more
            > about pacaya.
            >
            > kom
            >
            > --- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@...> wrote:
            >
            > >This is not to say that the
            > > phassa
            > > with the citta at this moment is the cause of the vedana at
            > this
            > > moment. If
            > > only it were all so simple! For sure there must be sahajata
            > paccaya
            > > (conascence condition) for them to arise together and also
            > I'd think
            > > annamanna (mutuality) and nissaya (support) condition...but
            > i'd need
            > > to give
            > > all this more thought! There are also many conditions which
            > would
            > > link the
            > > phassa now with vedana succeeding it (immediately or later)
            > by
            > > pacchajat
            > > (postnascence), sampayitta (association), asevana
            > (repetition)
            > > conditions
            > > and so on. I really find the study of paccaya very
            > fascinating, but
            > > I'm only
            > > a beginner and not an abhidhamma expert!
            > >
            > > Kom also added some useful comments on this subject about
            > how paticca
            > >
            > > samuppada can be used to explain 'dispersed series of citta
            > through
            > > last
            > > life, this life and next life. And finally, it can be used
            > to explain
            > > just a
            > > single citta at this moment'. I really think we only begin
            > to get a
            > > little
            > > glimpse at the meaning of paticca samuppada when there is
            > the
            > > development of
            > > understanding of realities....otherwise it's very conceptual
            > and
            > > usually
            > > with mixed up views! Kom also went on to talk about
            > avijja...(sorry,
            > > I can't
            > > add in his post here)...Yes, Kom, it's a good point. Until
            > avijja
            > > (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated
            > with the
            > > citta
            > > from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta
            > (when we
            > > say
            > > there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those
            > moments as
            > > anusaya
            > > (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala
            > citta has
            > > passed.....
            > >
            > > Robert, I'm not sure if this has clarified or confused the
            > matter and
            > > I'm
            > > not at all sure if I understood and correctly answered yr
            > qu. Pls
            > > correct
            > > any mistakes! Apologies for the delay. At least Mary will
            > see that
            > > some of
            > > us are a little slow....
            > >
            > > Sarah
            > >
            >
            _________________________________________________________________________
            > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
            > > http://www.hotmail.com
            > >
            > > Share information about yourself, create your own public
            > profile at
            > > http://profiles.msn.com
            > >
            > >
            > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
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          • kom@alum.mit.edu
            Dear Robert, I do not at all mind discussing the matters, as I am trying to learn more about it. It will be harder to give textual sources: all the materials
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 24 10:13 AM
              Dear Robert,

              I do not at all mind discussing the matters, as I am trying to learn
              more
              about it. It will be harder to give textual sources: all the
              materials I have
              are now 1) one book collecting A. Sujin's teachings, 2) one book as
              collected by A. Santi, 3) recordings of 2-year (???) worth of
              discussions
              by A. Santi, and 4) parichet discussing pacaya of which the
              difficulty is
              beyond my range. I have not seen any texts written by Nina. Maybe
              Khun Amara can point us to a common English source that we can
              discuss?

              kom
              --- In dhammastudygroup@egroups.com, Robert Kirkpatrick
              <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
              > Dear Kom,
              > I know very little about these most complex matters but I know
              > they are very important. I appreciate you bringing them up with
              > Amara and i might call on you from time to time (if you don't
              > mind) to help out with this sort of analysis. It really is as
              > close as one can get to dismantling the idea of self at the
              > intellectual level. A real support for direct understanding.
              > Anumodana
              > Robert
            • amara chay
              ... Dear Kom, Have you seen the material in the Beginner and Intermediat sections of the website ? There are some books and
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 24 10:38 AM
                > I have not seen any texts written by Nina. Maybe
                > Khun Amara can point us to a common English source that we can
                > discuss?

                Dear Kom,

                Have you seen the material in the Beginner and Intermediat sections
                of the website <http://www.DhammaStudy.com>? There are some books
                and several articles by Nina, and there are at least two books not
                in the web that either Robert or I could send you, in fact one is in
                the page called precisely 'Free Book' in the site.

                By the way, could you comment on the 'near enemy' issue for us? I
                would love to hear some more details if possible,

                Thanks in advance,

                Amara
              • kom@alum.mit.edu
                Dear Khun Amara, Unfortunately, my studying in the near enemy area is virtually non- existence. I only know we are fooled easily by the similar vedana arising
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 24 2:58 PM
                  Dear Khun Amara,

                  Unfortunately, my studying in the near enemy area is virtually non-
                  existence. I only know we are fooled easily by the similar vedana
                  arising
                  in both kusala and akusala, and there are warnings written in the
                  text
                  about "what to do" and "what not to do" when it comes to meta
                  development because of the cheats. The posting here was the most
                  comprehensive I have read (anumodhana). I honestly thought it was
                  talking about me!!!

                  I was going through the www.DhammaStudy.com looking for materials
                  specific to pacaya, but couldn't find any. Do you know of any
                  published
                  English texts that discusses the intricacies of the 24 pacaya (or 52,
                  with
                  expansions)?

                  Thanks.

                  kom
                  --- In dhammastudygroup@egroups.com, "amara chay" <joychay@h...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > > I have not seen any texts written by Nina. Maybe
                  > > Khun Amara can point us to a common English source that we can
                  > > discuss?
                  >
                  > Dear Kom,
                  >
                  > Have you seen the material in the Beginner and Intermediat sections
                  > of the website <http://www.DhammaStudy.com>? There are some
                  books
                  > and several articles by Nina, and there are at least two books not
                  > in the web that either Robert or I could send you, in fact one is
                  in
                  > the page called precisely 'Free Book' in the site.
                  >
                  > By the way, could you comment on the 'near enemy' issue for us? I
                  > would love to hear some more details if possible,
                • m. nease
                  Dear Kom, Sorry to keep butting into your posts, but re. cheats , ... I had the same feeling. And really, it WAS talking about me , wasn t it? Anumodana, mn
                  Message 8 of 23 , Oct 24 3:19 PM
                    Dear Kom,

                    Sorry to keep butting into your posts, but re.
                    'cheats',

                    --- kom@... wrote:

                    > I honestly
                    > thought it was
                    > talking about me!!!

                    I had the same feeling. And really, it WAS talking
                    about "me", wasn't it?

                    Anumodana,

                    mn



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                  • Robert Kirkpatrick
                    Dear Kom, have you read Nina van Gorkoms book Conditions? This is an intoduction to the 24 paccaya in the Patthana. It is very readable. you can download it at
                    Message 9 of 23 , Oct 24 4:35 PM
                      Dear Kom,
                      have you read Nina van Gorkoms book Conditions? This is an
                      intoduction to the 24 paccaya in the Patthana. It is very
                      readable. you can download it at www.zolag.co.uk
                      robert
                      >
                      > I was going through the www.DhammaStudy.com looking for
                      > materials
                      > specific to pacaya, but couldn't find any. Do you know of any
                      > published
                      > English texts that discusses the intricacies of the 24 pacaya
                      > (or 52,
                      > with
                      > expansions)?
                      >
                      > Thanks.
                      >
                      > kom
                      > --- In dhammastudygroup@egroups.com, "amara chay"
                      > <joychay@h...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > I have not seen any texts written by Nina. Maybe
                      > > > Khun Amara can point us to a common English source that we
                      > can
                      > > > discuss?
                      > >
                      > > Dear Kom,
                      > >
                      > > Have you seen the material in the Beginner and Intermediat
                      > sections
                      > > of the website <http://www.DhammaStudy.com>? There are some
                      >
                      > books
                      > > and several articles by Nina, and there are at least two
                      > books not
                      > > in the web that either Robert or I could send you, in fact
                      > one is
                      > in
                      > > the page called precisely 'Free Book' in the site.
                      > >
                      > > By the way, could you comment on the 'near enemy' issue for
                      > us? I
                      > > would love to hear some more details if possible,
                      >
                      >
                      >


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                    • Kom Tukovinit
                      Thanks Robert!!! http://www.zolag.co.uk/condf.pdf ... Dear Kom, have you read Nina van Gorkoms book Conditions? This is an
                      Message 10 of 23 , Oct 24 5:33 PM
                        Thanks Robert!!!

                        http://www.zolag.co.uk/condf.pdf

                        --- Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@...> wrote:

                        <HR>
                        <html><body>
                        <tt>
                        <BR>
                        Dear Kom,<BR>
                        have you read Nina van Gorkoms book Conditions? This is an<BR>
                        intoduction to the 24 paccaya in the Patthana. It is very<BR>
                        readable. you can download it at www.zolag.co.uk<BR>
                        robert<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > I was going through the www.DhammaStudy.com looking for<BR>
                        > materials <BR>
                        > specific to pacaya, but couldn't find any.  Do you know of
                        any<BR>
                        > published <BR>
                        > English texts that discusses the intricacies of the 24 pacaya<BR>
                        > (or 52,<BR>
                        > with <BR>
                        > expansions)?<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > Thanks.<BR>
                        > <BR>
                        > kom<BR>



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                      • m. nease
                        ... Thanks, Sarah, understood... ... Don t all the links arise with every citta? ... ...all extremely interesting, but WAY over my head, for now... ... I do
                        Message 11 of 23 , Oct 24 5:45 PM
                          --- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@...> wrote:

                          > My post above may have been misleading. We know (?)
                          > that the paticca
                          > samuppada refers to many links and intervals and the
                          > conditions which
                          > 'decide' what reality will arise at what time are
                          > extremely complex. We can
                          > only get little glimpses through our studies of
                          > paccaya (conditions).
                          >
                          > One problem, as I see it, is that many people read
                          > and study the paticca
                          > samuppada with a view to first being aware of say
                          > contact, then of say
                          > feeling and then of say tanha... following the order
                          > of paticca samuppada.
                          > Although it is very helpful, at least in theory, to
                          > understand these links,
                          > in practical terms, we need to understand the
                          > characteristics of these and
                          > many, many other realities more and more precisely
                          > so that awareness and
                          > understanding can do their job of being aware and
                          > knowing the realities
                          > WHEN THEY APPEAR, i.e. not in any special order.

                          Thanks, Sarah, understood...

                          > It's also important to understand that at any given
                          > moment a citta arises
                          > with many different cetasikas (even though only one
                          > can be known at a time).
                          > So while people may think that at one moment there
                          > is phassa (contact) and
                          > the next moment there is feeling (vedana) and so on,
                          > they misunderstand that
                          > phassa and vedana arise with EVERY citta.

                          Don't all the links arise with every citta?

                          > This is
                          > not to say that the phassa
                          > with the citta at this moment is the cause of the
                          > vedana at this moment. If
                          > only it were all so simple! For sure there must be
                          > sahajata paccaya
                          > (conascence condition) for them to arise together
                          > and also I'd think
                          > annamanna (mutuality) and nissaya (support)
                          > condition...but i'd need to give
                          > all this more thought! There are also many
                          > conditions which would link the
                          > phassa now with vedana succeeding it (immediately or
                          > later) by pacchajat
                          > (postnascence), sampayitta (association), asevana
                          > (repetition) conditions
                          > and so on. I really find the study of paccaya very
                          > fascinating, but I'm only
                          > a beginner and not an abhidhamma expert!

                          ...all extremely interesting, but WAY over my head,
                          for now...

                          > Kom also added some useful comments on this subject
                          > about how paticca
                          > samuppada can be used to explain 'dispersed series
                          > of citta through last
                          > life, this life and next life. And finally, it can
                          > be used to explain just a
                          > single citta at this moment'.

                          I do have an inkling of this...

                          > I really think we only
                          > begin to get a little
                          > glimpse at the meaning of paticca samuppada when
                          > there is the development of
                          > understanding of realities....otherwise it's very
                          > conceptual and usually
                          > with mixed up views! Kom also went on to talk about
                          > avijja...(sorry, I can't
                          > add in his post here)...Yes, Kom, it's a good point.
                          > Until avijja
                          > (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there,
                          > accumulated with the citta
                          > from one moment to the next. Even at moments of
                          > kusala citta (when we say
                          > there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at
                          > those moments as anusaya
                          > (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the
                          > kusala citta has
                          > passed.....

                          Understood! (thanks to you all)...

                          > Robert, I'm not sure if this has clarified or
                          > confused the matter and I'm
                          > not at all sure if I understood and correctly
                          > answered yr qu. Pls correct
                          > any mistakes! Apologies for the delay. At least Mary
                          > will see that some of
                          > us are a little slow....

                          Thanks, Sarah, as always,

                          mn

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                        • m. nease
                          Robert, thanks for the tip on Zolag! I didn t know this material was out there (not like I don t have more than enough to keep me swamped...) I think I m
                          Message 12 of 23 , Oct 24 8:06 PM
                            Robert, thanks for the tip on Zolag! I didn't know
                            this material was out there (not like I don't have
                            more than enough to keep me swamped...)

                            I think I'm still pretty much the new guy, but I
                            wonder if anyone else is unaware of this resource?

                            --- Robert Kirkpatrick
                            <robertkirkpatrick@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Kom,
                            > have you read Nina van Gorkoms book Conditions? This
                            > is an
                            > intoduction to the 24 paccaya in the Patthana. It is
                            > very
                            > readable. you can download it at www.zolag.co.uk
                            > robert
                            > >
                            > > I was going through the www.DhammaStudy.com
                            > looking for
                            > > materials
                            > > specific to pacaya, but couldn't find any. Do you
                            > know of any
                            > > published
                            > > English texts that discusses the intricacies of
                            > the 24 pacaya
                            > > (or 52,
                            > > with
                            > > expansions)?
                            > >
                            > > Thanks.
                            > >
                            > > kom
                            > > --- In dhammastudygroup@egroups.com, "amara chay"
                            > > <joychay@h...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > I have not seen any texts written by Nina.
                            > Maybe
                            > > > > Khun Amara can point us to a common English
                            > source that we
                            > > can
                            > > > > discuss?
                            > > >
                            > > > Dear Kom,
                            > > >
                            > > > Have you seen the material in the Beginner and
                            > Intermediat
                            > > sections
                            > > > of the website <http://www.DhammaStudy.com>?
                            > There are some
                            > >
                            > > books
                            > > > and several articles by Nina, and there are at
                            > least two
                            > > books not
                            > > > in the web that either Robert or I could send
                            > you, in fact
                            > > one is
                            > > in
                            > > > the page called precisely 'Free Book' in the
                            > site.
                            > > >
                            > > > By the way, could you comment on the 'near
                            > enemy' issue for
                            > > us? I
                            > > > would love to hear some more details if
                            > possible,
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > __________________________________________________
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                            > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
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                          • Robert Kirkpatrick
                            ... dear sarah, venerable narada of Burma wrote a very good intoduction to his translation of the patthana (PTS) This is called Guide to conditional Relations
                            Message 13 of 23 , Oct 25 3:02 AM
                              --- > >kom
                              >
                              > I think
                              > in English there is just Nina's paccaya and then back to the
                              > Patthana in the
                              > Abhid. which Robert has studied more than me for sure! (maybe
                              > in Cambodia).
                              > Sarah
                              >
                              dear sarah,
                              venerable narada of Burma wrote a very good intoduction to his
                              translation of the patthana (PTS) This is called Guide to
                              conditional Relations and is also published by the the Pali text
                              society. There are outlines around by Mogok sayadaw and Ledi
                              sayadaw but these are very short. Even Nina's full-length book
                              is too brief for this deepest of the Dhamma. Studying the
                              Patthana directly is difficult becuase there is no English
                              translation of the commentary yet (and is not likely to be in
                              the near future) Kom or Amara perhaps you would like to try
                              translating khun Sujin's many talks on this topic. I will be
                              very grateful (and would promise to help out with editing) if
                              this was ever done. (SO much to do, so little time)
                              robert

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                            • Sarah Procter Abbott
                              Dear Kom, ... you kindly picked me up in another message with regard to the paccaya I had mentioned (I can t find the post on the list for now). I agree with
                              Message 14 of 23 , Oct 25 2:41 PM
                                Dear Kom,

                                >From: kom@...
                                >
                                >Dear Robert,
                                >
                                >I do not at all mind discussing the matters, as I am trying to learn
                                >more
                                >about it. It will be harder to give textual sources: all the
                                >materials I have
                                >are now 1) one book collecting A. Sujin's teachings, 2) one book as
                                >collected by A. Santi, 3) recordings of 2-year (???) worth of
                                >discussions
                                >by A. Santi, and 4) parichet discussing pacaya of which the
                                >difficulty is
                                >beyond my range. I have not seen any texts written by Nina. Maybe
                                >Khun Amara can point us to a common English source that we can
                                >discuss?
                                >
                                >kom

                                you kindly picked me up in another message with regard to the paccaya I had
                                mentioned (I can't find the post on the list for now). I agree with the
                                comment about asociation (sampayutta) and just for now I forget the other
                                but I'm sure you'd be right as you've considered this qu in far more detail
                                than I have. Thank you very much, I may come back to it later. Yes, I think
                                in English there is just Nina's paccaya and then back to the Patthana in the
                                Abhid. which Robert has studied more than me for sure! (maybe in Cambodia).

                                I also really appreciate yr very knowledgeable responses. Pls do quote from
                                KSujin's and Santi's books and recordings in Thai as appropriate.
                                Many thanks for yr help.

                                Sarah
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                              • Kom Tukovinit
                                Dear Sarah, Thanks for bringing up this discussion again. As before, I am still trying to learn what they are all about, and any kind of discussions always
                                Message 15 of 23 , Oct 30 9:16 AM
                                  Dear Sarah,

                                  Thanks for bringing up this discussion again. As before, I am still
                                  trying to
                                  learn what they are all about, and any kind of discussions always bring
                                  up
                                  good points.

                                  I am sorry for the sloppy pali and english mix-up that I had; I still
                                  haven't
                                  looked at Nina's materials (have them on my computer now; thanks to
                                  Robert), so I still don't know the right spellings. The "nisaya" that
                                  was in
                                  my earlier post, as below, is in fact a detailed classification of
                                  "upanissaya"
                                  pacaya: a mile apart from what my posting implied. There are three
                                  detailed classification:
                                  Aramanuapanissaya pacaya: upanissaya as sense object
                                  Anatarupanissaya pacaya: upanissaya in the same way as anatara pacaya
                                  Pakatupanissaya pacaya: upanissaya as something that gets accumulated
                                  (???: I will search more on this for a better translation).

                                  Therefore, for phassa being pacaya for the vedana arising after it, it
                                  is not a
                                  nissaya pacaya, but it is a upanissaya pacaya.

                                  For the reference materials that I have regarding Nissaya pacaya, there
                                  are
                                  only three detailed classifications:
                                  > 1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya
                                  > (base-object-prenascence-dependence0
                                  > 2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence)
                                  > 3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence)

                                  I don't have the fourth one in the materials, and my understanding of
                                  pali is
                                  so superficial that I can't even guess what the fourth one is:
                                  > 4.-sahajata-purwejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence)
                                  I would really appreciate it if you elaborate on the 4th.

                                  Thanks for the explanation for the pali: they are most helpful.

                                  I will search Nina's book to see if I can find more English references
                                  to
                                  Pacatupanissaya pacaya.

                                  Anumodhanna.

                                  ps: I have heard the recorded materials (by A. Santi) that mentioned
                                  that
                                  the hetu pacaya was mentioned first because of its importance. I don't

                                  remember how he justified that statements. My interpretation (please
                                  be
                                  careful) is that the javana cittas are constantly accumulating the
                                  hetus, both
                                  kusala and aksuala, and could cause patisanthi (rebirth) (with other
                                  pacaya
                                  also in play, of course) as either Kusala, akusala, or ahetuka vipaka
                                  further
                                  conditioning the opportunity and possibilities of accumulating panna in
                                  the
                                  the resulted life.

                                  --- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@...> wrote:
                                  > >phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa
                                  > >possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object)
                                  > >possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara)
                                  > >possibly asevana (repeating in javana)
                                  > >possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise)
                                  > >possibly aramana (as sense object)
                                  > >possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?)
                                  > >possibly natti (not there?)
                                  > >possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?)
                                  > >
                                  > 1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya
                                  > (base-object-prenascence-dependence0
                                  > 2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence)
                                  > 3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence)
                                  > 4.-sahajata-purwejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence)
                                  >
                                  > 1. can only be heartbase
                                  > 2. arising together and dependent on
                                  > 3. conditioning statew must be a material base
                                  > 4. a mix up
                                  >
                                  > pls explain what you had in mind as I know you've studied
                                  > v.carefully.
                                  >

                                  > One more qu. if you don't mind. Have you heard any discussion about
                                  > the
                                  > particular ofer of conditions....Is hetu 1st because it is considered
                                  > the
                                  > most important? Robert or Amara may have heard sth on this too.
                                  >


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                                • Sarah Procter Abbott
                                  Dear Kom, ... o.k. I ve been prompted (read shamed) to do a little more study on paccaya...yr detailed reply deserved it, so had a stint by the swimmingpool
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Oct 30 1:05 PM
                                    Dear Kom,

                                    >From: Kom Tukovinit <kom@...>
                                    >
                                    >Dear Sarah,
                                    >
                                    >Thanks for elaborating on pacaya here: this is a subject that really
                                    >brings anatta, immense complexity of citta and cetasika, and Buddha's
                                    >panna into the spotlight. I am just beginning to grasp how complex all
                                    >the conditions are. Based on A. Sujin's explanation of pacayas (and my
                                    >understandings---all errors are from me...), I am counting the
                                    >followings:
                                    >
                                    >for vedana and phassa arising with the single citta:
                                    >
                                    >vedana is a pacaya for phassa in the following ways:
                                    >sahajata (conascence condition)
                                    >sampayutta (association)
                                    >annamanna (mutuality)
                                    >nisaya (support)
                                    >indariya (chief in its functions?)
                                    >atti (still there?)
                                    >avicata (not gone yet?)
                                    >possibly vipaka (results)
                                    >
                                    >phassa is a pacaya for vedana in the following ways:
                                    >sahajata (conascence condition)
                                    >sampayutta (association)
                                    >annamanna (mutuality)
                                    >nisaya (support)
                                    >ahara (brings forth results?)
                                    >atti (still there?)
                                    >avicata (not gone yet?)
                                    >possibly vipaka (results)
                                    >
                                    >phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa
                                    >possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object)
                                    >possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara)
                                    >possibly asevana (repeating in javana)
                                    >possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise)
                                    >possibly aramana (as sense object)
                                    >possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?)
                                    >possibly natti (not there?)
                                    >possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?)
                                    >

                                    o.k. I've been prompted (read shamed) to do a little more study on
                                    paccaya...yr detailed reply deserved it, so had a stint by the swimmingpool
                                    with my Guide to Patthana (PTS) which as Robert said, is v.helpful, but
                                    still doesn't give me all the answers...

                                    I agree with most of the above (read at a very intellectual level either
                                    agree or can't find sufficient reason to disagree!).

                                    now I hav a queery about nissaya just above related to phassa as pacaya for
                                    vedana arising after phassa. Accord. to The Guide, there are 4 kinds of
                                    nissaya, i.e.
                                    1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya (base-object-prenascence-dependence0
                                    2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence)
                                    3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence)
                                    4.-sahajata-purwejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence)

                                    1. can only be heartbase
                                    2. arising together and dependent on
                                    3. conditioning statew must be a material base
                                    4. a mix up

                                    pls explain what you had in mind as I know you've studied v.carefully.

                                    >I am puzzled about your explanation of phassa as a pacaya for vedana
                                    >arising after the phassa in the following ways:
                                    >pacchajat (postnascence),
                                    >sampayitta (association)
                                    >
                                    >As I understand, only nama can be a pachajata pacaya for a rupa that
                                    >arises before it, and only namas arising at the same time can be
                                    >sampayutta pacaya of each other. Would you please elaborate?
                                    >
                                    You are quite right about pacchajata- I had confused it with another. This
                                    is a very difficult condition for me to understand, but yr prompting me to
                                    spend time with the Guide has made it clearer. I especially liked an analogy
                                    used of vultures which, unlike other birds, eat all the food they find and
                                    don't bring any back to the chicks. they have to be encouraged to crave for
                                    the taste on a daily basis until they learn to fly...i.e. the craving
                                    supports them so they don't die of hunger ( read, I still have to do mental
                                    gymnastics to kind of get it!)

                                    >Thanks again for elaborating. I am in process of trying to learn more
                                    >about pacaya.
                                    >
                                    >kom

                                    Thank you, Kom, pls keep encouraging my study (read very intellectual study
                                    at best). But you know, a little seeps in and as R. said before, it goes to
                                    the heart of the anattaness of realities.

                                    One more qu. if you don't mind. Have you heard any discussion about the
                                    particular ofer of conditions....Is hetu 1st because it is considered the
                                    most important? Robert or Amara may have heard sth on this too.

                                    Sorry for being so slow.....I'm busy and needed a little lull in posts to
                                    read up!

                                    Sarah
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                                  • Sarah Procter Abbott
                                    Dear Kom, ... o.k. I ve been prompted (read shamed) to do a little more study on paccaya...yr detailed reply deserved it, so had a stint by the swimmingpool
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Oct 30 1:05 PM
                                      Dear Kom,

                                      >From: Kom Tukovinit <kom@...>
                                      >
                                      >Dear Sarah,
                                      >
                                      >Thanks for elaborating on pacaya here: this is a subject that really
                                      >brings anatta, immense complexity of citta and cetasika, and Buddha's
                                      >panna into the spotlight. I am just beginning to grasp how complex all
                                      >the conditions are. Based on A. Sujin's explanation of pacayas (and my
                                      >understandings---all errors are from me...), I am counting the
                                      >followings:
                                      >
                                      >for vedana and phassa arising with the single citta:
                                      >
                                      >vedana is a pacaya for phassa in the following ways:
                                      >sahajata (conascence condition)
                                      >sampayutta (association)
                                      >annamanna (mutuality)
                                      >nisaya (support)
                                      >indariya (chief in its functions?)
                                      >atti (still there?)
                                      >avicata (not gone yet?)
                                      >possibly vipaka (results)
                                      >
                                      >phassa is a pacaya for vedana in the following ways:
                                      >sahajata (conascence condition)
                                      >sampayutta (association)
                                      >annamanna (mutuality)
                                      >nisaya (support)
                                      >ahara (brings forth results?)
                                      >atti (still there?)
                                      >avicata (not gone yet?)
                                      >possibly vipaka (results)
                                      >
                                      >phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa
                                      >possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object)
                                      >possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara)
                                      >possibly asevana (repeating in javana)
                                      >possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise)
                                      >possibly aramana (as sense object)
                                      >possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?)
                                      >possibly natti (not there?)
                                      >possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?)
                                      >

                                      o.k. I've been prompted (read shamed) to do a little more study on
                                      paccaya...yr detailed reply deserved it, so had a stint by the swimmingpool
                                      with my Guide to Patthana (PTS) which as Robert said, is v.helpful, but
                                      still doesn't give me all the answers...

                                      I agree with most of the above (read at a very intellectual level either
                                      agree or can't find sufficient reason to disagree!).

                                      now I hav a queery about nissaya just above related to phassa as pacaya for
                                      vedana arising after phassa. Accord. to The Guide, there are 4 kinds of
                                      nissaya, i.e.
                                      1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya (base-object-prenascence-dependence0
                                      2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence)
                                      3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence)
                                      4.-sahajata-purwejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence)

                                      1. can only be heartbase
                                      2. arising together and dependent on
                                      3. conditioning statew must be a material base
                                      4. a mix up

                                      pls explain what you had in mind as I know you've studied v.carefully.

                                      >I am puzzled about your explanation of phassa as a pacaya for vedana
                                      >arising after the phassa in the following ways:
                                      >pacchajat (postnascence),
                                      >sampayitta (association)
                                      >
                                      >As I understand, only nama can be a pachajata pacaya for a rupa that
                                      >arises before it, and only namas arising at the same time can be
                                      >sampayutta pacaya of each other. Would you please elaborate?
                                      >
                                      You are quite right about pacchajata- I had confused it with another. This
                                      is a very difficult condition for me to understand, but yr prompting me to
                                      spend time with the Guide has made it clearer. I especially liked an analogy
                                      used of vultures which, unlike other birds, eat all the food they find and
                                      don't bring any back to the chicks. they have to be encouraged to crave for
                                      the taste on a daily basis until they learn to fly...i.e. the craving
                                      supports them so they don't die of hunger ( read, I still have to do mental
                                      gymnastics to kind of get it!)

                                      >Thanks again for elaborating. I am in process of trying to learn more
                                      >about pacaya.
                                      >
                                      >kom

                                      Thank you, Kom, pls keep encouraging my study (read very intellectual study
                                      at best). But you know, a little seeps in and as R. said before, it goes to
                                      the heart of the anattaness of realities.

                                      One more qu. if you don't mind. Have you heard any discussion about the
                                      particular ofer of conditions....Is hetu 1st because it is considered the
                                      most important? Robert or Amara may have heard sth on this too.

                                      Sorry for being so slow.....I'm busy and needed a little lull in posts to
                                      read up!

                                      Sarah
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                                    • Kom Tukovinit
                                      Dear Sarah, Here s what from NVG s Conditions (Chapter 8, page 67 [thanks to Roberts]) about pakatupanissaya-paccaya. pakatúpanissaya-paccaya. With regard to
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Oct 31 11:44 PM
                                        Dear Sarah,

                                        Here's what from NVG's Conditions (Chapter 8, page 67 [thanks to
                                        Roberts]) about pakatupanissaya-paccaya.

                                        pakat�panissaya-paccaya. With regard to the third
                                        decisive support-condition, pakat�panissaya-paccaya, the commentary
                                        to the �Pa��h�na� (the Pa�cappakara�atthakath�) explains the term
                                        �pakata� in pakat�panissaya. Pakata means done properly, done
                                        thoroughly. Kusala and akusala which were �done thoroughly�, often
                                        performed, can become firmly accumulated, they can become habitual.
                                        In this way they are a cogent reason, a powerful inducement for the
                                        arising of kusala and akusala later on, which are the dhammas
                                        conditioned by them, the paccayupanna dhammas. Also external
                                        conditions, such as temperature, food, dwelling place and friends one
                                        associates with can be cogent reasons for the dhammas which they
                                        cause to arise.

                                        I couldn't find the commentary related to my earlier saying about A.
                                        Santi's teaching the importance of hetu paccaya, so I would classify my
                                        earlier comments as being highly suspicious.

                                        --- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@...> wrote:
                                        > Dear Kom,
                                        >
                                        > >From: Kom Tukovinit <kom@...>
                                        > >
                                        > >Dear Sarah,
                                        > >
                                        > >Thanks for elaborating on pacaya here: this is a subject that really
                                        > >brings anatta, immense complexity of citta and cetasika, and
                                        > Buddha's
                                        > >panna into the spotlight. I am just beginning to grasp how complex
                                        > all
                                        > >the conditions are. Based on A. Sujin's explanation of pacayas (and
                                        > my
                                        > >understandings---all errors are from me...), I am counting the
                                        > >followings:
                                        > >
                                        > >for vedana and phassa arising with the single citta:
                                        > >
                                        > >vedana is a pacaya for phassa in the following ways:
                                        > >sahajata (conascence condition)
                                        > >sampayutta (association)
                                        > >annamanna (mutuality)
                                        > >nisaya (support)
                                        > >indariya (chief in its functions?)
                                        > >atti (still there?)
                                        > >avicata (not gone yet?)
                                        > >possibly vipaka (results)
                                        > >
                                        > >phassa is a pacaya for vedana in the following ways:
                                        > >sahajata (conascence condition)
                                        > >sampayutta (association)
                                        > >annamanna (mutuality)
                                        > >nisaya (support)
                                        > >ahara (brings forth results?)
                                        > >atti (still there?)
                                        > >avicata (not gone yet?)
                                        > >possibly vipaka (results)
                                        > >
                                        > >phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa
                                        > >possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object)
                                        > >possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara)
                                        > >possibly asevana (repeating in javana)
                                        > >possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise)
                                        > >possibly aramana (as sense object)
                                        > >possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?)
                                        > >possibly natti (not there?)
                                        > >possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?)
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > o.k. I've been prompted (read shamed) to do a little more study on
                                        > paccaya...yr detailed reply deserved it, so had a stint by the
                                        > swimmingpool
                                        > with my Guide to Patthana (PTS) which as Robert said, is v.helpful,
                                        > but
                                        > still doesn't give me all the answers...
                                        >
                                        > I agree with most of the above (read at a very intellectual level
                                        > either
                                        > agree or can't find sufficient reason to disagree!).
                                        >
                                        > now I hav a queery about nissaya just above related to phassa as
                                        > pacaya for
                                        > vedana arising after phassa. Accord. to The Guide, there are 4 kinds
                                        > of
                                        > nissaya, i.e.
                                        > 1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya
                                        > (base-object-prenascence-dependence0
                                        > 2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence)
                                        > 3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence)
                                        > 4.-sahajata-purwejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence)
                                        >
                                        > 1. can only be heartbase
                                        > 2. arising together and dependent on
                                        > 3. conditioning statew must be a material base
                                        > 4. a mix up
                                        >
                                        > pls explain what you had in mind as I know you've studied
                                        > v.carefully.
                                        >
                                        > >I am puzzled about your explanation of phassa as a pacaya for vedana
                                        > >arising after the phassa in the following ways:
                                        > >pacchajat (postnascence),
                                        > >sampayitta (association)
                                        > >
                                        > >As I understand, only nama can be a pachajata pacaya for a rupa that
                                        > >arises before it, and only namas arising at the same time can be
                                        > >sampayutta pacaya of each other. Would you please elaborate?
                                        > >
                                        > You are quite right about pacchajata- I had confused it with another.
                                        > This
                                        > is a very difficult condition for me to understand, but yr prompting
                                        > me to
                                        > spend time with the Guide has made it clearer. I especially liked an
                                        > analogy
                                        > used of vultures which, unlike other birds, eat all the food they
                                        > find and
                                        > don't bring any back to the chicks. they have to be encouraged to
                                        > crave for
                                        > the taste on a daily basis until they learn to fly...i.e. the craving
                                        >
                                        > supports them so they don't die of hunger ( read, I still have to do
                                        > mental
                                        > gymnastics to kind of get it!)
                                        >
                                        > >Thanks again for elaborating. I am in process of trying to learn
                                        > more
                                        > >about pacaya.
                                        > >
                                        > >kom
                                        >
                                        > Thank you, Kom, pls keep encouraging my study (read very intellectual
                                        > study
                                        > at best). But you know, a little seeps in and as R. said before, it
                                        > goes to
                                        > the heart of the anattaness of realities.
                                        >
                                        > One more qu. if you don't mind. Have you heard any discussion about
                                        > the
                                        > particular ofer of conditions....Is hetu 1st because it is considered
                                        > the
                                        > most important? Robert or Amara may have heard sth on this too.
                                        >
                                        > Sorry for being so slow.....I'm busy and needed a little lull in
                                        > posts to
                                        > read up!
                                        >
                                        > Sarah
                                        >
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                                      • Robert Kirkpatrick
                                        ... Indeed the hetu are very important. They include the dhammas that keep us in samasara -namely lobha and moha;and they include the dhammas that lead s out
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Oct 31 11:59 PM
                                          --- Kom Tukovinit <kom@...> wrote: > Dear Sarah,
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > I couldn't find the commentary related to my earlier saying
                                          > about A.
                                          > Santi's teaching the importance of hetu paccaya, so I would
                                          > classify my
                                          > earlier comments as being highly suspicious.
                                          >
                                          > Dear Kom,
                                          Indeed the hetu are very important. They include the dhammas
                                          that keep us in samasara -namely lobha and moha;and they include
                                          the dhammas that lead s out of samasara -amoha(panna) and
                                          alobha.
                                          Robert

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                                        • Sarah Procter Abbott
                                          Dear Kom, ... I m enjoying our paccaya (conditions) studies, even if I m a bit slow... I should have twigged you were talking about upanissaya paccaya
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Nov 2, 2000
                                            Dear Kom,

                                            >From: Kom Tukovinit <kom@...>

                                            >Dear Sarah,
                                            >
                                            >Here's what from NVG's Conditions (Chapter 8, page 67 [thanks to
                                            >Roberts]) about pakatupanissaya-paccaya.
                                            >
                                            >pakat�panissaya-paccaya. With regard to the third
                                            >decisive support-condition, pakat�panissaya-paccaya, the commentary
                                            >to the �Pa��h�na� (the Pa�cappakara�atthakath�) explains the term
                                            >�pakata� in pakat�panissaya. Pakata means done properly, done
                                            >thoroughly. Kusala and akusala which were �done thoroughly�, often
                                            >performed, can become firmly accumulated, they can become habitual.
                                            >In this way they are a cogent reason, a powerful inducement for the
                                            >arising of kusala and akusala later on, which are the dhammas
                                            >conditioned by them, the paccayupanna dhammas. Also external
                                            >conditions, such as temperature, food, dwelling place and friends one
                                            >associates with can be cogent reasons for the dhammas which they
                                            >cause to arise.
                                            >
                                            I'm enjoying our paccaya (conditions) studies, even if I'm a bit slow...

                                            I should have 'twigged' you were talking about upanissaya paccaya (decisive
                                            support condition ) and not nissaya paccaya as the latter made no sense in
                                            the context...

                                            I'm also looking at Nina's Conditions and the section on pakatupanissaya and
                                            am reflecting on the discussion with Leonardo about sila as there is a
                                            connction by pakatupanissaya for performing other kusala and developing
                                            wisdom... I'll quote (but excuse any changes as I'm quoting from an older
                                            (1990) edition of NVG's Conditions as haven't printed out the new one
                                            yet....it's rather spaced out for that):

                                            'Also connected with the term pakatupanissaya is 'pakati' which means
                                            naturally, by nature. The conditioning factor conditions other dhammas to
                                            arise naturally, and it can condition them without the assistance of
                                            decisive support condition of object or proximate decisive support
                                            condition. For example, when there is strong saddha, confidence in kusala,
                                            it can be a cogent reason for the arising of kusala citta without there
                                            being the need to be dependent on decisive support condition of object and
                                            decisive support condition of proximity. We read in the "Patthana"...,that
                                            one, by the strong dependence of confidence performs dana, sila, develops
                                            jhana, learning, generosity or wisdom one performs kusala or develops jhana,
                                            insight, the Path...'

                                            *****

                                            In other words all kinds of kusala can support each other by this condition.

                                            Thanks,
                                            Sarah
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                                          • Sarah Procter Abbott
                                            Dear Kom, ... o.k. we ve sorted this out & as i said, I should have realised this is what you were referring to! ... right you are! ... o.k., here goes. i m
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Nov 2, 2000
                                              Dear Kom,

                                              >From: Kom Tukovinit <kom@...>
                                              >Dear Sarah,
                                              >
                                              >I am sorry for the sloppy pali and english mix-up that I had; I still
                                              >haven't
                                              >looked at Nina's materials (have them on my computer now; thanks to
                                              >Robert), so I still don't know the right spellings. The "nisaya" that
                                              >was in
                                              >my earlier post, as below, is in fact a detailed classification of
                                              >"upanissaya"
                                              >pacaya: a mile apart from what my posting implied. There are three
                                              >detailed classification:
                                              >Aramanuapanissaya pacaya: upanissaya as sense object
                                              >Anatarupanissaya pacaya: upanissaya in the same way as anatara pacaya
                                              >Pakatupanissaya pacaya: upanissaya as something that gets accumulated
                                              >(???: I will search more on this for a better translation).


                                              o.k. we've sorted this out & as i said, I should have realised this is what
                                              you were referring to! >

                                              >Therefore, for phassa being pacaya for the vedana arising after it, it
                                              >is not a
                                              >nissaya pacaya, but it is a upanissaya pacaya.
                                              >
                                              right you are!

                                              >For the reference materials that I have regarding Nissaya pacaya, there
                                              >are
                                              >only three detailed classifications:
                                              > > 1.-vattharammana-purejata-nissaya
                                              > > (base-object-prenascence-dependence)
                                              > > 2.-sahajata-nissaya (conascence-dependence)
                                              > > 3.-vatthupurejata-nissaya (base-prenascence-dependence)
                                              >
                                              >I don't have the fourth one in the materials, and my understanding of
                                              >pali is
                                              >so superficial that I can't even guess what the fourth one is:
                                              > > 4.-sahajata-purejatamissaka (mixed conascence-prenascence)
                                              >I would really appreciate it if you elaborate on the 4th.
                                              >

                                              o.k., here goes. i'm relying on 'The Guide', the commentary to the
                                              "Patthana" (PTS) which has probably had more use in the last 2 wks than in
                                              its previous 20yrs on my bookshelf!

                                              This is a combination of 2. (sahajata niss.) and 3. (vatthupurejata niss.)
                                              above. I quote: '..since base is included, it is not pure conascence
                                              (sahajata niss.) and since mental aggregates are included, it is not pure
                                              prenascence condition (vatthupurejata niss,). Because the conascent mental
                                              aggregates and prenascent base are taken together as the conditioning
                                              states, it is known as mixed conascence-prenascence condition.'

                                              It seems that these conditions always take place at the same time.
                                              One example would be where a combination is taking place such as when
                                              visible object, eye-base and eye consciousness are related to the' 7 primary
                                              mental factors' (i.e. cetasikas) by a combination of all the nissaya above
                                              (1., 2. and 3.....I think!)

                                              I don't know if this helps......


                                              What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the vultures,
                                              is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and again i quote
                                              from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!):

                                              '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and its
                                              accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which have arisen
                                              previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not cause the
                                              arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these rupas have
                                              arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long as
                                              seventeen moments of citta.'

                                              '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on the
                                              previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing
                                              experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which does not
                                              last longer than seventeen moments of citta....'

                                              This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of condtioning later
                                              but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already arisen....

                                              Thanks for all yr yseful prompts, Kom...... you're really a fast learner (I
                                              don't just mean intellectually)!

                                              Sarah

                                              p.s. will you be joining the rest of the Bay group to Bkk & Cambodia? if so,
                                              I look f/w to further discussion on paccaya w/you & K.Sujin.
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                                            • Kom Tukovinit
                                              Dear Sarah, ... Thanks for clarifying the matter. However, I am still confused of how the fourth type of Nissaya pacaya works. The (rambling) reasons for
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Nov 2, 2000
                                                Dear Sarah,


                                                --- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@...> wrote:
                                                > o.k., here goes. i'm relying on 'The Guide', the commentary to the
                                                > "Patthana" (PTS) which has probably had more use in the last 2 wks
                                                > than in
                                                > its previous 20yrs on my bookshelf!
                                                >
                                                > This is a combination of 2. (sahajata niss.) and 3. (vatthupurejata
                                                > niss.)
                                                > above. I quote: '..since base is included, it is not pure conascence
                                                > (sahajata niss.) and since mental aggregates are included, it is not
                                                > pure
                                                > prenascence condition (vatthupurejata niss,). Because the conascent
                                                > mental
                                                > aggregates and prenascent base are taken together as the conditioning
                                                >
                                                > states, it is known as mixed conascence-prenascence condition.'
                                                >
                                                > It seems that these conditions always take place at the same time.
                                                > One example would be where a combination is taking place such as
                                                > when
                                                > visible object, eye-base and eye consciousness are related to the' 7
                                                > primary
                                                > mental factors' (i.e. cetasikas) by a combination of all the nissaya
                                                > above
                                                > (1., 2. and 3.....I think!)
                                                >
                                                > I don't know if this helps......

                                                Thanks for clarifying the matter. However, I am still confused of how
                                                the fourth type of Nissaya pacaya works. The (rambling) reasons for
                                                confusion are the followings:
                                                1) When discussing pacaya, the conditioning dhamma (paccaya) and the
                                                conditioned dhamma (paccayapanna dhamma) can be pinned down from both
                                                time and type. For example, phassa arising now is an ahara pacaya for
                                                the citta arising at the same time.
                                                2) This doesn't seem to be true to the 4th classification: I can't
                                                think of any pacaya dhamma than can be both sahajata (rupa nama being
                                                pacaya to rupa nama) and purejata (rupa being pacaya to nama) at the
                                                same time.
                                                3) Dhammas that can be Vathupurejata pacaya to nama are the base
                                                objects, but only the heartbase can be sahajata to the patisandhi
                                                nama. However, the heartbase can't be both sahajata and Vathupurejata
                                                pacaya to the same nama at the same time: it can be sahajata to
                                                patisandhi namas, and then Vathupurejata for different sets of nama
                                                arising after it.
                                                4) What I understand from your conclusion is that this particular
                                                condition MUST have multiple dhammas contributing as pacayas.
                                                5) This is certainly different from the explanations of other pacayas
                                                as the explanations follow rule 1) above.
                                                6) I think the other classifications of nissaya (sahajata,
                                                vathupurejata, vatharamanapurejata) have already covered the condition
                                                explained in sahajata-vathupurejata missaka.
                                                7) Possibly, this is the reason why other sources don't discuss these
                                                4th classification.
                                                8) Maybe Khun Amara, Robert, and others will help here!!!

                                                >
                                                >
                                                > What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the
                                                > vultures,
                                                > is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and again
                                                > i quote
                                                > from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!):
                                                >
                                                > '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and its
                                                > accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which have
                                                > arisen
                                                > previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not cause
                                                > the
                                                > arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these
                                                > rupas have
                                                > arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long as
                                                > seventeen moments of citta.'
                                                >
                                                > '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on
                                                > the
                                                > previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing
                                                > experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which does
                                                > not
                                                > last longer than seventeen moments of citta....'
                                                Yes, Nina mentioned that condition can be
                                                purejata (pre-nascence)
                                                sahajata (conascence)
                                                paccajata (post-nascense)

                                                Besides the time of arising, the pacaya can also be:
                                                atthi (presence-condition)
                                                natthi (absence-condition)
                                                vigata (disappearance [gone])
                                                avigata (non-disappearance [still there])

                                                Just the combination of the jata and the
                                                presence/absence/disappearance/non-disappearance alone is already mind-
                                                boggling! A. Santi mentioned once that there are 71 pacaya for the
                                                seeing citta. This doesn't include how citta is also pacaya for the
                                                cetasikas, cetasikas for cetasikas, citta to rupa, etc...


                                                >
                                                > This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of condtioning
                                                > later
                                                > but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already arisen....

                                                Dhammas can be pacayas in three different ways:
                                                1) cause of arising
                                                2) support/consolidating (no corresponding Thai translation???)
                                                3) both cause of arising and support

                                                >
                                                > Thanks for all yr yseful prompts, Kom...... you're really a fast
                                                > learner (I
                                                > don't just mean intellectually)!

                                                Thanks. I only quote from some books every time your prompt me.

                                                > p.s. will you be joining the rest of the Bay group to Bkk & Cambodia?
                                                > if so,
                                                > I look f/w to further discussion on paccaya w/you & K.Sujin.

                                                I am going through the infamous INS naturalization interview on Nov 16,
                                                making it impossible to make an advanced arrangement. Unless the
                                                interview goes well, AND there is still a space left [I think unlikely]
                                                in the tour group leaving for Cambodia, I won't be joining you.
                                                However, Khun Jack, Khun Oy, and Khun O are joining. Khun Jack is also
                                                particularly keen on the pacaya discussions; I believe he will be
                                                asking for Tan A. Sujin to elaborate on the subject.

                                                Anumodhana



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                                              • amara chay
                                                ... Dear Sarah and Kom, I ve enjoyed your discussions very much but I have very little to add, except for this reminder from the Summary, Citta Chapter 13
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Nov 3, 2000
                                                  --- In dhammastudygroup@egroups.com, Kom Tukovinit <kom@a...> wrote:




                                                  > 8) Maybe Khun Amara, Robert, and others will help here!!!


                                                  Dear Sarah and Kom,

                                                  I've enjoyed your discussions very much but I have very little to add,
                                                  except for this reminder from the Summary, Citta Chapter 13 (p.248)
                                                  part IIa in the website:

                                                  Paccaya is a reality that benefits and assists other realities to
                                                  arise or maintain them according to the specific kinds of conditions.
                                                  Phassa-cetasika, for example, is not a lobha-cetasika, while both
                                                  phassa-cetasika and lobha-cetasika are paccaya beneficent to the
                                                  arising of other realities such as citta, cetasika and rupa. Since
                                                  the characteristics and functions of phassa-cetasika differ from those
                                                  of lobha-cetasika, the phassa-cetasika would be a different paccaya
                                                  from lobha-cetasika.

                                                  Phassa-cetasika is condition by being an ahara-paccaya. Ahara
                                                  is a reality that brings results but it is not so steadfast as to make
                                                  things flourish like the main root of a tree. While the realities
                                                  that are hetu are paccaya by becoming the causes, like the tap root.
                                                  Trees cannot flourish with the tap roots alone. There must be soil
                                                  and water as nutrients. But without this main root, the soil and
                                                  water cannot make the tree develop fully. Trees with tap roots would
                                                  flourish differently from plants without one in the same way. Other
                                                  realities than the 6 cetasika that are hetu are paccaya by being other
                                                  conditions and not hetu-paccaya.

                                                  The Patthana Book, which is the seventh and last book in the
                                                  Abhidammapitaka, manifests realities by their inter-conditioning: by
                                                  being different paccaya. The first paccaya is hetu-paccaya, which
                                                  shows the importance of realities that are hetu. At funerals when
                                                  bhikkhu intone the abhidamma, they begin with "hetu-paccayo", which
                                                  are lobha-hetu, dosa-hetu, moha-hetu, alobha-hetu, adosa-hetu and
                                                  amoha-hetu, to remind us that the realities that are causes for future
                                                  results as future lifetimes and beings, are the six cetasika, namely
                                                  lobha-cetasika, dosa-cetasika, moha-cetasika, alobha-cetasika,
                                                  adosa-cetasika and panna-cetasika.

                                                  Truly, each kind of reality is of its own specific importance.
                                                  The Buddha not only manifested one but many paccaya. Nor did he
                                                  merely manifest arammana that is paccaya for citta to arise and
                                                  experience it (the arammana) as the only "arammana paccaya" for the
                                                  citta. But he manifested each and every paccaya in detail for the 24
                                                  major paccaya as well as their minor paccaya.

                                                  Cakkhuppasada-rupa arises because of other paccaya than the
                                                  hetu- paccaya. And cakkhuppasada is, in turn, a paccaya by being the
                                                  reality that is eminent: the indriya-paccaya, or being paccaya by
                                                  being a reality that is predominant in its duty and function.
                                                  Cakkhuppasada is cakkhundriya, the rupa which is the principal in
                                                  being paccaya for cakkhu-vinnana to arise and see visual objects
                                                  through the eyes. Without cakkhuppasada, sotappasada, ghanappasada,
                                                  jivhappasada and kayappasada, what would this body be like? Like a
                                                  log that does not see, hear, smell, taste or know bodysense contact.
                                                  Therefore, the 5 pasada-rupa are paccaya by being indriya-paccaya or
                                                  eminent in their specific functions such as the cakkhuppasada-rupa
                                                  being predominant in coming into contact with ruparammana thus causing
                                                  cakkhu-vinnana to arise and see what appears through the eyes because
                                                  other rupa cannot perform this function. The object appearing through
                                                  the eyes could be clear or not depending on the state, the clarity of
                                                  the cakkhuppasada-rupa, which does not depend on cetana or desire or
                                                  intention of anyone but on the indriya-paccaya of seeing, namely the
                                                  cakkhuppasada-rupa.

                                                  All realities are paccaya for other realities to arise by
                                                  being diverse kinds of paccaya. (…)

                                                  (There are also other places where she talks about this.)


                                                  > > What i am much clearer on, since last posting the story about the
                                                  > > vultures,
                                                  > > is pacchajata-paccaya. Nina writes very clearly about this and
                                                  again
                                                  > > i quote
                                                  > > from my old copy (excuse my tardiness in this regard!):
                                                  > >
                                                  > > '..As to postnascence condition 9pacchajata paccaya), citta and
                                                  its
                                                  > > accompanying cetasikas consolidate the rupas of the body which
                                                  have
                                                  > > arisen
                                                  > > previously and which have not fallen away yet. citta does not
                                                  cause
                                                  > > the
                                                  > > arising of the rupas it conditions by way of post nascence, these
                                                  > > rupas have
                                                  > > arisen already. They are still present since rupa lasts as long
                                                  as
                                                  > > seventeen moments of citta.'
                                                  > >
                                                  > > '....Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it depends on
                                                  > > the
                                                  > > previously arisen eyebase which is also produced by kamma. Seeing
                                                  > > experiences visible object which has already arisen, but which
                                                  does
                                                  > > not
                                                  > > last longer than seventeen moments of citta....'
                                                  > Yes, Nina mentioned that condition can be
                                                  > purejata (pre-nascence)
                                                  > sahajata (conascence)
                                                  > paccajata (post-nascense)
                                                  >
                                                  > Besides the time of arising, the pacaya can also be:
                                                  > atthi (presence-condition)
                                                  > natthi (absence-condition)
                                                  > vigata (disappearance [gone])
                                                  > avigata (non-disappearance [still there])
                                                  >
                                                  > Just the combination of the jata and the
                                                  > presence/absence/disappearance/non-disappearance alone is already
                                                  mind-
                                                  > boggling! A. Santi mentioned once that there are 71 pacaya for the
                                                  > seeing citta. This doesn't include how citta is also pacaya for the
                                                  > cetasikas, cetasikas for cetasikas, citta to rupa, etc...


                                                  I think this is because of the parallel and unequal duration of the
                                                  rupa and the nama that experience them, so that the rupa, as fast as
                                                  the speed of light is (since light is also rupa), is 17 times the
                                                  duration of the nama. When they start off at the same time say in a
                                                  vithi process, there has to be the two extra tadarambana to make the
                                                  equation. When they start of at different moments, sometimes the
                                                  vithi ends up incomplete and inoperative. And because of their
                                                  unequal duration, and still are conditions for one another to arise, I
                                                  think that under some circumstances rupas could become both present
                                                  and future paccaya for nama, since, as Nina said, they last longer, so
                                                  that future rupa, born this instant, would not have fallen awan when
                                                  the co-nascent citta has, and becomes future paccaya for the
                                                  subsequent several citta in the process as well. (This gets even more
                                                  complicated with the sub moments of the duration of both realities as
                                                  well as multiplied by the meeeting of the ayatana through each dvara)

                                                  And then there are 24 major paccaya and I don't remember how much of
                                                  the detailed ones, in zillions of possible combinations!

                                                  > > This makes much more sense to me as it's not a matter of
                                                  condtioning
                                                  > > later
                                                  > > but 'consolidating' or experiencing that which has already
                                                  arisen....
                                                  >
                                                  > Dhammas can be pacayas in three different ways:
                                                  > 1) cause of arising
                                                  > 2) support/consolidating (no corresponding Thai translation???)

                                                  See the 'Summary' pages above in the Thai version,

                                                  > 3) both cause of arising and support

                                                  Khun Sujin has told Betty we would get to study the paccaya one day,
                                                  but we're still on other things at the moment, and the paccaya so
                                                  detailed and complex it might take some time. The main point is that
                                                  while one may never know, unless one were the Buddha, what exacty
                                                  causes and conditions this moment of seeing, one knows that it has
                                                  arisen from at least this or that number of major and minor paccaya,
                                                  and not because one made it happen or that some god did! All this
                                                  complicated conglomerations are not the self, they arise from
                                                  accumulated conditions.

                                                  Still it's so interesting trying to figure it out, isn't it? I really
                                                  look forward to reading more!

                                                  Anumodana to you both,

                                                  Amara
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